Let us talk about Navigation Lights and Anchor Lights

Moonstruck wrote:

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RickB wrote:

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Ooh, man that is salty sailor talk for sure*...
Yep, I'm thinking of getting some bigger air horns just to complete the ruse.

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Y'all know that Moonstruck is in Tennessee. *Confidentially, he emailed me today a link to the airhorn he really wants to put on his Sabre to "round out the experience" as he put it. *He mentioned something else about a paint job to change the hull color and welding the pilothouse door shut. *I am a little worried about what he is planning to do but here is a link to the horn he wants to install and a similar paint job I think...y'all tell me if it's a good idea or not???


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-- Edited by Woodsong on Monday 6th of December 2010 05:36:31 PM

Woodsong wrote:



Y'all know that Moonstruck is in Tennessee. *Confidentially, he emailed me today a link to the airhorn he really wants to put on his Sabre to "round out the experience" as he put it.**

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Shucks, Woodsong, you didn't have to tell all my secrets.* By the way did I ever tell you guys about my 12 point side lights?

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koliver wrote:

The two lights, stacked, indicate to a distant other boat that you are over 50m (164ft) long. Being vertically aligned, this behemoth is coming right at them, and being bright (because you are fairly close to them) they have little time to get out of your way. They will eventually figure you out, but by then may need a change of pants.

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Actually there are several indications with two lights white over white.

If you follow the Colregs. Rule 23(a) If viewed from the bow you could be considered a Power Driven greater than 50 Meters.

*You could also be mistaken for a tow vessel greater than 50 meters engaged in a tow. rule 24(b).

then there is Rule 25(e) A motor sailer greater than 50 meters. All these are viewed from the bow

*I am not sure but if you added a green and another red light* you could be considered A submersible seaplane Pilot vessel engaged in mine sweeping with a trawl.

SD

skipperdude wrote:
*I am not sure but if you added a green and another red light* you could be considered A submersible seaplane Pilot vessel engaged in mine sweeping with a trawl.

SD

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Now, I'm looking for my Defender catalogue to order some more lights.* This boating could become an expensive hobby!

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Moonstruck wrote:

Yep, I'm thinking of getting some bigger air horns just to complete the ruse.

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I've ordered the D-1 Kahlenberg air horn to keep those 40-mph passenger ferries at bay.

http://www.kahlenberg.com/yacht.html

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-- Edited by markpierce on Monday 6th of December 2010 10:13:35 PM

markpierce wrote:

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I've ordered the D-1 Kahlenberg air horn to keep those 40-mph passenger ferries at bay.

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Mark, just stack 2 white lights.* The ferries will think that you are a big ship and get out of your way.

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-- Edited by Moonstruck on Monday 6th of December 2010 10:01:53 PM

Moonstruck wrote:

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Mark, just stack 2 white lights.* The ferries will think that you are a big ship and get out of your way.
I dunno.* They might think I'm much farther away than*I really am.* I'd need a much*taller mast.

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-- Edited by markpierce on Monday 6th of December 2010 10:06:36 PM

RED over RED "captain in the head"


R over R is a vessel out of control, should get their attention.

Mark, you sure are lucky.* I wish I had this kind of quality input when outfitting my boat!!!

The 2 masthead lights you are referring to are range lights and must seperated to form a range.
When viewed from ahead they appear " stacked " , when seen from the side they can tell dirrection of travel (lower light fwd). These lights can be seen further away than the side lights. If your 2 white lights are over each other, then they can be mistaken for a tow alongside or pushing ahead.
If there is an accident, a board of inquiry can (an will) deem the offending vsl as "un seaworthy"
if showing the incorrect running lights. The paperwork that comes with running lights usually has the coast guard compliance proof that will suffice to "prove" the lights comply.
In this age of lawsuits over "hot" coffee and burgers made me fat- why take chances?

I'll bet the average recreational boater has no idea what the different light arrangements mean other than the standard all around white and the red and green lights and that the boaters who do know the difference are piloting ships with radar and AIS and don't need to identify the lights.

I agree with Jack. Just because you THINK they look like one light, you could really put yourself in a pickle jar if there is a crash.

Anyway, I am in the process of replacing all of my nav lights as a winter project (not like I do any navigation at night, yet) and got a lot of flack about the way it's configured as being wrong or not needed. But I have a steaming light on the front face of the flybridge (actually it's a masthead... just not on a mast) and a stern light located on the back of the radar arch. It's about 4' higher than the forward light. There is also a separate all-around anchor light that is on a breaker by itself and I only use... well... when at anchor.

The guys gave me a bunch of grief saying that I shouldn't have a forward facing white light because other boats woulf think they were seeing the stern. But isn't it technically either supposed to be an all-around light or a masthead/stern light? So they would always be seeing some form of white light from ahead regardless. I looked it up... it's funny that people that have been boating many, MANY years longer than I can be so wrong about such an important and basic thing.

My other question is if it's ok for the stern light to be so much higher than the forward (masthead) light? I was thinking about moving it to the rearward-facing edge of the sundeck. It would be a huge pain, but I want it to be correct.

-- Edited by GonzoF1 on Tuesday 7th of December 2010 07:56:47 AM

koliver wrote:

The two lights, stacked, indicate to a distant other boat that you are over 50m (164ft) long. Being vertically aligned, this behemoth is coming right at them, and being bright (because you are fairly close to them) they have little time to get out of your way. They will eventually figure you out, but by then may need a change of pants.

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I believe you misinterpret the rules here. A vsl over 50m has to carry two masthead lights. The rules specifically states a shorter vsl may do so.
So, if you see a vsl steaming straight at you and you only see one masthead light this will probably be a vsl shorter than 50m.
If you see two masthead lights, this could be a*vsl of any length or even a tug with a total length of tug and barge less than 200m

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GonzoF1 wrote:


The guys gave me a bunch of grief saying that I shouldn't have a forward facing white light because other boats woulf think they were seeing the stern.

My other question is if it's ok for the stern light to be so much higher than the forward (masthead) light? I was thinking about moving it to the rearward-facing edge of the sundeck. It would be a huge pain, but I want it to be correct.

-- Edited by GonzoF1 on Tuesday 7th of December 2010 07:56:47 AM

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From the front*they would be seeing a white with a red and green on either side.* That's not the stern.

I don't think tugs have there stern light on their transom.* It's up on the mast.* You will hit a lot of boat before you get to the stern light.

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From what I see in my area, lighting rules do not seem to be enforced. That's not to say we shouldn't have the correct and legal lighting on our boats, but there's a very good chance that the LEO who sees your boat navigating at night has less understanding of the lighting rules than you do.

I once anchored on a river overnight to watch the city's fireworks display. As you might expect, there were law enforcement boats from the city, the county, the DNR, and the USCG. I had my anchor light burning the entire night. After the show, the law enforcement boats left. At least six of them passed a raftup of three boats with no anchor light showing. Not a one stopped or even called out for them to turn on an anchor light.

My boat is legal with the exception of the coffee mug mentioned above. If there's another boat in the area, I will remove the mug. And as I posted above, proper lighting is in the works. I only have about three hours of nightime navigation in nearly three years anyway.

They would not necessarilly see the red and green from the front- remember the whit lights are visible from a graeter distance than the side lights. Watch a merchant ship on the horizon, as it gets closer you see the red and green significantly later than the range lights.

On another note, it is irrelevant if a recreational boater can identify the lights or not. The rules are to identify vsls and scenarios of operations. hopefully they can be identified enough to keep clear if in doubt. That is like saying we don't need street signs because some people are illiterate!
Ais and radar are important tools to identify vsls and ATON but they aren,t required equipment.
The required light displays have to be able to be identified by everyone- not just ships/pilots/commercial mariners etc.

Sailor of Fortune wrote:

They would not necessarilly see the red and green from the front- remember the whit lights are visible from a graeter distance than the side lights. Watch a merchant ship on the horizon, as it gets closer you see the red and green significantly later than the range lights.

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I agree Jack,*

But for the most part where*Gonzo and I*operate the curve of the deck is more relevant than the curve of the*earth.* Here in the Pamlico*- Albemarle*Sounds and ICW we can see all of them long before we have to worry abut if we are going to hit them.

And I agree stay clear is the best thing to do if you can.* Gross tonnage is the rule that trumps all others.

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This has been a fun and interesting discussion* I have not really done anything yet.* I am in the process of installing snap davts to carry the dinghy on the platform.* This will obscure the stern light

One solution would be to disable the steaming light and use the anchor light.* Because of the length of the boat, it doesn't work.* The steaming light has to be 3 miles.* The anchor light is 2 miles.* Another solution would be to turn the steaming light into a 360 light.* Aqua Signal does not have a 3 mi. 360 light to fit my configuration.* It looks as if there will have to be another stern light added.* It would have to go at the rear of the hardtop overhang or on the back of the mast.* I prefer not to do that.

A good solution would be a battery powered LED stern light mounted on the upper dinghy side.* I don't know of one.* Another possile solution would be to mount a removable stern light on the upper dinghy side with a wire goling to a plug nest to the present stern light

I'm sure some of you must have faced the same dillema.* Any suggestions?

-- Edited by Moonstruck on Tuesday 7th of December 2010 12:17:33 PM

If you are studying for a captains exam.
Lights and day shapes are a large percentage of the test score.
Chapmans has some pretty good info on the lighting requirements.

It is all about being safe on the water.
The COLREGS and Rules of the road. Including inland.

Read them.
Know them.
Live them.

Har har.

Now what about day shapes and how to use your horn and bell.

Push da button. Pull da string

SD

-- Edited by skipperdude on Tuesday 7th of December 2010 12:35:02 PM

skipperdude wrote:
Now what about day shapes and how to use your horn and bell.

SD

-- Edited by skipperdude on Tuesday 7th of December 2010 12:35:02 PM

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Diamonds are a girls best friend.* Even on the water.

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-- Edited by JD on Tuesday 7th of December 2010 02:45:49 PM

West marine and others have vinyl stick on reference cards that are very handy to have at the helm station to identify lights and day shapes. Also a copy of CG 169 should be aboard (Rules). it makes good reading if you can't fall asleep at night!

Moonstruck wrote:"This has been a fun and interesting discussion* I have not really done anything yet.* I am in the process of installing snap davts to carry the dinghy on the platform.* This will obscure the stern light

It would have to go at the rear of the hardtop overhang or on the back of the mast.* I prefer not to do that."

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Moonstruck, I would definitely place it on the rear of your hard-top.* I have mine set in a similar on the rail at the back of the upper deck, and there is is never obscured.* I think if one is serious about being set up for night navigation, with boats the size we are discussing, even if an all round white can be used, I don't think it should, and I would go for the proper for'd running light, and stern and side lights as a minimum.




The above makes it pretty clear.

West Marine and other marine stores have quick reference sheets that I keep close to the helm.* Lights, day shapes, bouys, rules of the road.**


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We get quite a bit of morning fog so many times have to run with the radar, and we try to stay far enough a way you can NOT see their lights of day markers.* We do not have AIS, but I have marine traffic for the area running that you can see the bigger boats/ships that do have AIS.** http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/ **So between the radar and the AIS site we at least can see the bigger boats/ships.* However, ever there are still the smaller recreation boats to be concern about

Phil Fill wrote:

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West Marine and other marine stores have quick reference sheets that I keep close to the helm. Lights, day shapes, bouys, rules of the road.
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We get quite a bit of morning fog so many times have to run with the radar, and we try to stay far enough a way you can NOT see their lights of day markers.We do not have AIS, but I have marine traffic for the area running that you can see the bigger boats/ships that do have AIS.http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/ So between the radar and the AIS site we at least can see the bigger boats/ships.However, ever there are still the smaller recreation boats to be concern about
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Yes, marinetraffic.com is great but its no help if one doesn't have wireless internet reception is it?

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marinetraffic.com also does not cover all areas. It does not cover my area, that's a shame.

$400 or so will get you a new VHF radio with a built in AIS receiver.

I think that I have made a decision on the stern light-------maybe------at least temporarily.* Really the final decision will have to wait until it is determined if the overhang on the hard top is accessible for running a wire.* It seems the best solution is a flush mounted stern light on the hardtop.

Thanks for the input.

Regarding knowing what lights mean what, this is a tool that can come in handy if one runs at night in areas with different kinds of boat traffic. We have one although we almost never run at night. http://www.fisheriessupply.com/productgroupdetail.aspx?cid=10326

You*align the slot over the light pattern you see and then read what the lights signify on on the other end of the tool. There is a built in magnifier strip to make it easier to read the description.



-- Edited by Marin on Wednesday 8th of December 2010 07:01:15 PM

Marin:

That's one hell of a good suggestion! I'm going to get one for myself!

It seems the best solution is a flush mounted stern light on the hardtop.


Get a Euro style , Bosch or similar the small crap Perko sells is not legal outside US waters.

If it has a fancy focused ($10.00) bulb instead of a car tail light bulb , you got it right.

Well my new all around white light masthead light arrived yesterday in the mail. I am going to terminate the transom light and switch to the all around masthead light for both nav and anchor (with red/green nav lights obviously off when anchored!). Due to the existing wiring on our mast and the fact that the dinghy blocks the transom light it seems the best solution to make sure we are compliant with USCG rules and safe on the water. This thread has been very "enlightening," no pun intended. Ok, maybe the pun is slightly intended but not fully intended.