Anchor rode question.....again

manyboats said:

Re FFs post #206.


But the real reason for the high popularity of chain has mostly to do with deploying and retrieving the anchor and rode. IMO.

Click to expand...

That's certainly a benefit but I've never heard or read of that being given as the main reason for chain.

Over the years--- even way back when we bought our 17' Arima and the dealer answered our "what kind of anchor should we get" question----the reason given to use a length of chain between the anchor and the line in a combination rode is to prevent chafing, wear, fraying and eventual parting of the line against the bottom as the boat moves around.

So how much chain? The answer I've always seen or heard is "use the same amount of chain as the boat is long." I don't know that there's any scientific reason for this, but it's an easy formula for everybody to remember.

The other advantage of a length of chain between the anchor and the line rode is that it's weight will help lower the angle of pull on the anchor as we have discussed in this thread previously.

I'm sure if one had a heavy-enough anchor one could dispense with the chain altogether as far as any concern about the angle of pull is concerned. But the issue of abrading and fraying the rode against the bottom as the boat moves around remains.

So one would want enough chain that, as the boat moved around, even without much pull on it the pull would be enough to pick up the end of the chain so the only thing dragging around on the bottom is the chain.

If you mean the high popularity of an all-chain rode, the ease of deployment and recovery using a powered windlass is certainly a nice benefit. But as I've stated earlier in the discussion, we elected to use all-chain because it helps the anchor stay put. If we thought a combination rode was the better way to go, we could use it with no problem. Our windlass has a line gypsy and we could pull (or let out under power) a long rope rode as easily as an all-chain rode other than I'd have to be involved with the process by tailing the windlass.

Hi Marin,
Your post above apparently dismisses the thought of using no chain as the third paragraph begins w "So how much chain?". As if paragraph #2 explains that .. it dosn't. It only states what we've done. Are you assuming that that is correct? It appears so. I've had my nylon rode for quite a number of years w/o even turning it around. A bit stained is all that seems to be wrong w my rode. To replace small sections of it at times would be easy and inexpensive.

In your paragraph #5 you submit that increasing the anchor weight to make up for the catenary advantage seemingly would work (as I've said for years) but then dismiss it because of the assumed abrasion issue. I don't think the abrasion issue is worth talking about. Ask FF how long his line lasts .. how much it costs and how easy it is to handle.

I suspect we're doing a lot of stuff .... just because. That's how women tend to explain things they don't understand.
Anchor manufacturers recommend chain because it is commonly thought to be the most secure way to get the job done. Why take a chance? The lawers are waiting for someone to screw up.
And if you're new to boating .. again .. why take a chance?
It looks like nobody really knows and most everybody is hiding behind chain knowing that's probably the path of least resistance and a minimal chance for doing wrong or giving bad advice.

I may choose all or 30% chain over all line to keep my boat from stinking due to too much organic stuff on the line. Chain has the advantage there dosn't it?

I'm still on the edge of having a 14lb anchor w high enough performance and practically no chain so I could easily hand pull my rode. Smile.

Eric, Forgive me for coming on strong, but I've been sitting on the sidelines for a while watching you advise the unadvisable and just have to speak up in the hopes that someone doesn't get hurt or worse.

manyboats said:

Well if chain isn't't necessary why are all these guys using chain?

I think skippers think it helps the anchor hold the boat. I do but the question never asked is to what degree the chain increases the performance of the anchor. Would a 10lb increase in anchor weight make up for 100lbs of chain?

Click to expand...

You assess the issue from the narrowed perspective of a guy who doesn't have a windlass capable of lifting chain, so you have a natural bias against it. You can't lift it so you want to rationalize the fact that you don't have it.

Show me ONE anchor manufacturer who states his anchor performance is not improved by chain and I'll start listening to your insistence that it doesn't matter.

manyboats said:

There hasn't been much response to the question I posted asking if anyone anchored w/o chain. I know many like me use very little chain and seem not to suffer from the lack of it. I think there are tests or performance reports that indicate chain is very important to anchor performance. Perhaps it has to do w short scope performance of numerous anchors. Chainless anchoring may only be practical w anchors that are good w short scope rodes.

But the real reason for the high popularity of chain has mostly to do with deploying and retrieving the anchor and rode. IMO. For vessels over about 30' line handling becomes difficult.

Click to expand...

Folks with proper terminal tackle equipment and capable windlasses want gear that is safe and easily deployed and retrieved. Chain allows that. Who else recommends chainless anchoring? No one with any anchoring credibility that I know.

manyboats said:

FreshAlaska uses polypropylene line for anchoring. I see a possible significant advantage to poly w an all line anchoring. It may keep the line off of the bottom enough to promote it's use over nylon. A clean rode is golden. Perhaps 20' of nylon and the rest poly could be the rode of the future?

Click to expand...

Poly line is very susceptible to UV deterioration. It has poor wear resistance. Those are not characteristics I'd want in my anchor rode. How many anchor manufacturers are recommending poly line as a well-suited anchor rode?

I get the feeling you want to argue established facts regarding anchoring knowledge just for the sake of argument. If you want to use the lightest of gear and cheapest of ropes as your rode and shun the collective knowledge of anchoring experts, well, it's your boat and your choice. Personally, I think it's foolish and unsafe. But I don't think it's a public service to those who come here for anchoring advice and shared wisdom to hear your latest anchor theory du jour presented by you as proven fact. It just ain't so!

You might be getting away with using marginal equipment in benign conditions, but if others adopt this as accepted practices, someone's likely to get hurt. I know everyone needs to take their internet advice with a grain of salt, but you might consider posting a warning on your posts that sing the praise of using lightweight gear on substandard rodes that these are your opinions alone and are not shared by anchoring professionals or other trawler operators.

I sincerely hope anyone reading this in the quest for anchoring knowledge will study accepted guidelines and advice provided by widely accepted sources such as Chapman's. Find what works for your conditions plus the unexpected curves that nature inevitably throws your way.

sunchaser said:

Peter

Does the D shackle have an equal or higher WLL limit than the chain? I prefer rated lifting alloy shackles for this application. Back to the chain is only as strong as its weakest link point Dbjangi made.

My Ultra swivel bent so two years ago I replaced it with a rated alloy shackle - amazingly no bad twisting issues arose in the all chain rode and easy enough to pull it onboard without the swivel.

Click to expand...

Sun, I can't remember what the rating for that long D, (which is why I call it a U), shackle is, but it is way heavier grade in weight and diameter than the chain attached to it, so I have no worries there.

freshalaska said:

Does anyone use all line anchor rode? Yes Eric we do on our boat in the Philippines. We used to use a short piece of chain but the chain I get here rusts so BAD I don't use chain unless I know we are in corals…...We always set out at least two anchors and if I expect a big blow three anchors. No windless, my crew does it all by hand, which is how the ever have done it. The rode are poly 1 inch and 1 1/4 inch. My crew likes some meat to get their hands on. Mostly because of sun UV they don't last long and one reason I like two anchors out, in case one rode fails.

Click to expand...

Freshalaska, reading your post I shuddered, when I thought of the hassle of putting out 2 or 3 anchors nearly every time and then manhandling them back aboard, especially with 50' boat. I take your point re the chain quality you might get locally, but it's hard to believe you could not get quality anchor type and rated chain imported, even by special order, and if I was you, and could possibly afford it, (and let's face it, renewing the poly rope all the time must get quite expensive), I would get some quality chain somehow, (make a trip to Aussie or NZ personally to get it if necessary), a suitable powered winch, and a Super Sarca anchor, and Bob's your uncle, you will find anchoring out a dream, with just the ONE anchor..! By all means have the Fortress in reserve, but you won't need it I suspect, and if you encounter a lot of reefs and coral, the tripping mechanism would be a real boon there as well. I'm serious…but...

"But the real reason for the high popularity of chain has mostly to do with deploying and retrieving the anchor and rode. IMO. For vessels over about 30' line handling becomes difficult."

Actually my bride does much of the anchor recovery . She is an ex sailor so has no problem laying a single turn on the spinning capstan, and adding another loop if the line starts to slip with her light pull.

If the anchor line does have a bit 10 ft or so of chain , she simply makes sure there is only one turn on the capstan and it doesnt mind a bit at hauling chain instead of line.

The line is figure 8ed on deck so replacement (or recycling as dock line ) is more a sun exposure deal than a wear deal.

Of course we anchor O nite , not for months with the same anchor set.

Should any wear be seen at the anchor end , cutting off a 3 ft piece and another bowlin doesn't take long.

FlyWright said:

Find what works for your conditions plus the unexpected curves that nature inevitably throws your way.

Click to expand...

Eric often speaks of taut line mooring systems using vertically loaded anchors and elastic mooring lines.

Chain proponents generally speak of catenary mooring systems using drag embedment anchors.

Y'all aren't even speaking the same language.

FlyWright wrote,
"I get the feeling you want to argue established facts regarding anchoring knowledge just for the sake of argument."
Of course.
You call it "argument" I call it discussion. And "established facts" may not be correct or true over time. Established facts have changed re anchoring small boats since the combination gypsy came about. And if the "facts" are true they need to be shown to be so ... not just because everybody says so. What is a forum for? ..... discussion and finding or re-establishing norms and the discovery of truth IMO. By discussing established "facts" and turning them around looking at them w an open mind much could or may be learned. Like the "facts" are good and can be taken to the bank. One dosn't learn by doing what so and so says. We could arrive at ... OMG it looks like we've been do'in this for all these years and there's no need. As time marches on if you don't inventory what you have and accept at this time you may go astray very soon.

I know poly dosn't stand up to UV and my perspective is probably wider as I'm willing to question things ... everything if there seems a need. If there's enough objective discussion we will arrive on the same page speaking the same language. And everyone can share the knowledge put together by many and from many observations.

I know (because I know him) that Peter B shares your opinion. Just look what he said to FreshAlaska. FreshAlaska is doing what is established as the accepted norm where he lives. If I went there and told him he should use chain or nylon and he did what you're suggesting I do .. he'd be using poly forever. What I don't like about Pertr's post is the "get real and do it like we do" tone. He's basically a newbie and shouldn't be talked down to by the moderators.

Progress is made by questioning things but one needs to be objective in one's questioning and about one's answers. Al if you want me to limit my talk here to supporting only established norms TF will be way too dull for me and I 'll move along with or without your input. Talking about possibilities opens the door to progress and learning. Pushing it away invites another dark age.

manyboats said:

Talking about possibilities opens the door to progress and learning. Pushing it away invites another dark age.

Click to expand...

Eric--- While I believe many of your anchoring theories are not viable in reality I do agree with your statement above. If you have not seen this, you might appreciate this General Electric Commercial titled 'Ideas are Scary." Great concept and execution.

[URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfmQvc6tB1o

In response to Peter B
First off I can't afford the expense of chain, windless and more batteries to power it plus heavy gauge wire to the front of my boat. I can barely afford the two boats I have now.
Anchoring here is a joy. I have two paid crew members who take pride in their job and the only way they have ever hauled an anchor is by hand. They don't break down and are very affordable. My boat in Alaska has all chain rode and a windless and just setting and retrieving one anchor is not any easier then doing two anchors here in the Philippines by hand. I never leave the pilot house. My Banca here only draws around 1 meter of water and we mostly anchor in shallow water. Poly line is very readily available here at roughly 1/3 the price of nylon, I buy it in 220 meter spools. To import things into this corrupt country is not to be taken lightly, and fly to New Zealand or OZ to get chain you got to be kidding. Why put things on your boat that would be hard to replace. To each his own, my system for where I'm at and my budget works really good and I'm perfectly satisfied with it.

Two years ago we where in a big blow at night, worse then predicted. blew around 50 knots and about half the yachts here dragged. One ran into another boat and did damage and one went up on the beach with the high tide. It was so dark and very hard rain to see what the other boats where all doing but the they, some, where moving and re anchoring. We never had a problem even when the wind switched 180 degrees.

You know some big fishing boats here, like 100 feet or so start their big diesel engines by hand. They take a big thick probably poly line and some how wrap it around the engine and like 7 guys inline, like tug of war, pull it a couple of feet to pop off the engine.

Yes I hear you Eric people have a hard time to think out of the box. People are sheep they like to follow.

freshalaska said:

...Anchoring here is a joy. I have two paid crew members who take pride in their job and the only way they have ever hauled an anchor is by hand. They don't break down and are very affordable. My boat in Alaska has all chain rode and a windless and just setting and retrieving one anchor is not any easier then doing two anchors here in the Philippines by hand...

Click to expand...

The reduced rode to recover by virtue of reduced depth must help but the load on the backs of workers effecting manual anchor recovery would worry me. I`m familiar with Philippines labor conditions.
Peter, a Ronstan ss 3/8" long dee has an "ultimate strength" rating of 5579kg, 1/2 inch is 8618kg.

freshalaska said:

In response to Peter B
First off I can't afford the expense of chain, windless and more batteries to power it plus heavy gauge wire to the front of my boat. I can barely afford the two boats I have now.

Anchoring here is a joy. I have two paid crew members who take pride in their job and the only way they have ever hauled an anchor is by hand. They don't break down and are very affordable.

Click to expand...

Ok, now I understand. If it works for you, for sure, keep doin' what you're doin'. I was just thinking it sounded like it made anchoring out just too hard. But with the hired help doing the hard yakka, then fine…gives then work I guess. However, as an aside, so to speak, wouldn't the cost of the hired help over time roughly equal the cost of the heavier gear one could deploy & recover on your own..? I was also thinking of the convenience issue of crew not being available every time when you needed them..? I suppose it's the old 'horses for courses' thing, eh..?

BruceK said:

Peter, a Ronstan ss 3/8" long dee has an "ultimate strength" rating of 5579kg, 1/2 inch is 8618kg.

Click to expand...

Thanks Bruce. Mine is the ½ inch…should be strong enough for the job, don't you think..?

Peter B said:

Thanks Bruce. Mine is the ½ inch…should be strong enough for the job, don't you think..?

Click to expand...

It should. I could not get the long dee 1/2" over the 20mm shank of my Sarca, so I`m leaving the normal 1/2" shackle and will try replacing the swivel with a 3/8 long dee, I`ll see if that works. The 15mm $105 Ronstan shackle I did not buy has 13 ton capacity! Some shackle!

If you look at the picture you can see why 98% of the time the chain anchor and rode I use and most of the many hundreds of boats within 50 miles of mine is over kill. Under the conditions of common anchorage a clothing line tied to a small anchor with a bowline would suffice. My feeling is where you anchor is 80% of the equation the next 15% is how you do it leaving 5% for what anchor or rode. If you choose to anchor out in the open with big waves or under high wind and storm conditions well then arguments about what works best have some merit. Otherwise almost everything works if you use it well.

Today I recieved my barrel of 5/16 3B chain. A barrel is 550 feet and about 645lbs. Squaring up the windlass then I am going to measure and mark the chain. My bow rides high in the water, so this amount of chain should not affect the boat. Oh and made in the great USA!

A few more