Redesigning the Pilgrim 40 Trawler / Canal Boat

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REALMOUNTIE,
Thanks for the video.
Really liked watching the wake of this wonderful hull.
 
KSS Seminar - Photos and Videos (unedited)

brian eiland said:
If you combine this quote of mine, along with my previous posting #109....

Take into consideration these two postings, and then read a first hand account of a fellow (JAM) who just recently attended one of Kelsall's workshops
Click to expand...

For those of you who might find the photos and video of this KSS building system seminar of interest, here is the latest posting by John Metza over on that multihull forum:

Since I only got a couple of request to see the files before I posted them I was going to just add those email addresses to the share list. But since I posted the files I have gotten more than 50 more requests so I changed the sharing type on the folder to be available to anyone with this link. Thus it now functions similar to DropBox. These image files are high resolution so you can zoom in on photos to see details. The videos are even bigger of course.

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B8F19GqZmyhoUXBma1NUblo2Umc&usp=sharing

Since I have not had time to edit them or label them, viewing by time stamp (file name) my be the best way to put things in order. If you hover over the icon in the upper right that is composed of 6 horizontal lines you will see that it is named LIST VIEW, that will let you see the full file names better. You can decode the file names as follows:

IMG_20140911_122657_726 = Media recorded Sept 11, 2014, 12:26 PM and 57.726 seconds.

There is a download button too. Feel free to do anything you want with them. Questions welcome, I know before the seminar I would have no idea what is going on!

jam
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SCOTTEDAVIS said:
I thought all of the P-40's had the ladder to the roof to the right of the sliding doors.
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Just to clear up this ladder subject, what I was commenting on Scotte was a second ladder up front:
drf6 said:
Pilgrim #9, #10 and #18 (possible others) had the second ladder to the boat deck behind the starboard side pilot house door.
Click to expand...
 
Centerline Queen Berth

Ron T said:
I was in Indian Town , Fl. and saw a Pilgram out of the water. Very nice hull. I am thinking about a vessel like her for just ICW and protected water cursing. ..... Do any have center line queens forward.
Click to expand...

I was also wondering about how this might be accomplished on the 'redesigned' Prigrim. I think it would be an appealing feature.
 
The design of the bed placement has leg room on three sides. One cannot stand upright except on the forward side of the bed. Sitting up in the bed has never resulted in me hitting my head. One would be hard pressed to make better use of space under the pilot house sole.
 
Any of you Pilgrim guys want to trade down ,I'm ready:)
 

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brian eiland said:
Just to clear up this ladder subject, what I was commenting on Scotte was a second ladder up front:
Click to expand...

The ladder near the sliding door was my idea and put on my boat as a custom option at factory. the ladder incorporated the SS roof support strut.The reason for the ladder was that I single handed and wanted a fast way to get off FB and down to the spring line. This ladder may have been copied on other boats.
 
Pilgrim 40 Drawings

Can anyone please direct me to the general drawings of the Pilgrim 40. I think I saw a page containing them once, but I cannot find them now.

Thanks,

Wheatear:confused:
 
All Pilgrim 40 are classics and do have a certain « Je ne sais quoi » (I don't know what)

Our 1986 Pilgrim 40 will be soon considered in Florida state as being eligible for registration as an “antique vessel”, being a 30 year old boat.
I keep a log of maintenance on our boat as we all know that restorations of old boats that were not well maintained over the years are very costly.

I am in the opinion that person who choose to buy a Pilgrim 40 at low cost may find out the hard way as it is just as expensive and may be more expensive refit even if you make a good deal on a fixer upper.

Most surveyors will say that you cannot refit on the cheap. Money being the name of the game. Remember Quality Vs Quantity, this why quality boats like Hatteras, Tiara, Bertram and Viking cost so much is because of the quality materials that go into their construction.

If you haven't got it, I think you must give close consideration to Refit costs VS Resale value.

It might be a mistake for the old boat buyer making an underestimate of putting things back in order in shape.

There is a rule of thumb to allow 50% of a boat cost (in above average condition) for a 100% in poor condition.
This depends on the relationship between replacement value cost (500,000$) for a Pilgrim 40 and the average market asking price depending on equipment options (from 99,000$, 138,000$ and more as listed on the spread sheet of Dates and Listed Prices for Pilgrims dating back as far as 2009).

I am in agreement with my good friend Mike. You do not recover your costs with a new Pilgrim 40.
You do not recover your costs with a new boat, at the same time, you will not recover your costs with a refurbished used boat either.

Pilgrim 40 have enjoyed an excellent reputation, they are not an investment, they are a luxury item for your own pleasure.
While I expect to get more than what I paid, it may not be all that much more.

The questions remains here:

Q1: How much a buyer or owner is willing to spend, now, towards making a Pilgrim 40 looking and function like new?
Q2: How much any available Pilgrim 40 will be worthed in 5, 10, 15 years?
 
For a Pilgrim, I'd force myself to do without the flying b ridge. Have a sliding roof over the helm if you simply must have fresh air.
 
REAL MOUNTIE said:
All Pilgrim 40 are classics and do have a certain « Je ne sais quoi » (I don't know what)

I owned one and lived aboard for a while and I know What. The P40 is a lovely boat and very efficient. The What is a real roll and I am not talking about something you buy at the bakery. Anyone who is serious about redesigning the P40 should make sure they address that issue or confine the boat to quite no wake water.
Click to expand...
 
eyschulman said:
REAL MOUNTIE said:
All Pilgrim 40 are classics and do have a certain « Je ne sais quoi » (I don't know what)

I owned one and lived aboard for a while and I know What. The P40 is a lovely boat and very efficient. The What is a real roll and I am not talking about something you buy at the bakery. Anyone who is serious about redesigning the P40 should make sure they address that issue or confine the boat to quite no wake water.
Click to expand...

here is a P40 here at the Marina he spends a few months on the hook and then comes in for a week or so to the dock to do his work

he told me recently that he now stays on the inside when cruising

it is a beautiful boat and this guy sure takes care of it
Click to expand...
 
I agree. All Pilgrim 40 do roll unless You install stabilisers. I guest we all adapted to this fact and secure objects appropriately.
 
REAL MOUNTIE said:
All Pilgrim 40 are classics and do have a certain « Je ne sais quoi » (I don't know what)

Our 1986 Pilgrim 40 will be soon considered in Florida state as being eligible for registration as an “antique vessel”, being a 30 year old boat.
I keep a log of maintenance on our boat as we all know that restorations of old boats that were not well maintained over the years are very costly.

I am in the opinion that person who choose to buy a Pilgrim 40 at low cost may find out the hard way as it is just as expensive and may be more expensive refit even if you make a good deal on a fixer upper.

Most surveyors will say that you cannot refit on the cheap. Money being the name of the game. Remember Quality Vs Quantity, this why quality boats like Hatteras, Tiara, Bertram and Viking cost so much is because of the quality materials that go into their construction.

If you haven't got it, I think you must give close consideration to Refit costs VS Resale value.

It might be a mistake for the old boat buyer making an underestimate of putting things back in order in shape.

There is a rule of thumb to allow 50% of a boat cost (in above average condition) for a 100% in poor condition.
This depends on the relationship between replacement value cost (500,000$) for a Pilgrim 40 and the average market asking price depending on equipment options (from 99,000$, 138,000$ and more as listed on the spread sheet of Dates and Listed Prices for Pilgrims dating back as far as 2009).

I am in agreement with my good friend Mike. You do not recover your costs with a new Pilgrim 40.
You do not recover your costs with a new boat, at the same time, you will not recover your costs with a refurbished used boat either.

Pilgrim 40 have enjoyed an excellent reputation, they are not an investment, they are a luxury item for your own pleasure.
While I expect to get more than what I paid, it may not be all that much more.

The questions remains here:

Q1: How much a buyer or owner is willing to spend, now, towards making a Pilgrim 40 looking and function like new?
Q2: How much any available Pilgrim 40 will be worthed in 5, 10, 15 years?
Click to expand...

Ted Gozzard built great boats. The sailboats are blue water classics. Some of us would give our eye tooth for a well maintained Pilgrim at a reasonable price.
 
This exercise in 'Redesigning the Pilgrim 40' may turn out to just be a mental exercise. It may never happen in reality, but it will be an interesting mental project.

http://pilgrim-trawlers.wikidot.com/[/QUOTE]

Not a redesign of the Pilgrim. I've always liked the looks of the Pilgrim 40, but I think I'd ultimately like a larger more commodious vessel. Here is my version, admittedly less graceful in hull. But I've always liked a boxy work boat aesthetic.

553 logo c.jpg

553 logo b.jpg

553 logo a.jpg
 
Tegdesign while the boat you show us may be a perfectly good boat I see little about it that would make me think P40 it is very much more like the garden variety trawler. I think the P40 from the waterline up is a great boat as is, some internal juggling of accommodation is acceptable but for me not needed. The only redesign I see the need for is the underbody. The American Tug and the Nordic Tugs have gone some way to address that they do no however have the full ambience of the P40 from the dock or looking out from the boat. Maybe all the P40 needs is a foot more keel and some anti roll wing fins or perhaps no deep keel and no fins and just a gyroscopic stabilization system. Remember the P40 was never meant as an open water boat and that I am very sure of since I had a long eye to eye talk with T.G. about that. Any redesign that would make the P 40 a open water boat would no longer be anything like a P 40. Any stabilization should be aimed at comfort from wake mainly not to handle big waves. That people take boats like the P 40 out in open big water and get away with it means little all kinds of unsuitable craft have made passages safely its just not what this boat was meant for nor is it wise to use it that way..
 
My first sentence after the quote really is specific That this it's not a redesign of the P40. You may not see the similarities in design language. Certainly different in function. My design isn't meant to be a copy or reproduction of any existing vessel. If I could add a hull appendage to an existing production boat to achieve my ideal boat wouldn't I be lucky!

Some people are quite literally minded. But design is subjective. For example to me Nordic and American tugs look like Roto molded kayaks and have the authentic street cred of a PT Cruiser.
 
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The Admiral and I have been upgrading our PILGRIM 40 ever since we purchased her in 2009.

We have nothing but a great experience cruising with her on the East coast and Lake Champlain during the summer boating season.

The sad part is that we as Canadians are limited for our enjoyment, we cannot cruise in USA inland water more than 183 days from a IRS fiscal impact (filing two income tax reports).

This why and with great regrets, in the next boating seasons, that we are thinking to prepare REAL MOUNTIE for sale to the right Crew in order for them to enjoy cruising. We will not give her away but we will sell her at the right price (235 K$US) without a Broker.


At the same Time, we will continue to enjoy her for the seasons to come.


What makes Pilgrim owner enjoyment in a 21th Century, where there are so many modern design motor vessels?

Why people will pay large amount of money for a motor vessel that will provide them enjoyment?

We live in a world where waste cost more than quality.

I believe that here is a cost to quality, design and you have to search for it. The concept of waste which is failry generic have been around for a long period of time in the boating industry.

This is why you pay double for a marine part, especially labor and pricing fluctuate upward.

This is why you have to replace or upgrade components to maintain process improvement. Some Japanese car manufacturer understood that process improvement in 1988 as the ¨war on waste¨ was well imbedded in their culture and behaviour.

After the 80's, we started to have different views on assets, boats, cars … Like sunglasses it varies differently in price and quality :

Because very few vessels last forever, one of the main principal view is accural accounting which requires that a motor vessel cost be proportionally expensed based on the time period over which the motor vessel was used…

Also depriciation, depreciation and amortization (as well as depletion) are the current methods that are used to prorate the cost of any specific type of motor vessel to its life.

These methods are calculated by subtracting the motor vessel's the salvage value from its original cost.

One of the waste was over-production of products and motor vessels.

There was only 41 Pilgrim 40 produced in Canada. Because of the construction quality, Ted Gozzard may he rest in peace, mentionned to Jim Elliot the last owner, that lost money selling his last Pilgrim 40… mainly because of inflating cost of quality material.

I think supply-and-demand model for a Pilgrim 40 makes potential buyers doing their research understanding the determination of the right price of quantity of a motor vessel sold on the yacht world market. This model applies most accurately when there is perfect competition.

It took two and a half years to find the right Pilgrim 40 for the quality and design at a fair price, and I am glad I have it. I am not in haste to sell it at this time.

This is why I will continue to enjoy our Pilgrim 40 couple more boating seasons on Lake Champlain.

Enjoyment of a Pilgrim 40 is priceless.
 
my Brother owned a nice 40' Pilgrim here in Texas that was lost in hurricane Ike. He loved it and so did I. Quiet performance, so nice to look at and nice lay out. Nice as a liveaboard for a couple and again so nice to look at!

Glen
 
My wife and I continue to search for the right P40. But with so few made it's more like waiting than searching.
 
tegdesign said:
My first sentence after the quote really is specific That this it's not a redesign of the P40. You may not see the similarities in design language. Certainly different in function. My design isn't meant to be a copy or reproduction of any existing vessel. If I could add a hull appendage to an existing production boat to achieve my ideal boat wouldn't I be lucky!

Some people are quite literally minded. But design is subjective. For example to me Nordic and American tugs look like Roto molded kayaks and have the authentic street cred of a PT Cruiser.
Click to expand...

Well I was being literal since this whole thread was about redesigning the pilgrim 40. Your boat looks nice and I have nothing against it but I cant relate it to a redesign of a P40 no more than my Devlin boat, for me definite apples and oranges.
 
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I was looking at addressing this rolling tendency of the original Pilgrim design by possible utilizing a harder chine design like the ones I sited in the posting below,...#221

also posting # 222



brian eiland said:
Man-Hrs for Steel Hull Construction (part 1) ....excerpt
.....Lets choose the hull design to be considered for this estimating exercise. The more I study the options, the more convinced I've become that the hull forms offered by the Florida Bay Coasters and the great Harbor Trawlers are a very favorable choice for this displacement speed Pilgrim. The hulls from both of these designs are very similar designs and have a documented favorable track record. Their hard chines, and considerable flat panel areas lend themselves to relatively easy fabrication in metal.



Look at a few of these hull cross-sections and photos.

First a few of the original Pilgrim design.
View attachment 24479
View attachment 24480
View attachment 24481

Then an overlaid depiction of that Pilgrim hull type, compared to the hard chine section of a Great Harbor hull.
View attachment 24482

Here are a few hull sections of the Fla Bay Coaster hard chine type
View attachment 24483

View attachment 24484


…..and some photos of these Fla Bay coaster hull types,
View attachment 24485
View attachment 24486
View attachment 24487
View attachment 24488


This is NOT a really difficult hull shape to build.....lots of 'flat' or single curvature panels, and no mult-chine.

I would likely go one step further and do a more complete review of a variation on the FBC hull design that Jay Benford did, his design #295, a “West Coaster” for a gentleman who lived in California. That client wanted similar livability, plus more ability to deal with open ocean cruising. To achieve this Jay modified the hull form, particularly in the bow, giving it a finer entry and more flare.​
Click to expand...
 
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Boat Building Market

I only wish the economics were better in the boat market, such that a project like this might go forward.

I think I have outlined a few construction methods and materials that could help keep the building cost down,...and a few methods that would limit the up-front investment in tooling for a limited production situation.

Regrettably I can not afford to go forward with such a project myself at this time. I'd love to have one of these vessels myself though. :socool:
 
Brian I also feel some kind of hard chine hull with a P40 on top of it would be a fair redesign. However if open big water use is not in the equation I would think a used P 40 with a retrofitted gyroscopic stabilization system might be cheaper have better resale and a very pleasant boat to live aboard. At anchor I would use flopper stopper cages they have no energy coat and while running where there is wake or wave action use the gyro system. Aside from the rolling the P 40 is a all around live aboard winner a really supper gunk holler.
 
Brian I almost had this boat built had preliminary plans and ready to go but the design started spiraling out of control because I wanted 7-16K cruise range. This boat was hard chine SD with many interior features planed from my P40 past experience.
 

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It would be quite a financial jungle to attempt to reproduce a Pilgrim 40 using the same quality wood finish...

The first production boat of the Pilgrim 40 Project started in January 1983.

The P-40 was designed by an Artist, Ted Gozzard (may he rest in peace) who expressed his natural talent and made the proof of concept (without using a computer).

He envisioned it three-dimensionally, drafted it, made a model, tooled and builded it to the finest carpentry detail that would be cost prohibitived today.

As inflation gained over during the late 80's, Ted did mentionned that he lost $50,000.00 Cdn when he sold his last Pilgrim 40 in 1989, he said : '' It is like tearing 10,000 five dollars bills...

Here is an example, on January 15 1987, in Annapolis, MD a Pilgrim 40 was sold for a delivery in May 1987, at that time one US dollar was $1.3615 CDN.

The standard cost of a Pilgrim 40 was $187,575.00 USD and additionnal equipment was $33,820.00 USD for a grand total of $221,395 USD. ($301,429 CAD)

If you use an inflation calculator on today's internet, calculate in USD the retail cost of a 1987 Pilgrim 40 @ $221,395: The same item would retail, TODAY @ 455,471.49$ USD ($581,591 CAD) a cumulative rate of inflation of 105.7%.

Source: Inflation Calculator | Find US Dollar's Value from 1913-2015

The boats themselves were created and built at North Castle Marine Ltd in Goderich, Ontario in the year 1982. The boat was marketed by "Pilgrim Marine Sales", of Toronto, Ontario.


The "Pilgrim 40" was put aside and no further vessels were constructed.


Many inquiries have been received by the Gozzard Family (Gozzard Yachts Brokerage - Gozzard Yachts Brokerage. ) over the years as to whether they shall ever re-introduce the "40 Motor Yacht"; their answer is still no. They would like very much to re-visit the subject of a small trawler type Motor Yacht, but as yet the "Pilgrim 40" molds still lay in their back yard!
 
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