You want how much?

Vashon_Trawler said:

I know this has been brought-up several times, but boat ownership has become out of reach for most of the middle class. I have reviewed the statistics and boat owners are becoming older and wealthier.

My parents earned a decent living back in the 80s and could afford a three bedroom house, two cars, and a trawler (three children as well). I remember the Florida ICW back then teeming with life: sailboats, small powerboats, trawlers, etc. Mom and Dad took two week vacations and weren't glued to the cell phone (yes they had one then) or laptop during their time off.

Fast forward to 2015... My wife and I earn a good living but we wouldn't dream of owning anything larger than Sherpa while working. I avoid debt, save for retirement, and pay with cash when at all possible. I can hardly take a few days off and work far, far more hours per week than my parents who were professionals as well. There is now an expectation today that one should work during vacation or not even take a vacation.

I was recently reading my Dad's old "Time Life" boating books (maintenance, navigation, and Handy Boatman). The photos from that time are very telling: young people owning boats and no obnoxious yachts.

Times are different. My generation will not be enjoying generous vested retirement plans, golf, and owning large boats in their later years. Instead, they'll be working until death.

Sorry for venting.

Click to expand...

I'm with ya, buddy.

But I'm satisfied with owning a boat that I admired as a teenager.

O C Diver said:

Was this held at the Harbor at Cape Coral per chance? Had my Cherubini on the same dock as their display boats last year. One of the salesmen said he could give me a great trade in on one of the 40 something foot boats. I forget what he said they sold for. Just laughed and kept walking. For that kind of money you could have a nice used boat, a house on a canal, a dock to keep the boat tied up to, and change back.a

Ted

Click to expand...

Yes Ted it was at the Harbor. Pleasant young 26yo was trying his hardest to take my Viking as well.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Trawler

1.6 for a "go-fast" basement boat is a lot of money. 700K will buy you a really nice trawler, real nice.......

My father bartered for a brand new 1969 Chris Craft Commander with the dealer. He built a breakwater for the dealer's marina. I wouldn't be able to own a boat if I didn't own a business. I get lots of fringes (vehicles, phones, computers, fuel, tools, etc.) or I could never afford my 30 year old boat. I do all the work myself too. My biggest expense is my slip rental. But if I had enough money for a new boat, I probably wouldn't buy one, A nice 5 year old boat would be fine.

Alaskan Sea-Duction said:

1.6 for a "go-fast" basement boat is a lot of money. 700K will buy you a really nice trawler, real nice.......

Click to expand...

The admiral and I call these "bubble boats" because of the silly fly bridge enclosed in plastic. They motor up to an anchorage with a 30-something with a pot-belly at the helm. Fortunately they usually have a couple of bikini clad hotties aboard to keep things interesting for us old codgers...you rarely see them north of Desolation Sound, where the average age of the boater goes up 30+ years.

A new build Krogen 48 will probably come close to matching, if not exceeding that Searay...guess which one I'll choose if I win the lottery! Guess which one depreciates faster!


Jim
Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum

Geez JD, what do you think of Bayliners and their owners?

AusCan said:

The margins may be high during low sales, if the number of sellers has decreased more.

Any way you look at it, the $ value dropping in half in a year is a big hit. Wow.

My guess is that people buying a new boat such as that, are likely those who have retired with more money than they are likely to spend in the rest of their lifetime. Maybe they are not overly experienced boaters. They are convinced by a salesperson that the boat is easy to handle with all the bells & whistles. They deserve a boat like this after working hard all their life, just to relax and enjoy life.

It soon becomes obvious that a 51 foot boat isn't as easy to handle as it was during the cruise from the sales dock on that perfect day. Perhaps it's downright stressful rather than relaxing. And the grandchildren get bored of it after a few outings. So it goes on the market along with a quite a few others in the same position. The market gets flooded. Supply & demand.

Click to expand...

Correct!

sunchaser said:

Geez JD, what do you think of Bayliners and their owners?

Click to expand...

They don't want to go there Sunchaser.

After the naysayers cross the Gulf of Alaska in their boat(s), we can all sit down, have a beer and discuss sea keeping ability on equal terms.

A bit of a rant, I know but I hate when groups/generations are lumped together. We all are different and have different goals and priorities among all walks of life.

Not all the internet "kids" of today are the same. Some of us prefer old, even if we have the funds for the flashy. Some of us save and responsibly purchase old boats that need a bit of love. I would much rather spend a day sitting at anchor or teaching my kids the finer things in life that few ever get to experience, such as paddle boarding next to a waterfall in 900' of water in the middle of the inside passage, than spend time trying out the next battery powered super car. I bought my first boat at 36 (I turn 39 in a few weeks), a 20 year old 58' footer. A great boat, and everyone said I
was crazy, never owning a boat before. They said it was too big, I could not handle it. Well, I got a captain to sign off on my insurance after the first day of running it. He said it usually takes a few weeks. I put more hours on it, its first year than just about anyone in my marina, that was weekends and 3 weeks of vacation. I did not shy away from anything, and worked hard to learn everything. By the 18month, I singled handed the boat several times. No, it did not have stern thrusters. Then we sold the company I helped grow (IT company). I profited, and sold that great West bay son ship for a boat that was 2 years older, and did not have carpet, walls, or much as it was a refit turned in, as the owner went on to purchase of a brand new boat (almost $4m if I remember correctly, and by a person >60.) I removed the old electronics, gutted the built in furniture and redid it much my own, I did hire out the carpet installer and some of the electrical, but designed my electronics, install cork, redid engine room, converted lights to Led. I spent 1 year, most evenings, weekends working on it with one goal in mind. I bought this boat as it was heavier, stronger, more economical, and well, looked a bit more like a classic yacht. I bought it to learn everything I could, because I was going to touch almost everything on it.

The point? Don't judge a book, person, or generation by its cover. We all march to our own drums.

By the way, I reached that goal this summer by captaining my vessel and family (4kids) up to Alaska, and while I would not mind experiencing the rush of the new tesla, my investments are for either my future retirement or for providing my family with experiences they will tell their kids about.

As to the $1m + boat or "ugly" bubble boats. I leave you with something my boat broker said to me. "There is a boat for every person and a person for every boat. "







Sent from my iPhone using Trawler Forum

"How much of that type of margin, if any, is in the price of a new Nordhavn, Krogen or other builder that sells direct? That seems like a pretty steep dealer markup for higher priced boats. Is there that much negotiating room on new boats? Where does one find these types of numbers and data? You can PM me if desired."

DIY is easy as many overseas yards will work with an owner.

The builder markup is usually about 20% and the dealer markup is 20% to 25% .

Much of this can be avoided by going to the builders yard and cutting a deal.

Sure YOU will need to hire someone there to watch your interests , or sit 6 months when construction starts.
However you may get to select all the gear that you prefer to the normal cookie stock boat selection.

You could have a Detroit instead of the higher list price (not cost ) Volvo.

Time or money , a newbuild offshore boat is your choice.

ksanders said:

They don't want to go there Sunchaser.

After the naysayers cross the Gulf of Alaska in their boat(s), we can all sit down, have a beer and discuss sea keeping ability on equal terms.

Click to expand...

For some of the naysayers, going north of Desolation Sound will be an eye opener as to the types of craft on the water. The notion that a 10 to 14 knot comfortable speed boat is not fit for sea is very successful marketing by small producers of very good but expensive trawlers.

Down East designs, Brunswick builds, Flemings, GBs, OAs etc fill the marinas and the order books. A big reason is the reality of time. Unless one is retired, a trawler doing 6 to 8 knots is not very popular. If you're thinking of buying a new KK 48, a step on board a new Sea Ray or Sabre with IPS or Zeus drives for the same price is an eye opener, especially if you are time limited wanting to cover 100 plus nm in an 8 hour day.

A trip to the new boat docks at Vancouver's Coal Harbour says the same. No new Kks but a dozen or more SeaRays just vibrating for their chance to get the family to Desolation in one day. Sadly, no new big Bayliners or Meridians for sale there either.

sunchaser said:

Down East designs, Brunswick builds, Flemings, GBs, OAs etc fill the marinas and the order books....... A big reason is the reality of time.If you're thinking of buying a new KK 48, a step on board a new Sea Ray or Sabre with IPS or Zeus drives for the same price is an eye opener, especially if you are time limited wanting to cover 100 plus nm in an 8 hour day.

Click to expand...

Couldn't agree more & this was the reason I opted for a faster boat. I'm sick & tired of lusting after Moonstruck's boat! I don't have one bad thing to say about experiencing trawler speeds for 8 years other than a constant reminder (20 years ago) of how much fun we had and the water we covered when the boat went 15-20 knots. (Not to mention the comfort of having more space, a second state room & a fly bridge with a decent ladder!) Sure, the fuel burn is dramatically more but to me it's worth it. Besides, the throttles also move back as well as up.

I don't know why it is considered in decent taste to blast another boat simply because it's not the one for you. Well, actually you're blasting the owner or buyer. The OP was simply surprised at the price and that's ok. But we all have different tastes in boats and different uses for our boats. There's not a trawler here that has ever come close to the sales of Sea Ray Sundancers. This is a forum of many trawler owners so it goes without question that it wouldn't be the boat of preference, but to state or imply that purchasers of them are stupid isn't appropriate. It's fine to say it's not the boat for you. But they are the right boat for many. They are a quality boat. They meet their design objectives very well.

I guess I'm an admirer of all types of boats, even those I'd have no desire whatsoever to personally own. I have friends who can't understand why anyone would want anything other than a sportfisherman. But they're knowledgeable and actually captain every other type boat.

I see Sea Ray's called "go-fast" basement boats. Well, they are neither "go-fast" or basement. Nortech or Fountain is "go-fast." And I can give a list of basement boats but won't as many owners of even them are happy and it's all they can afford.

Calling the owners all pot-bellied 30 something isn't fair. Owners come in all types. Most Sea Ray owners I see are families trying to enjoy some family time together. I admire that. I wouldn't like it if trawler owners were characterized as cranky old codgers who don't even move most days and 10 miles in a day exhausts them.

It's just stereotyping and while we may all do that at times, it's something we should also make an effort to try to avoid. It often just shows our own ignorance. I love it when someone breaks all the stereotypes. Like waiting for the valet to bring your car to you and watching the people ahead in line. Two couples ahead of you, a car is brought around, and you're shocked at which couple gets in it.

ksanders said:

They don't want to go there Sunchaser.

After the naysayers cross the Gulf of Alaska in their boat(s), we can all sit down, have a beer and discuss sea keeping ability on equal terms.

Click to expand...

Bayliners? Love you guys!!! . No insults intended. A newer found friend of mine on the water friend of mine has a 4788 and it's a very fine boat. I've also been on an "Offshore" another serious boat. But if I had to choose after winning the lottery, though, I think I'd pick a newer KK 48, preferably with a naturally aspirated John Deere and Twindisk.

Jim
Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum

Greetings,
Mr. BB. Well said! I am of the opinion that anyone on the water, if level headed and courteous, is a fellow boater REGARDLESS of the boat they are in. We're all in this recreational boating stuff to have fun, fun, fun but one's personal fun should NOT be at the expense of fellow boaters (that's where the levelheadedness and courtesy come in). There are, in fact, quite a few boats that I would never buy or I find unattractive but THAT is no reflection on the owner.
I met a fellow one time with, what I considered, a VERY ugly boat, fairly new but UGLY!!!...We got to chatting and I asked him how he liked his boat. He replied "Ugly, isn't it but it was such a good deal, I couldn't pass it up and the family is having a great time."
Unfortunately, there are too many people too quick to judge another person by their appearance, where they live or what they drive.

sunchaser said:

For some of the naysayers, going north of Desolation Sound will be an eye opener as to the types of craft on the water. The notion that a 10 to 14 knot comfortable speed boat is not fit for sea is very successful marketing by small producers of very good but expensive trawlers.

Down East designs, Brunswick builds, Flemings, GBs, OAs etc fill the marinas and the order books. A big reason is the reality of time. Unless one is retired, a trawler doing 6 to 8 knots is not very popular. If you're thinking of buying a new KK 48, a step on board a new Sea Ray or Sabre with IPS or Zeus drives for the same price is an eye opener, especially if you are time limited wanting to cover 100 plus nm in an 8 hour day.

A trip to the new boat docks at Vancouver's Coal Harbour says the same. No new Kks but a dozen or more SeaRays just vibrating for their chance to get the family to Desolation in one day. Sadly, no new big Bayliners or Meridians for sale there either.

Click to expand...

You've pointed out the problem with the trawler market.

TIME

Unless you got really lucky financially, people with the money to buy a big new expensive boat got and get that money by earning it. They are trading their hours for money, working hard and just want to get away with their family that generally does not get the attention they need because dad and sometimes mom are working so hard.

They need a boat that will get them out, and back quickly.

Thats why the faster boats sell.

In general the only people that want a slow boat are those that are retired.

Having reread my original post, I do apologize. It was in poor taste. It was intended in humour but clearly it insulted some on the forum. Please accept my apology!


Jim
Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum

JDCAVE said:

Bayliners? Love you guys!!! . No insults intended. A newer found friend of mine on the water friend of mine has a 4788 and it's a very fine boat. I've also been on an "Offshore" another serious boat. But if I had to choose after winning the lottery, though, I think I'd pick a newer KK 48, preferably with a naturally aspirated John Deere and Twindisk.

Jim
Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum

Click to expand...

Thats OK, The 4788 isn't a lottery boat. Its a capable boat with the features I need at a price I can afford. Thinking about it... same money I could have bought a older boat with longer range and heavy weather capabilities but this one fit our needs.

Donsan said:

Bankers spend their year end bonuses that way.

They don't have to worry about depreciation as they know they will get another outrageous bonus the next year.

Click to expand...

Sad, but true.
Being in NY, they really distort the market on many things, houses, boats and cars.

It's amazing the kind of penile substitutes one can go thru with a Christmas bonus of half a million.

While economics have definitely hurt the boating industry, in my opinion, time is what has really cut back on sales and impacted the type boats. People realize they can't justify it economically because they don't get enough use, enough benefit. On any lake, there are boats sitting in dry storage being used twice a year. I saw one resold that have been in the water once in the three years since purchased, had been winterized two years ago and never again used. An owner visited a boat last week managed by a friend of mine. He hadn't seen his boat in 4 years. Parents working 55 hours a week, kids with dozens of activities they're committed to. I grew up on the water every weekend and much more during the summer. When I got out on my own, that pattern continued. Found my wife....make that she found me....I don't know...but we loved it together. But the only way we got the time was that we lived on the lake. Now, somewhat retired, we have it.

The most valuable resource any of us have is time. It's the most finite as well. For the average family in today's US there is far less of it than any prior generation. In many countries a month of holiday at a time is common and two weeks easy to come by. In the US a family having two weeks vacation together is rare, extremely rare. One week isn't easy to come by. Schedules conflict. And other priorities, however illogical or misplaced, take precedence.

In starting our own smaller business after retirement, we had some beliefs that time has proven. Working environment and family time are most important to potential employees. If we can give them time off when they want and need it, they're so much better and happier employees. We forbid even our executives from working in excess of 45 hours any week. Our normal is 37.5 hours. Vacations are not optional, but are required. If you leave the year with unused vacation somehow you will use it in January or February. If your family needs you, you'll be there for them. They are your number one priority, not our business. We've attempted to take an approach more European.

People are taught subjects and means to make money, but there's way too little emphasis on happiness in life. It should be the quest of everyone.

Most people could afford a boat of some sort, even if just an old beaten and battered canoe to take the kids fishing on a small pond on weekends. But they either can't or don't make the time to do it.

Ok, now a bit of a rant somewhat off target but when we're talking boating, we are talking quality of life. I'm tired of hearing businessmen, owners, CEO's and others whine. I'm tired of "we can't." I spent my career working for a company that I was loyal to because they were loyal to me. You can treat employees right and you can be profitable and if you can't figure out how to do that then you shouldn't be in charge. The example we've copied in many ways is a convenience store chain, Quiktrip. We're in retail and we have no minimum wage employees as we have our own minimum. But look at QT's benefit page here.

QuikTrip Corporation > Jobs > Benefits

Now if a convenience store can do it, then why can't everyone else? We had some QT's in the Charlotte area, none in South Florida. We saw it working. Cleanest, friendliest, best service, far superior to their competitors. Wonder why? Maybe caring employees because their employer cared? And you treat employees the best, you'll be able to hire the best employees.

Right now boating is largely split into two groups. Group one is those who can do a bit of weekend boating, starting Saturday morning and ending Sunday night. Generally smaller, faster boats. Many younger singles and some families but fewer and fewer. Group two is retired or semi-retired, in no hurry, time to enjoy the water. And why is it hard to sell the mid range new boat? The younger buyers don't have the time and the retired don't have the disposable income or the need.

Why are we so passionate on this topic? Because I don't think any other activity or sport rivals boating as a quality family experience. But too little of it happening. Even those activities that are somewhat the same, aren't. Decades ago the family gathered around the radio. Then it gathered around the television. Now at night families watch television. The kids watch by themselves in their rooms on their tv's and often the two parents are even watching in separate rooms so they can see different shows. Sad. There's not a television show in the world I'd rather watch than the one I can watch with my wife. And the teen who spends most of here time at our house although technically not our daughter, we'll watch anything she wants if it means sitting and talking to her and getting more insight into what she likes. Quite educational too.

FF said:

The builder markup is usually about 20% and the dealer markup is 20% to 25% .

Much of this can be avoided by going to the builders yard and cutting a deal.

.

Click to expand...

That's about right from my experience in the industry. Dealing direct is devastating to the dealer network...When I worked for Fountain, we (I) worked hard to build a good network. We had stocking requirements that required major Finance investments by the dealers. Unfortunately, my Boss/Owner (the famous Reggie Fountain) thought it was perfectly acceptable to slide boats out the back door to his many buddies. Guess what happened to the dealer network, and the Company as a whole? Yep, Gone.
I'm guessing this is more the model now as dealers have a hard time committing to stock given the competitive retail envoirnment.

Short story, Back in the early 70's I worked for one of the largest Trojan and Pacemaker dealers in the country. It was not unusual to sell one of the beautiful Trojan 42' double cabin Motoryachts for $70K and a $3K dealer profit...

JDCAVE said:

Having reread my original post, I do apologize. It was in poor taste. It was intended in humour but clearly it insulted some on the forum. Please accept my apology!


Jim
Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum

Click to expand...

Jim It did not offend me, but I've never owned a Searay.

RT Firefly said:

Greetings,
Mr. BB. Well said! I am of the opinion that anyone on the water, if level headed and courteous, is a fellow boater REGARDLESS of the boat they are in. We're all in this recreational boating stuff to have fun, fun, fun but one's personal fun should NOT be at the expense of fellow boaters (that's where the levelheadedness and courtesy come in). There are, in fact, quite a few boats that I would never buy or I find unattractive but THAT is no reflection on the owner.
I met a fellow one time with, what I considered, a VERY ugly boat, fairly new but UGLY!!!...We got to chatting and I asked him how he liked his boat. He replied "Ugly, isn't it but it was such a good deal, I couldn't pass it up and the family is having a great time."
Unfortunately, there are too many people too quick to judge another person by their appearance, where they live or what they drive.

Click to expand...

RTF, "level headedness & courtesy" That's like Rodney King saying "can't everybody just get along". Wow, what a wonderful world if either worked.

About ugly boats (or cars etc), in 1983, after a financial setback and needing a new family car, I bought a Toyota Tercel 4 wheel drive station wagon. IMHO and more vociferously, my wife stated it was the ugliest car she ever saw and was almost ashamed to be seen in it. I responded that you couldn't see how ugly it was from inside. That car went on for 3 generations of my family, has around 300k miles on it. Is now a farm vehicle and still running having never been rebuilt. But it sure is ugly

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and we all know ugly people with beautiful interiors, just like boats, cars (not usually airplanes as ugly ones don't usually fly well).

ksanders said:

In general the only people that want a slow boat are those that are retired.

Click to expand...

I appreciate your understanding and also the use of the term "in general".

Although my boat cruises VERY comfortably at 9-10 knots (she doesn't really like slower), the fact that she can easily go sustained 21 knots (WOT 28 knots), I go fast most times because I am running out of time and my bucket list is far from complete. The loop still awaits us as well as time in Caribbean etc.

It's not just the young/middle aged families that are going fast to destinations, us older types are in a hurry too and not all of us live aboard.

B (and Wifey B!)-I admire your approach to running a good and effective business. As you mention, an art lost to many in management nowadays. In too many companies, when the word "competition" comes up, it gets framed in purely $$ terms. The idea that effective competition also involves customer service, employee loyalty, length of service of employees has been entirely lost in the financial culture. For instance, I go in a Nordstrom and am approached by at least one employee asking if I need help in each department I go to, generally one who has been there a while, yet I go into Macy's, Sears and others and search vainly for an employee to help or answer questions. Yes, Nordstrom is a bit more expensive, but which one do I feel better about when I leave the store?

One of the most famous management studies ever, from the '30s, used tp be taught in Mgmt 101. A Harvard study about the lighting in a factory. First, the lighting was increased, then decreased, then left the same. At each change, employees were surveyed, and each change was approved of by the employees. Management was confused, how could employees approve of every change, no matter what it was? A little bit of further research showed that employees did not really care about the lighting, what they cared about was that management cared enough to make some changes in their working conditions and involved them in the process. A lesson long forgotten in modern "efficiency" management.

One more rant-on the minimum wage thing-as Seattle folks here know, Seattle has joined the "Living Wage" movement and is attempting to raise the minimum wage in Seattle to $15/hour. The biggest opponents are the fast food restaurant who rely on young, Hispanic or other minority workers. They claim it is a "competitive" issue. I have heard at least one congressman claim, with a straight face, that the Federal minimum wage of $7.25/hour is a "living wage". Well, let him try to live on it. It is not a "competitive" issue.Iif all businesses have to live by it, it, by definition, is not a competitive issue.

Sorry for the hijack-rant over.

THD,

On the one hand, I agree. This kind of manual labor, or dish washing, laying concrete or whatever should be paid much better for the labor that it is.

On the other hand, once again the middle is getting squeezed - you just overpriced my Big Mac and now I cannot afford it. Those making a $1k+ / day don't eat at McDonald's.

Delta_JimS said:

THD,

On the one hand, I agree. This kind of manual labor, or dish washing, laying concrete or whatever should be paid much better for the labor that it is.

On the other hand, once again the middle is getting squeezed - you just overpriced my Big Mac and now I cannot afford it. Those making a $1k+ / day don't eat at McDonald's.

Click to expand...

Actually history says otherwise. It says the middle is helped as their pay is in a relationship with the lowest paid and minimum wage. Wages at all levels except the top level tend to rise.

Still doesn't give people time though.

Huh? "Wages at all levels except the top level tend to rise."

BB, where have you been the last 7 years? The top level have been making out like robber barons, while 60M are either under or unemployed or have given up.
Raising the minimum wage is going to put more to work?

Since this conversation has morphed into a philosophy of how we spend our time and money, I remember reading an article in the Wall Street Journal back in the '80s about Americans, money and time.

At the time, the issue was while Americans had a two week vacation, western Europeans had 6 weeks. While there was some talk of longer vacations, when given the choice between more time off or more money, people of every income level, chose more money.

Thus, while the European had one small, gas efficient car, Americans had two or more.

I was interested in this conversation because I preferred the European life style, more time off, simpler toys, smaller homes.

And 30 years later, nothing has really changed.

To each his own.