Boat Search 101

Capthead said:

Stealing is a figure of speech.
When a book price is 70-120K and it sells for 35K and had 20K of work on it recently, that might qualify. But as I always said in the car business, any deal both parties are happy with, is a great deal.

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Those making the boat "books" are in the book selling business, and pull prices out of their asses to sell books to foolish lenders.. IF there were auctions for boats like there is for cars, then they would have current prices to go on, but the care and feeding of boats are such a wildcard, it's impossible to even come up with a baseline for common values, and that's before even taking the condition into consideration.

>>>>>but the care and feeding of boats is such a wildcard, it's impossible to even come up with a baseline for common values, and that's before even taking the condition into consideration.,<<<<<
I was timed out to originally make the grammatical correction. Being a born and bred southerner, it takes a while to translate to normal speak. :>)

Back to Boat Buying 101. One of the best thinks that comes with boating is interacting with the people who actually own boats! Both as a totally inexperienced person thinking about getting into a first boat or someone with thoughts of going full time cruising after years of weekend adventures this is your most valuable source of information! Most folks that are aboard at the local marina will be glad to offer a little gab and often a full open house of their pride and joy. And if you want to see the flip side of the joys of boat ownership spend a couple of weekends at a "Do it yourself" boat yard. Being polite and having enough knowledge to ask intelligent questions will open up the data base of those actually living the dream/nightmare of yacht ownership. The Captain will be overjoyed to explain about how economical his diesels are after recently spending more on fuel and dockage in Key West than it would have cost to stay at the Presidential Suite at the Casa Marina including a hooker for the week. And the Admiral will keep the little woman enchanted with tales of how the all electric galley might look "just like your kitchen at home" but is in fact a cruel joke because something called the "Westerbeke" has refused to operate except when tied to the dock with an expensive service man on board. These are the folks that will ultimately let you "Steal" their boat. JUST KIDDING! These boat people will tell you the good, bad and ugly and also admit that buying the boat was the best thing that they ever did.

Hey gang, if ya wanna banter specific boats, people and situations please start a discussion thread. This is a sticky thread for dispensing boat buying advice in a general way.

I gotta chime in. Good thread. However,,,,I tried to get to know people at the marinas and was met with stares and glares, like Who is this guy casing our marina. I never met a person that was willing to even talk. They were too busy washing and waxing and doing chores. I knew I was holding them up and hated that fact. I offered to help them. Nope nothing doing. I got on some websites and people talked a bunch of nonsense and I have found that most people just couch cruise and really dont cruise. I wanted a blue water sail boat and nobody was telling me any different. That is until I lived on one for 5 months. I hated it. I hit my head on everything on that 40ft transworld of a formosa. I ended up with a 43' Hatteras with a sundeck. 100% 180 degree out. Of course the Admiral was behind some of that. Now I know tons of people who live in the marina and own boats. I must say the trawler forum and the Hatteras owners forum are very good resources. Most people are pretty bias in some sort of ways. Just ask them about what anchor is the best, or which batteries for their house bank. Point is I think you can over research things and read too much. I read for 4 yrs before we made that leap. I still went in blind. The things I thought I knew I really didnt know and some things I just changed my mind all together when I actually started cruising. Its unfortunate but its a trail by fire thing buying a boat. There are no perfect boats. Most of them float and people usually have a good time and make memories with them what ever they buy. Just go do it. Buy one and start cruising.

eyschulman said:

Some times the hard part is sorting out the difference between what you need and what you want. Also it is often difficult to be honest with yourself about how you are actually going to use the boat vs an embellished imagination. The ideal is to find a boat well matched to its use pattern as a boat and as a living accommodation that coincidently fits your budget for buying and maintaining..

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BAM!!!! This is a very important point and I think some of the best advice on this thread....although all of it is damn good!

I call it the difference between perception and reality. The closer those two principles are, the more successful your boat purchase will be. THE absolute number one reason why there are marinas full of unused boats all across the country is this!!! They thought the boat was "this"....but in reality, it was "that"....and they didn't really like "that".....so the boat sits unused.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eyschulman
Some times the hard part is sorting out the difference between what you need and what you want. Also it is often difficult to be honest with yourself about how you are actually going to use the boat vs an embellished imagination. The ideal is to find a boat well matched to its use pattern as a boat and as a living accommodation that coincidently fits your budget for buying and maintaining..

Baker said:

BAM!!!! This is a very important point and I think some of the best advice on this thread....although all of it is damn good!

I call it the difference between perception and reality. The closer those two principles are, the more successful your boat purchase will be. THE absolute number one reason why there are marinas full of unused boats all across the country is this!!! They thought the boat was "this"....but in reality, it was "that"....and they didn't really like "that".....so the boat sits unused.

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You guys hit nails squarely on the head!

From speaking with some who rarely ever visit their boats... I believe the most pervasive Fantasy Perception - vs - Reality Difference that people run into once actually owning a boat is simply "TIME" and "EFFORT"

Fantasy Perception of "TIME" and "EFFORT": Purchasers feel they will buy into the majestic dream of owning/using a boat and have plenty of time to go out and enjoy it. They also have some foggy notion that the boat will always be in OK condition with little need for their (or expensive others) effort to keep it that way.

Reality Difference of "TIME" and "EFFORT": Once boat is owned the buyer is so happy and immediately uses the boat on one to a few or even several occasions. Then the reality of how much time it takes away from other life events sets in. Soon all the maintenance and care, not to mention flat-out difficult repair effort becomes clearly evident, i.e. “…that previous foggy notion that the boat will always be in OK condition with little need for their (or expensive others) effort to keep it that way” - evaporates.

Point in fact:

Besides the well over 75% of all boats at out marina NEVER being used… this one is a classic example of Fantasy Perception - vs - Reality Difference!

Early 2000’s a couple purchased a brand-new boat. 27’ with twin I/O’s and some overnight accommodations. They used it four +/- times for day jaunts in SF Delta. Then docked it and they virtually disappeared. Heard they visit to look at boat at dock maybe a couple times a year and pay a service to clean it once a year.

So here comes the real clincher on this case’s Fantasy Perception - vs - Reality Difference! A few days before a big holiday weekend in 2014 this couple called the marina and said they wanted marina mechanics to ready their boat for the big weekend. I spoke with marina attendant. He said – First we have little time and our schedule is booked. Secondly we did go look at the boat and besides dead batteries, it’s corroded carburetors need replacing as well as gas tanks drained, cleaned, refilled. Can just imagine other problems that would show-up. Told the owners sorry but no way we can do this on such short notice; your boat needs several days work and expensive parts to get it going.

Well, obviously the owners over a decade-long Fantasy of their boat’s usability therein again evaporated into the Reality of OMG our boat that we paid $100K for and $6K to $8K annually for 13 years to keep is useless!

So… far as I know they still own the boat, but, it just sits.

One other point – Last registration sticker on it is 2009. Many many non-used boats all over are way past registration date. Just imagine the use fees and registration costs built up on some of these “floating planters”

“Use It – or – Lose It”!, is a good saying for pleasure boats! Maybe a bit better in this premise of pleasure boating: “Use It – or – Wish Ta Fck You Could Lose IT!!

Happy Boat-Use Daze! - Art

Art

A good example we just ran into. Someone bought a 100' boat and intends to operate it with just he and his wife, no paid crew. That's not going to be boating, that's going to be crewing. Just routine maintenance and simple things like washing it down after use. One person commented that if they're going to do that, why buy a boat. Why not just get a job on one as crew.

We know our own personal limitation and what we can enjoy. We're both 200 Ton Masters but there is no way we could enjoy a 100' boat with no crew. We didn't get into boating to be mechanics and deck hands.

It's just like weather which none of us can predict. If you depend on it being good and you being able to stick to your schedule, then you're going to be very disappointed. I remember us getting stuck for a week on the gulf coast, in the Destin, Panama City and Pensacola area. We stayed inside the waterway for the week, explored those areas and had a tremendously enjoyable time. But if we'd just brooded over not being able to keep to our schedule we would have been miserable. It's corny, but boaters must be capable of turning lemons into lemonade.

BandB said:

Art

A good example we just ran into. Someone bought a 100' boat and intends to operate it with just he and his wife, no paid crew. That's not going to be boating, that's going to be crewing. Just routine maintenance and simple things like washing it down after use. One person commented that if they're going to do that, why buy a boat. Why not just get a job on one as crew.

We know our own personal limitation and what we can enjoy. We're both 200 Ton Masters but there is no way we could enjoy a 100' boat with no crew. We didn't get into boating to be mechanics and deck hands.

It's just like weather which none of us can predict. If you depend on it being good and you being able to stick to your schedule, then you're going to be very disappointed. I remember us getting stuck for a week on the gulf coast, in the Destin, Panama City and Pensacola area. We stayed inside the waterway for the week, explored those areas and had a tremendously enjoyable time. But if we'd just brooded over not being able to keep to our schedule we would have been miserable. It's corny, but boaters must be capable of turning lemons into lemonade.

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Uuuuhhhhh.....Mr. and Mrs. B, I wise person once told me, "Cruising is doing maintenance on your boat in exotic locales. Yachting is having other people do maintenance on your boat in exotic locales!". I think y'all might be yachting!!!!....

BandB said:

Art

A good example we just ran into. Someone bought a 100' boat and intends to operate it with just he and his wife, no paid crew. That's not going to be boating, that's going to be crewing. Just routine maintenance and simple things like washing it down after use. One person commented that if they're going to do that, why buy a boat. Why not just get a job on one as crew.

We know our own personal limitation and what we can enjoy. We're both 200 Ton Masters but there is no way we could enjoy a 100' boat with no crew. We didn't get into boating to be mechanics and deck hands.

It's just like weather which none of us can predict. If you depend on it being good and you being able to stick to your schedule, then you're going to be very disappointed. I remember us getting stuck for a week on the gulf coast, in the Destin, Panama City and Pensacola area. We stayed inside the waterway for the week, explored those areas and had a tremendously enjoyable time. But if we'd just brooded over not being able to keep to our schedule we would have been miserable. It's corny, but boaters must be capable of turning lemons into lemonade.

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Upon reading your [now bolded by me] statement... I immediately call our dear Ms. Tolly - ya know, our beloved and utilized boat. Luckily she was awake at dock and taking calls today. When I told her what you said... dead silence fell over the phone... so, after brief interim, I nervously asked "Ms. Tolly" are you OK?? Luckily there was no problem and she immediately said: Well, you boaters think you have it tough turning lemons into lemonade... just think what we boats need to do while turning rough seas into pleasurable rides for you folks! Then she added; I wish you'd call management at our marina, some jerk finger-dock fisher left a fish on the main dock and it's beginning to stink!

It's always great when owners' relationships with their boat get so close that confab is just a phone call away. A few days ago, Linda spoke with our Ms. Tolly; I noticed her face blush pink... I can just imagine what those gals say to each other!

Some fantasies about boats can become good too!

Happy Boat-Fantasy Daze! - Art :lol:

Two questions if I may... 1) who/where did u charter the 42 kady krogen from? 2) What other forums did u find useful? Thx

One thing I don't see in any of the discussions here is MONEY. Now I may be an outlier on this forum, but money is a factor in any boat I buy. By money I am talking about both purchase price and operating/maintenance costs. I think the first decision you have to make in buying a boat is how much do you want to spend and how much can you afford to spend going forward on owning the boat.

I would suggest considering your finances as the first step. How much you can afford to spend will place significant limits on the boats that are available to you. Once you make the money decision, you need to decide on where you will be using the boat. That can impact the geographical range of your search. Buying a boat 1,500 miles away from where you intend us it generates significant additional costs (travel during the buying process, moving the boat after purchase). Those costs come off the top of your purchase price figure. For example, my next boat purchase will be for a boat to use in Puget Sound. So I will restrict my search to Puget Sound.

Once you have decided on the money and geographical limitations on your search, I think the next step is to spend quite a bit of time looking at what is available in your price and location range. With that information you can start applying criteria like those discussed in this thread.

TDunn said:

One thing I don't see in any of the discussions here is MONEY. Now I may be an outlier on this forum, but money is a factor in any boat I buy. By money I am talking about both purchase price and operating/maintenance costs. I think the first decision you have to make in buying a boat is how much do you want to spend and how much can you afford to spend going forward on owning the boat.

I would suggest considering your finances as the first step. How much you can afford to spend will place significant limits on the boats that are available to you. Once you make the money decision, you need to decide on where you will be using the boat. That can impact the geographical range of your search. Buying a boat 1,500 miles away from where you intend us it generates significant additional costs (travel during the buying process, moving the boat after purchase). Those costs come off the top of your purchase price figure. For example, my next boat purchase will be for a boat to use in Puget Sound. So I will restrict my search to Puget Sound.

Once you have decided on the money and geographical limitations on your search, I think the next step is to spend quite a bit of time looking at what is available in your price and location range. With that information you can start applying criteria like those discussed in this thread.

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Very true. No different than buying a car or a house. When looking for a house, you don't go into MLS and look at every available house. You focus on a price range. A good approach just to familiarize oneself is to go into yachtworld and enter a size and a price range and just look through it and get an idea of the type boats available. In just gathering information I wouldn't limit locations. But then when thinking of buying you may want to. Also after educating yourself that way every time you go to the water you can look around and think about the boats you see. You might say to yourself, "Now that's a type boat that might interest me" or "I love that boat but I'd have to get a much older model to fit my price range."

Greetings,
Mr. BB is correct in post #73 but might I suggest if using YW that you set your upper limit 25% higher than what you are budgeting. You may miss out on finding "your" boat which is listed higher than but will eventually be sold in your price range.

RT Firefly said:

Greetings,
Mr. BB is correct in post #73 but might I suggest if using YW that you set your upper limit 25% higher than what you are budgeting. You may miss out on finding "your" boat which is listed higher than but will eventually be sold in your price range.

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Good suggestion as prices on YF are asking and in some case fantasizing and often are quite negotiable.

I thought the price point was assumed.

One thing you must consider is your marina and slip fees. I know that was mentioned but the reason I'm saying it here is because where I am the slip fees run from 10.00 a foot to 35.00 a foot. The upper priced marinas have a spa, tennis court and other amenities you might or might not want.

On a 40' boat that is a 1000.00 difference, if you get away for only paying for 40'. Marinas charge for everything that sticks out in front or back and a 40' boat will usually eat up a 45' slip, which is rare, so they'll stick you in a 50' and charge you for all 50'.

Doing your homework will save you in the long run.

Just about whatever you figure for "annual" boat expenses (after purchase that is) I'd advise adding 10 to 15% on top... and that may not cover ALL your needs.

With cost in mind, a lot of people want the biggest bang for their buck. Bigger is by far and away not better. You don't want to buy a master that makes you it's slave. Buy the smallest that you know would make you comfortable and meet your needs. If you are contemplating a second berth, get a boat that has one. After finding this perfect boat if you have money burning a hole in your pocket, then buy the same boat only younger.

I don't want a boat that I can't handle by myself (if it comes to that) or fix using the skills I have. The bigger the boat, the more complex the systems and the more fuel it will burn. Face it, fuel prices will eventually get to the point that running a 10' Whaler with an outboard will be too costly.

Having to pay someone to drive or manage my boat is just something I find to be ridiculous.

I've seen a number of boats where a trip on them involves going 100 yards off the dock and dropping anchor because they are too expensive to operate more than that.

I just read this post. Having cruised for four plus years full time, your ininerary sound more exhausting than pleasurable. We spend six months in the Chesapeake alone (over two trips) and still feel that we can spend another year there before we see most of it. Like you said, your idea of a fun trip won't be for everyone.

Great Ideas!

Just a quick "thank you" to everyone who posted here. I'm starting what will likely be a couple of years search for the right boat to do the Great Loop in, and am very grateful for everyone's thoughts on what factors to consider.

I will be doing portions of the Loop solo, so finding the right boat which has the mix of good living space and the ability to be handled by one person is a good challenge. Any ideas or thoughts are most welcome!

Depending on your physical condition and boat handling skills, any boat from 0 to around 50' could be single handed. Look for one with a lower helm with side doors on both sides. And perhaps a bow thruster.

Once you learn how to use spring lines and properly place a fender or two you'd be surprised at how large a boat you can safely single hand.

I should add when it's your own. I always err on the side of caution when Im paid to run someone else's boat. And try to run with more than enough crew if I can.

This link may be of interest to you: Choosing your Great Loop boat.

Good points... Doors on both sides would be helpful!

We are smack dab in the middle of looking for "THE boat". The boat that will be our home for (hopefuly) 2 - 3 years, maybe more. (How long does it take to do "the Great Southern Loop", anyway?) In addition to our spreadsheet of the "facts and figures" (number of this, size of that), we've also come up with a list of scenarios, and we're giving each boat a score of 1 - 5 on each. For example:

Long distance in nice weather - just us two.
Long distance in bad weather - with another couple.
Meal prep - just us two.
A week on the hook - with another couple.

Each scenario has a "weight", based on how important it is (which is mostly based on how often it will happen). We take the score of each scenario and multiply it times its weight, then add up all the results, to get an overall score for the boat.

So far, this has helped us realize that some boats that we THOUGHT we loved aren't really going to be in the running. (For example, we want to swim, snorkel and scuba dive a LOT - so anything without a low aft deck, or a real cockpit, is pretty much out of the running.)

BTW, we did what someone suggested - being brand new to big boats, we went in w/ another couple and bought a "practice boat" for well under $50K. We're learning so much by having it, working on it, paying for its maintenance, taking it on short and not-so-short trips. And when we're ready, we'll sell our half to the other couple (who is still a few years away from their "THE boat"). I can't imagine trying to buy "THE boat" without having done this first.

I have been getting back into boating over the past three years as I approach retirement and plan to boat near full time. I decided I wanted to get kind of a "starter boat" to learn more about what is involved in ownership. I checked into slip fees, insurance, estimated maintenance costs, hauling, bottom cleaning and painting, etc. Looked at some boats, talked with brokers, went to boat shows and thought I was ready. Based on walking through boats we really liked the room a tri-level aft-cabin provided with a down kitchen. I think it was a 37 Tollycraft aft-cabin in immaculate condition that I had to have. The only concern was gas engines. I went on a boating forum, not sure if it was TF, and was asking about gas engines and that I was new to boating and was not certain about my choices. It was there that I was provided with the best advice ever and am so thankful to this day for it. The person responding said, "do not buy! Find a charter company that provides training, take their courses and then charter. Charter different types and styles of boats to verify what you like and then buy what you know works for you based on real life experience." OMG, what I almost bought was exactly the wrong boat for my wife and me. We went from wanting an aft-cabin to knowing we want a pilothouse with an up kitchen and nice size cockpit. Over the past couple of years I have chartered seven different boats and will continue to do so for a while to further confirm our exact fit. In addition to experiencing the type of boat, chartering has also exposed me to different boat systems; nav, electrical setups, water/waste, cabin set-ups, etc. I would highly recommend anyone new to boating to do what I did. I am also so thankful for the training I received. I ended up taking several classes and it taught me that I really did not know as much as I thought I did about boat handling, navigation, rules and regs, radio communication, etc. Charter first, then buy!

The person responding said, "do not buy!

If he said "do not buy!" because of the mfg , the build quality or the layout he might have been correct.

But the Gas Vs Diesel is far more complex than a knee jerk reaction that a diesel is somehow "better".

For most rec boats , 200 hours a year with a 1000 hour loop tossed in the gas will be cheaper to maintain and operate , and far quieter to live with.

After the boat gets BIG , requiring over 200 hp at Long range cruise , diesel will be easier to live with , unless you want the speed from two engines.


Of course Gas Vs Diesel is a religion . single vs twin , multi hull vs monohull , big anchor vs watch fob 24/7 noisemaker vs Quiet boat , all are open to much irrational opinions , and are great fun for mental masturbation.

To select a boat YOU need to first visit enough boats so you can make a list of what you like. Not what is rational , what you LIKE!

Then it becomes easier to view boats that might fit your Desirements.

Read Dave Pascoe first.

The hardest to achieve in boating is a Zero round trip.

Sure fuel ,dockage PM and maint will always be the cost of boating

BUT with good selection , some sweat equity (paint sells the boat) and rational toy purchases , the boat can be sold for its basic cost , even years later.

Good hunting ,

But remember a 30ft Bayliner for $10K with $15,000 worth of electric toys is STILL a $10K Bayliner.

Once you clearly define 95 + % of your needs, wants, desires (accompanying life-partner's too if that is the case) for "your" boat, then the search will get much easier.


It has often been said that the "correct" boat choses you once you have met. There is some truth and much wisdom to that saying. However, caveat emptor... as with mates... check out the boat's credentials via thorough survey before purchase. Cause - ya just don't want to spend years of life owning/being-with a bummer, money and time sucking craft!

Happy Boating-Finding Daze! - Art

I believe most boats will need to be modified to Loop with ease.

In the huge commercial locks nothing more than a hefty cleat , midships that is easy to pop outside and work will be required . 15 inch would be a reasonable size.

Ride the pipe float , easy with one line.

The hassle would be the small locks in the Hudson and the Erie barge canal or in Canada..

Nothing but ropes hang from the top of the lock, no sliding Pig to tie up to.

Usually 2 folks (one fore and one aft) will pull or release lines to keep the boat on the lock wall.

I would contemplate a powered windlass , or powered old sail boat winch , so with good fendering a single line could be held taught enough to keep the hull on the wall.

The windlass would be on the "natural" docking side as required by the boats prop direction.

Might be useful after the loop in docking
.