All chain rode versus rope

FlyWright said:

But you're very wrong to think you're the only one who can be right and must always have the last word while the others here are wrong. Give the judgmental BS a break already!!

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You're right Al, and I appologize. It's easy to get carried away with this stuff, particularly when it's just words on a screen with no person in front of you to key off of.

Which is another problem with the internet but we'll leave that one alone.

Marin said:

You're right Al, and I appologize. It's easy to get carried away with this stuff, particularly when it's just words on a screen with no person in front of you to key off of.

Which is another problem with the internet but we'll leave that one alone.

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Well done, I personally think there has been way too many words on this subject from a few people. This thread got to the point where I was only reading it for a laugh and I don't think that was anyones intention.

Anyway, time to get boating people and get some more real experience.

Marin said:

You're right Al, and I appologize. It's easy to get carried away with this stuff, particularly when it's just words on a screen with no person in front of you to key off of.

Which is another problem with the internet but we'll leave that one alone.

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Thank you

Yeah and what about anchors anyway! ?


Kevin
Portland, OR

Marin said:

Art--- I suspect from reading your posts over the years that your introduction to boating came long before Al Gore invented the internet. You learned by asking questions of people you personally knew and trusted, and hunted up people to talk to when you didn't already know someone with the needed knowledge or experience.

And from your posts, I get the impression that you did just fine and have had great boating experiences with no necessity to resort to a computer keyboard to find something out.

You talked to someone when you had a question, maybe more than one person, and having met them you were able to judge their character, integrity, and credibility and then make your own decision on what to do based on what you learned and what you felt was the best course of action.

I doubt that you needed to get the consensus of half the country to decide when you should run your generator if you had one. I doubt you needed the Linus-blanket, thumb-sucking reassurance of a faceless internet crowd when you decided what anchors to use on your boats, or what oil to use in your engines.

I suspect you are one of those people to whom an internet forum is a fun past-time but is certainly not necessary for you and your family to get the maximum best experience from boating. I suspect that if ISIS took out the US's entire internet system tomorrow (or if Al Gore decided to turn it off in pure petulance), it would not make a dent in your ability to operate your boat and make decisions about your boating.

Am I right?

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Marin

First of all "Party Pooper" was meant in jest. Please don't take everything I say as seriousness. I enjoy poking people in the ribs sometimes... just to get a grin/chuckle. You included!

Correct-o-Rama, about me in general: However, I had the privilege to slowly/thoroughly learn intricacies of boating and marine life, virtually from birth. Therefore during decades before internet (even before public computer access) I learned via year after year of hands-on marine/boat experiences accompanied by good teaching from boating/marine pros. As well as constantly reading in boating magazines and books.

Now, Fast Forward to Q1 21st Century: Insta-access to nearly unlimited info and communications and item searches on the net. Then think of the people who did not have my privileged boat experience during upbringing, but that want to begin boating in their 20’s, 30’s, 40’s, 50’s… I feel it is OK for those newbie-boater people to review TF and other forums to enhance and improve their boat-learning experiences; hoping that boat/marine-experienced contributors in the forums tell things as best and truthfully as they [we] can. Of course there will be challenges, disagreements, and also comradery pertaining to topics discussed. That provides flavor and gives depth into forum chats. The same chats that newbie, want-to-be, boaters can read for vicarious experiences and can use as their beginner’s break-in to boating.

That said… I greatly respect the offered input from many of the boater/contributors on TF; you very much included. Personally, as I feel most others here do also, I try to not state items of which I have experience incorrectly or misleadingly. Also, I have learned more than a few things vis others’ posts… yours included!

All n’ All I’m in favor of most boating/marine forums. In addition to being cool-fun for we boat addicts to converse and offer insights to our expertise… they also assist newbies to come aboard.

Newbies need us and we need them; otherwise pleasure boating may even further diminish than as has happened over the last couple decades.

Happy Boat-Topic Daze! - Art

Larry M said:

Part of the optimum scope, is also knowing (seeing) what's in your swinging room. We like anchoring at low tide. It gives you a better sense of what's under you. More than once, after coming in at high tide and then looking around at low tide...yikes! Then you see that rock pinnacle or shallow area that was missed or wasn't on the charts.

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Excellent tactic. I need to make sure enough rode is let out to accommodate for the rise of the ride.

There are a number of users looking at this thread right now I have never seen before.

Welcome and remember, there is no such thing as a stupid question, only stupid answers

OK.
I admit that I just wanted to say something smart assed.

In a careful reading of this entire thread, there really is no disagreement, but the long answers come because not everyone interprets the question in the same manner.

Thus for the newby, the real issue becomes, not trying to determine the right answer, but in understanding the assumptions inherent in the question and the unstated caveats in the responses.

To those new to anchoring out on a regular basis remember there is no disagreement that every boat bigger than a dinghy should have a rode of both chain and rope. The only question is the length of the chain. Those who favor "all chain" really have 200/300 feet of chain and then 10/15 of rope at the bitter end. Those that favor a chain /rope rode typically have less than 50 feet of chain and then rope.

Then you have those with 200 feet of chain and 400 feet of rope for anchoring in locations more than 100 feet deep.

The decision to be made is affected by your boat and the area in which you anchor.

Ok, so here is a newbie question having never been in an anchor locker ... Why would you have a small amount of line as your bitter end, instead of just securing the all chain rode to the boat? Trying to learn.


Kevin
Portland, OR

Bay Pelican said:

To those new to anchoring out on a regular basis remember there is no disagreement that every boat bigger than a dinghy should have a rode of both chain and rope. The only question is the length of the chain. Those who favor "all chain" really have 200/300 feet of chain and then 10/15 of rope at the bitter end. Those that favor a chain /rope rode typically have less than 50 feet of chain and then rope.

Then you have those with 200 feet of chain and 400 feet of rope for anchoring in locations more than 100 feet deep.

The decision to be made is affected by your boat and the area in which you anchor.

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Ahhh...the clear ringing tone of logic shines through the dogma defence squabbles.

keb said:

... Why would you have a small amount of line as your bitter end, instead of just securing the all chain rode to the boat?...

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If you have to drop the chain in an emergency, I sharp knife is quick and easy.

Beter B wrote;
"Have to agree Eric, as when all is said and done, for the catenary to be removed completely by the role rode being pulled straight, thus putting the maximum force on the anchor, which is what we want to avoid, this requires the weight of the whole rode to be pulled taught and lifted. That will/must occur earlier with mixed rode because the synthetic component is much lighter than chain, so the combined rode weight, which is all that's relevant here, is a lot lighter than it would be with the same length of all chain. That is simple unalterable physics. __________________"
In response to words Marin put down.

What is unalterable is that the pull on the anchor will remain the same but what is alterable is the angle of pull or catenary benefit. The position of the weight on the rode has a significant affect on the angle of pull on the anchor. That's why we put anchor buddies (Kellets) low on the rode. If you saw a boater w his anchor buddy a few inches above the water you'd laugh your ass off seeing it. As I've said before the ideal place for the weight of a rode is about 20% of the way up from the anchor. I think. So if you had 40% of your rode in chain you'd probably be close to perfect. And of course that would only apply if you had all the rode out. So the real ideal place for the weight would be about 15% of the way up the rode. So a combo rode w 30% of it's length in chain would be excellent. About as close to perfect as one could get. But that would vary w the overall length of the rode, local conditions, anchor type, typical sea state normally encountered, anchoring for special activities like fishing and personal preference re handling ease ect. Personel preference could take one all the way to all chain but with a considerable loss in ground tackle performance.

What is ALTERABLE physics is that w a combination rode one has a great deal of control over where the weight is along the rode so there's considerable control over the performance of the rode with variations of how large and long the chain part is. Alterable physics and to our benefit w a combination anchor rode. We are in the drivers seat w a combination rode.

keb said:

Ok, so here is a newbie question having never been in an anchor locker ... Why would you have a small amount of line as your bitter end, instead of just securing the all chain rode to the boat? Trying to learn.


Kevin
Portland, OR

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To cut off in an emergency.

Larry M said:

If you have to drop the chain in an emergency, I sharp knife is quick and easy.

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Ok that makes simple sense, although it does seem like a potential failure point. But it's all a compromise right? Thanks!


Kevin
Portland, OR

And make sure you make it, the line, long enough so that it comes out of the chain locker completely, so you can cut it without having to go down to the chain locker.

If time allows, I'd hang a fender on it, so I may retrieve it later.

keb said:

Ok that makes simple sense, although it does seem like a potential failure point. But it's all a compromise right? Thanks!


Kevin
Portland, OR

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No because you never put all your chain out and hang on the bitter end. It's only for an emergency release of the rode.

keb said:

Ok that makes simple sense, although it does seem like a potential failure point. But it's all a compromise right? Thanks!


Kevin
Portland, OR

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You would only run it all the wout in an emergency in any case.

So your chain should always be going thru a chain lock and the windlass wildcat.

Then once the anchor is down, put the chain lock on, so you do not strain the windlass.
Set the anchor

then finally put a snubber on your chain, so now your chain lock becomes the backup and your snubber allows the chain to have some slack in it between the snubber and the chain lock.

Remember the idea is your windlass is there to lift the chain and anchor. Do not stress it beyond that.

Larry M said:

If you have to drop the chain in an emergency, I sharp knife is quick and easy.

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Yes, but not 10 or 15' of line, although some might argue differently.

My opinion and I'm setting up my all chain rode right now so this is a big deal...

All you need at the windlass and is a means of cutting loose the chain if you cannot retrieve it. If you leave enough line on the chain to reach into the windlass you could get yourself into big trouble.

Imagine if you will that you run into a situation where your anchor locker empties for whatever reason. Chain jumps the gypsy for example, or you were just stupid and let it all out.

If you have 10 or 15' of line out there, and you are deep you could have up to several hundred pounds of force on that line. There is no way you'll ever get that line up so the windlass can get a bite on the chain. No way, no how. You will be forced to cut the line, and... the line will be banjo tight making a knot to hold a bouy line well difficult to say the least.

I would say that having a section that you can easily cut, or other means of disconnecting the chain is important, but that section should stay in the chain locker, leaving the windlass with a bite on the chain.

For the "what iffers" out there that will claim in an emergency the time it taes to get to the chain locker could be critical, well you might be right, but I just do not see that situation really happening in practical boating where the 15 seconds or so will make a real difference. And if that 15 seconds does make a difference, whats the chance that my chain will be 100% deployed when it happens?

The end of our chain is attached to a 75' polypropylene rode and fixed to the bottom of the chain locker. We also carry set of bolt cutters that can cut off smaller sections of chain should we choose to go that route.


Via iPhone.

cafesport said:

The end of our chain is attached to a 75' polypropylene rode and fixed to the bottom of the chain locker. We also carry set of bolt cutters that can cut off smaller sections of chain should we choose to go that route.


Via iPhone.

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We also got bolt cutters, they double for use on the chain and also cutting the dinghy cable tie-downs in a emergency.

keb said:

Ok, so here is a newbie question having never been in an anchor locker ... Why would you have a small amount of line as your bitter end, instead of just securing the all chain rode to the boat? Trying to learn.


Kevin
Portland, OR

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One reason if you have to slip anchor fast a sharp knife will do. Another less shock if you go to the bitter end unexpectedly.

It's a good idea to have enough line on the bitter end of the chain between it and the fastening point in the chain locker so if you let out all the chain the line appears on deck so it can be cut and the boat released from the anchor and rode.

This can become necessary with a jammed anchor on the bottom, or if the anchor is dragging and there is no time to haul it up before the boat goes onto a lee shore or rocks or reef which is what nearly happened to us once.

The line plays no role in the actual anchoring of the boat or the behavior of the rode or anchor under pressure. It's simply a safety device.

ksanders said:

Yes, but not 10 or 15' of line, although some might argue differently.

My opinion and I'm setting up my all chain rode right now so this is a big deal...

All you need at the windlass and is a means of cutting loose the chain if you cannot retrieve it. If you leave enough line on the chain to reach into the windlass you could get yourself into big trouble.

Imagine if you will that you run into a situation where your anchor locker empties for whatever reason. Chain jumps the gypsy for example, or you were just stupid and let it all out.

If you have 10 or 15' of line out there, and you are deep you could have up to several hundred pounds of force on that line. There is no way you'll ever get that line up so the windlass can get a bite on the chain. No way, no how. You will be forced to cut the line, and... the line will be banjo tight making a knot to hold a bouy line well difficult to say the least.

I would say that having a section that you can easily cut, or other means of disconnecting the chain is important, but that section should stay in the chain locker, leaving the windlass with a bite on the chain.

For the "what iffers" out there that will claim in an emergency the time it taes to get to the chain locker could be critical, well you might be right, but I just do not see that situation really happening in practical boating where the 15 seconds or so will make a real difference. And if that 15 seconds does make a difference, whats the chance that my chain will be 100% deployed when it happens?

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Kevin,

Think about both situations:
the first, the emergency release, you need to get out of thier now. I don't want to have to retrieve bolt cutters, that even under the best of circumstances are hard to use. Thus the knife. Now, your issue,
the chain has jumped out and it's all gone and you are faced with a line with a few hundred pounds of weight on it.

First of all, u=in this scenario, you have time. It's not getting out of there now, but how to get the chain back on the wildcat. For me it's easy since I have a vertical windlass, with the upper part for line. Assuming you don't have that, it would not take much to figure out how to wrap the few feet of line you need to deal with about the wildcat to give you some degree of help getting the chain back to the windlass.

Or you can even use your dingy boom and winch.

marin's last post about the lee shore is probably more probable than my thought which was a barge or ship coming down a river not under command.
Which I had read about and that's how they saved their boat.

Marin said:

It's a good idea to have enough line on the bitter end of the chain between it and the fastening point in the chain locker so f you let out all the chain the line appears on deck so it can be cut and the boat released from the anchor and rode.

This can become necessary with a jammed anchor on the bottom, or if the anchor is dragging and there is no time to haul it up before the boat goes onto a lee shore or rocks or reef which is what nearly happened to us once.

The line plays no role in the actual anchoring of the boat or the behavior of the rode or anchor under pressure. It's simply a safety device.

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Wxx3 said:

Kevin,

Think about both situations:
the first, the emergency release, you need to get out of thier now. I don't want to have to retrieve bolt cutters, that even under the best of circumstances are hard to use. Thus the knife. Now, your issue,
the chain has jumped out and it's all gone and you are faced with a line with a few hundred pounds of weight on it.

First of all, u=in this scenario, you have time. It's not getting out of there now, but how to get the chain back on the wildcat. For me it's easy since I have a vertical windlass, with the upper part for line. Assuming you don't have that, it would not take much to figure out how to wrap the few feet of line you need to deal with about the wildcat to give you some degree of help getting the chain back to the windlass.

Or you can even use your dingy boom and winch.

marin's last post about the lee shore is probably more probable than my thought which was a barge or ship coming down a river not under command.
Which I had read about and that's how they saved their boat.

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So, for the situation highlighted above in magenta, I just do not see this as a real situation.

The reason I say this is because a similar situation happened to me last summer. We didn't drag per se, what happened is that we anchor'd with a good scope frankly too close to the shoaling area at the head of the bay we were in. The wind was blowing us offshore when we anchor'd but when the wind turned around and the tide was low we found ourselves in very shallow water.

In that case we powered the boat out to a safe depth and then brought in the anchor and reset. No need to cut our anchor rode.

For the situation highlighted in blue, thats wonderful at shallow depths, now try in with a couple hundred pounds of tension on the rode. I have a capstan as well it presents a difficult situation. in order to get the rode around the capstan requires slack.

For the situation where the barge is coming downriver, or a whale gets into your rode yes, this can present an emergency situation. Unless your running a combo rode you are going to have to either cut the chain or deploy that chain out to its end, then cut the attached rode. Either thing is not going to be that quick. I'm going to guess that bolt cutters might be faster.

I'm not advocating not having a cuttable section at the end of your all chain rode. Thats a good idea. What I am indicating is that I would be better served in my opinion to have that rode section short enough that it cannot put me in a situation where a simple mistake, or a simple jumping of the chain in a gypsy puts me in a situation where I have to deal with up to several hundred pounds of force on a line and no way to retrieve that line.

Why not a cutable section under the deck that's too short to go through the deck and a size bigger than typically on a rode. Still easily cutable. That should cover almost all bases.

Not sure I would recommend scrambling towards the interior access to an anchor locker with or even without a sharp knife during a dark stormy. On many boats that is asking for injury and certainly situational awareness being below in an emergency.

Unless you have a lot of line attached to lengthen your rode...all that line is there for is to keep the chain from running overboard by mistake.

If it goes overboard and tight....I would just use a rolling g hitch to it and bring it up on the gypsy side...keep repeating till I had some links on the wildcat.

Scrambling around on deck in the nasty has equal downsides.

psneeld said:

Not sure I would recommend scrambling towards the interior access to an anchor locker with or even without a sharp knife during a dark stormy. On many boats that is asking for injury and certainly situational awareness being below in an emergency.

Unless you have a lot of line attached to lengthen your rode...all that line is there for is to keep the chain from running overboard by mistake.

If it goes overboard and tight....I would just use a rolling g hitch to it and bring it up on the gypsy side...keep repeating till I had some links on the wildcat.

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manyboats said:

Scrambling around on deck in the nasty has equal downsides.

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But that is where you HAVE to be in an anchoring emergency....even a remote switch can't do it all unless you have a windless with shear capability.

ksanders said:

So, for the situation highlighted above in magenta, I just do not see this as a real situation.

.

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In this case we were being driven backwards into the end of the bay and the railroad trestle crossing it by strong winds and waves that had not been forecast to arrrive for another six hours at which point we would have been long gone.

When my wife woke up and realized what was happening, we started the engines but we could not power forward because we'd have run over our own rode and put it into one prop or the other or snagged the rudders.

The original windlass to the boat was very slow. So my wife would power us forward until I signaled her to stop before we ran over the rode. Of course as soon as she stopped the boat instantly began to be blown and knocked backwards by the wind and waves. As the windlass pulled more rode in I'd signal her to come forward again. We were in about 10 feet of water at this point (we'd anchored in 40) and the trestle was less than a boat length behind us.

It was a case of taking one step forward and two steps back.

When it was obvious we were going to lose the race I had actually started reaching for the windlass clutch wheel to let the chain run back out and cut the line on the bitter end when the anchor came out of the water. I signaled my wife to go forward and she did. The trestle at that point was perhaps half a boat length behind us.

We also have friends who one night drug the better part of a mile from where they had been anchored over to the base of the cliffs on the island across the channel from them. They woke up just before colliding with the cliffs and started the engine and got out. In this case, they were in pretty deep water at the base of the cliffs and I don't even know if their anchor was on the bottom at that point.

Our slip neighbors told us they were in the southwestern Pacific in their 40' sloop anchored in an exposed anchorage with other boats when the winds and waves came up unexpectedly. There was a reef about three boat lengths behind them. Boats around them were dragging--- one went onto the reef before they could get their engine going and anchor up. Our slip neighbor's anchor held (Rocna) and they had no problems. But they were prepared to take action should it have become necessary, including cutting the anchor and rode free and powering away.

These kinds of incidents are rare, I'm sure, but they can and do happen. In our case, it inspired us to go in search of a better anchor. But we still have a length of line on the end of our chain rode that will appear on deck (having it go over the wildcat will do no damage to anything) where it can be cut with a line knife which we now keep handy just inside the main cabin door.