Lithium Batteries By Smart

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My question would be.....?????

If LARGE lithium battery banks were that much better and so safe...why wouldn't everybody be using them?

Sure they are all over the place on a small scale...but isn't that true of a lot of newer tech????
 
Cost. Make the cost competitive and they will take off. That's why nickel-cadmium and nickel-metal hydride are already obsolete because lithium is better and now cheap enough. But not on boats or cars yet. I'll bet a case of Thirsty Beaver that all high-end new cars will all have lithium batteries in, say, 5 years? Not so much for a Yaris, say, but the smaller footprint and lighter weight matter for fuel economy. The amount of power new cars use, with all the electrical stuff, is much more than in the past. I read a story where the mobile car servicing companies like BCAA have to carry way more batteries and now jump way more cars now than ever before.
 
But if the cost benefit is true...then some (not necessarily all) businesses would be pressing on...must be something else....

When I'm not well versed on a particular theory, product or methodology...I tend to revert to "what's the rest of the world doing"...
 
One thing to keep in mind is not to paint lithium batteries with too broad a brush. There are several different chemistries at play here and about every year or so a newer chemistry comes out.

Long winded way of saying the batteries that gave Boeing a black eye are not necessarily the same batteries you find in a laptop or off grid storage bank. "LI" is only the common prefix, there's normally several letter/number combos that follow them. Those follow on digits are where the chemical make up changes significantly.
 
Tesla is pumping out ~9000 lithium battery powered cars per year with many, many more to come. No fires yet that weren't due to something else. That should help move along the conversion.
 
Tesla is pumping out ~9000 lithium battery powered cars per year with many, many more to come. No fires yet that weren't due to something else. That should help move along the conversion.

Add 50,000 each year for The Leaf and the Volt and there are a lot of big battery packs being used a lot more then people use their boats and doing it very safely. I suspect if the price were to go down a lot of our "safety" concerns would too. :)

Jim
 
I am considering the new generation Lithium Batteries for my powercat. It seems the safety issues with these have been dealt with properly. Now, the upside is substantial. Any opinions on the new Lithium batteries by Smart?

Back to the original question. If weight savings and space are important, and price OK with your personal wallet, by all means give them a good look. In FL where solar panels can be implemented (as compared to Northern locations) a real application indeed has been shown.

Search the archives and you'll find a good discussion by some very smart Li battery user/builders from your area. These people have left TF since new things are all too easily cast aside in internet mud slinging. But be advised, doing Li battery installs without the right electrical setup is a no no.

Now, for a slow heavy trawler I love lead, the more the better as it serves as great ballast.

For the new to boating guys, a burning battery can give you a sinking feeling. With a Tesla you just park it when the smell gets above the seat leather whiffs.
 
I don't hear anybody saying LI batteries are bad. . . they're just not ready for prime time!!

Best advice, check with your insurance company before you buy. Here, in part, is what Boat US say about LI:

Lithium-Ion Batteries:
Handle With Care
For most recreational boaters, the expense and risks still outweigh the benefits of this rapidly-evolving technology.

Published: April 2014

Who wouldn't want a battery one-quarter the weight and size of their current lead-acid battery but with comparable energy storage capacity? Most of us have grown comfortable with the lithium-ion (Li-ion) batteries in our smartphones and laptops, so it's natural to assume they will work in cars, on aircraft, and in our boats. Unfortunately, safely scaling up these compact, energy-dense batteries to the much larger sizes needed to meet heavy-duty energy demands is not straightforward. In addition, the technology is still developing, and there are already enough types of Li-ion batteries to tongue tie a chemical engineer: lithium iron phosphate, lithium manganese oxide, and lithium nickel manganese cobalt, to name a few. Each has its own voltage, energy density, and safety characteristics. Before getting lost in the details of these competing chemistries, any boater considering installing Li-ion batteries on their vessel needs to understand the risks and the costs, not just the benefits.

Li-ion Battery Challenges
Unlike conventional batteries, when Li-ion batteries fail, they can do so catastrophically. Here's the problem: When an individual Li-ion cell gets overcharged, it gets hot. This can initiate a process of self-heating that causes the cell temperature to continue to rise even if the cell is taken off charge — something known as thermal runaway. Once started, thermal runaway is difficult to stop. Depending on the battery chemistry, the cell may get hot enough to spontaneously catch fire.

It gets worse: If a single cell enters thermal runaway, it begins to overheat its neighbor, which overheats the next one, and so on. This can cause a cascading failure that results in the battery burning uncontrollably. Even if a cell that has entered thermal runaway does not get hot enough to catch fire, it can swell up and rupture, venting the flammable electrolyte.

The potential for thermal runaway with any Li-ion battery chemistry means that when installing them on boats, they aren't plug-and-play. They charge at different voltages than lead-acid batteries do, and simply connecting them to a conventional charger is asking for trouble. To keep their concentrated power in check, Li-ion batteries rely on a sophisticated management system that actually tracks and balances the voltage differences between each cell, unlike the monitoring systems used with lead-acid batteries that simply show you what's going on. Among other things, proper management systems also contain over-voltage and short-circuit protection. Unfortunately, these management systems are vulnerable to lightning strikes or power surges, and any failure in the system can lead to a fire. While some Li-ion chemistries may be more resistant to thermal runaway than others, if you mismatch a charging system or choose the wrong battery management system, you could still find yourself with a charred hull. That's why the design and installation of Li-ion battery systems are best left to professionals.

If the potential dangers of Li-ion batteries are not enough to convince a hopeful early adopter to wait for the technology to mature, the price almost certainly will. A single replacement house battery will set you back around $2,000, and that's before the battery management system and the upgrades to alternators, battery chargers, and voltage regulators.

The Future Of Li-ion Batteries
Li-ion batteries have a bit in common with propane tanks: They're a high-energy storage system that is potentially dangerous. Fortunately, with propane, we (usually) manage to avoid disaster. But propane systems have a complete set of American Boat and Yacht Council (ABYC) safety standards that govern their installation and use. While the ABYC is closely following developments, Li-ion batteries are an evolving technology, one that the aircraft and auto industries still haven't perfected. Until the market narrows down to one or two chemistries and reliable, robust battery management systems, it's all but impossible to develop standards for the safe installation and use of Li-ion batteries on boats.

While Li-ion batteries may just revolutionize heavy-duty energy storage someday, the costs and risks still outweigh the benefits for most recreational boats. Until more data exist on which type of Li-ion batteries work best for boats, and what unexpected issues may arise, Seaworthy recommends that most boaters steer clear of these compact, high-energy batteries. For the few boats where the benefits of Li-ion batteries might outweigh the expense and the risks, such as offshore racing sailboats and tournament bass boats, we recommend that the systems be professionally installed and professionally maintained.End of story marker


The damage-avoidance newsletter, is brought to you by the BoatUS Marine Insurance Program. For an insurance quote, please call 1-800-283-2883 or apply online at BoatUS.com.
 
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Just looked at Genasun 2014 pricing (that was supposed to be 2015 pricing). Geez, 7 boat bucks for a 360AH one battery system???
 
LiFePO4. They are somewhat different from the cell phone batteries.

They are still very expensive. Over enough years they will more than balance out but the initial SYSTEM investment is high yet. They are not yet at the stage of a swap out. Treat them that way and the way many treat their wet cells, agms, and gel cells and with that level of misunderstanding and there is GOING to be trouble.

They are still at the bit fiddler stage meaning a dedicated owner who understands more than most of us about their use and care.

They need specialized chargers, alternators will need a specialized controller, and the monitoring has to be done at EACH cell for any developing cell imbalance.

Pound for pound they can outperform our current types, same capacity in a much smaller footprint, higher discharge/recharge rates, deeper discharge w/o damage.

It will come but more work needs to be done. You will find there is a lot more to it for a safe installation than just the batteries themselves.

Look at all the people even now who confuse and mistreat ,for substantially shorter life, our wetcells, agms, gels.

Read Edelweiss's posting for more info.

I was thinking, semi-seriously, about them as I will ,this spring, need to replace my now 12-13 years old gel cell set. Considering my gels lasted this long i don't think the change over , for me, will be worthwhile. But it got me looking at them, enough to figure out that they are still at the bit fiddler stage.
 
What I find amazing about all this, if I am reading it right, is not so much the weight advantage or the price disadvantage, it is the fact that these new batteries can be discharged to about 5% capacity.

I have just bought two new house AGM's, about 440 AH each, so that gives me 880 AH of house power right? However I am advised not to run them below 50% capacity if I want them to last. So really my existing two battery set up gives me 440AH of usable capacity, and even at this recommended usage they will last nowhere near as long as the new all singing and dancing batteries.

Once the new batteries reach a price ratio of two to one in regard to the old lead acid batteries, then I think it is game over for the old guys.

The question is when will that ratio be achieved?
 
What I find amazing about all this, if I am reading it right, is not so much the weight advantage or the price disadvantage, it is the fact that these new batteries can be discharged to about 5% capacity.

I have just bought two new house AGM's, about 440 AH each, so that gives me 880 AH of house power right? However I am advised not to run them below 50% capacity if I want them to last. So really my existing two battery set up gives me 440AH of usable capacity, and even at this recommended usage they will last nowhere near as long as the new all singing and dancing batteries.

Once the new batteries reach a price ratio of two to one in regard to the old lead acid batteries, then I think it is game over for the old guys.

The question is when will that ratio be achieved?

Another item is long term safety. To me, that is top concern.
 
What I find amazing about all this, if I am reading it right, is not so much the weight advantage or the price disadvantage, it is the fact that these new batteries can be discharged to about 5% capacity.

I have just bought two new house AGM's, about 440 AH each, so that gives me 880 AH of house power right? However I am advised not to run them below 50% capacity if I want them to last. So really my existing two battery set up gives me 440AH of usable capacity, and even at this recommended usage they will last nowhere near as long as the new all singing and dancing batteries.

Once the new batteries reach a price ratio of two to one in regard to the old lead acid batteries, then I think it is game over for the old guys.

The question is when will that ratio be achieved?

What size are those 440 AH batteries? Are they 12V?
 
A 440 ah 8D? Wow Andy, that raises the capacity, more than doubles the conventional 200ah 8D. What brand/source?
I was pleased at finding 54kg of 225ah lead acid flooded 8D (sitting in the garage waiting for me to complete a gym program so I can fit it), giving an extra 50ah total, but yours is a great find. The 50% limit also applies to conventional batts, so you still made headway.
 
I've never seen an 8D with that much capacity. What brand is the battery?
 
Reuben Trane, who infrequently posts on TF, is IMHO the go to boating guy on this subject. For those who seriously want to pursue the install and safety issues check out his website and contact him.

Given celectrics credentials and expertise I will be quite interested as he ruminates on replacing his gels vs going Li. What bothers me about the articles in the boating mags on going the Li route is separating the marketing hype and paid tester/expert hoopla from reality.
 
A very good article on LiFePO4 batteries here:

LiFePO4 Batteries - Thoughts & Musings Photo Gallery by Compass Marine How To at pbase.com

Executive summary:
Not for the poor
Not for the less than very technically inclined
Not for the faint of heart
Not ready for prime time

This is an interesting blog but it is totally a DIY project. Unfortunately his posts are not dated so not sure how it compares with the single Genasun 360AH single battery (113lbs) I looked at on the web. The Genasuns come with a control pack to manage the batteries that includes 2 latching relays, a custom power switch with cable, and a battery management system. Definitely not for the poor but not sure the other conclusions are called for. The blogger flat out states Genasun and Mastervolt make well engineered but costly systems for marine applications but seems like he wanted a DIY approach and then turns around and says don't do what I did. If the Genasun pricing were $1500 instead of $7000, they would be very tempting.
 
There is at least one very long thread on Cruising Forum about LiFePo batteries. The previous link is Mainsail's website and he knows his stuff. He is a marine electrician and is testing on a boat and I think in a "lab" how many cycles the batteries can take as well as other parameters so he can install LiFePos systems on his Customer's boats. It seems that once the controllers are correctly configured to handle LiFePo batteries, they will be the future of boating and maybe off grid PV installations. While LiFePo batteries are expensive, if you look at the life time cost of these things, they start to make money sense.

The chemistry is also very safe.

The problem with LiFePo batteries, besides the upfront cost, is that they are NOT a drop in replacement for lead acid batteries. The controllers have to be programed to handle the characteristics of the LiFePo batteries. It does not seem like rocket science, you just have to know what you are doing and the information is out there to do correctly if one wants to take on the job. One just canNOT buy LiFePo batteries and use them to replace lead acid batteries.

The LiFePo take a huge charge of power very quickly, something like 90% charged in an hour, and they can be taken to about 20-30% DOD without damage. LiFePo batteries also have much more use cycles over lead acid. I have seen 1,000 to 3,000 cycles documented depending on how far the batteries were drawn down. What it works out too, is one could replace about half of the power capacity in lead acid with LiFePo and LiFePo batteries are about half the weight of lead acid. Roughly the same power storage, that can be charged very quickly, for half the weight and space. :thumb:

Later,
Dan
 
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One just can buy LiFePo batteries and use them to replace lead acid batteries.

I trust you meant you cannot use these as a drop-in replacement for LA batteries!

Currently the ideal application for these is on racing sailboats and the like where weight and speed of charge are critical. I can't see them making sense on a trawler until they become a lot less expensive.
 
I trust you meant you cannot use these as a drop-in replacement for LA batteries!

Currently the ideal application for these is on racing sailboats and the like where weight and speed of charge are critical. I can't see them making sense on a trawler until they become a lot less expensive.

Yes, a missing t or not rather changes what I meant to say. :banghead::rofl: Thanks, I corrected the post. :thumb:

From a weight perspective, I don't think a full displacement trawler cares about LiFePo. But, the faster charging time, saved space, discharge characteristics, and most importantly, life time, then LiFePo makes some sense. It really gets down to cost but I don't think the cost is as bad as they seem due to the longer life time of the LiFePo batteries vs lead acid.

Later,
Dan
 
Statement/Question:


If LA batts are mistakenly left unattended while still having some sort of continued substantial draw for long period of time, with no recharge offered, to the point where they reach the point of being flat-dead, they will likely be ruined and need to be replaced. That occasionally happens.


Is it same with LiFePo batts... if same condition happened would they also be ruined and need replacement?




If so - the immediate need for undergoing that cost would become a BIG factor!
 
...
If LA batts are mistakenly left unattended while still having some sort of continued substantial draw for long period of time, with no recharge offered, to the point where they reach the point of being flat-dead, they will likely be ruined and need to be replaced. That occasionally happens.

Is it same with LiFePo batts... if same condition happened would they also be ruined and need replacement?

...

Over discharging or over charging LiFePo batteries is a bad thing. I think I read that one of the parts of the system that needs/should be in place for LiFePo is a circuit to prevent both over discharge and over charge states. Course, it seems like that would be good on lead acid batteries too.

Another advantage of LiFePo is that they self discharge at a very low rate. The guys testing the systems are going weeks/months with very little self discharge.

If I had to buy a battery system right now, I suspect I would go with lead acid, due to price and I don't like to be a pioneer. Pioneers tend to collect arrows the hard way. :eek::) But I do think that Real Soon Now, LiFePo will be available as a system and at a more affordable price.

Later,
Dan
 
What ever happened to KISS?

For most inshore cruisers Sears or Wallmart golf cart batts can be replaced with just a Taxi Cab ride.

Perhaps not as good as Trojan or Surette, but way easier to replace.

No need to have exoctic replacements shipped in a truck (many airlines will now not fly certain batts )and fly in an expert to set up a charging system.
 
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What ever happened to KISS?

For most inshore cruisers Sears or Wallmart golf cart batts can be replaced with just a Taxi Cab ride.

Perhaps not as good as Trojan or Surette, but way easier to replace.

No need to have exoctic replacements shipped in a truck (many airlines will now not fly certain batts )and fly in an expert to set up a charging system.

:thumb::thumb::thumb:
 
What ever happened to KISS?

For most inshore cruisers Sears or Wallmart golf cart batts can be replaced with just a Taxi Cab ride.

Perhaps not as good as Trojan or Surette, but way easier to replace.

No need to have exoctic replacements shipped in a truck (many airlines will now not fly certain batts )and fly in an expert to set up a charging system.

LiFePo are as simple as lead acid batteries. The only difference is the "system" has been built around lead acid. People and systems are programmed to use lead acid. All that has to be done to use LiFePo is to replace the parameters for lead acid with the configuration for LiFePo.

The point with LiFePo is that you can have fewer batteries for the same power or double the power storage for about the same weight and space AND likely never have to replace the batteries again.

One of my questions about LiFePo is that I suspect that one could have a LiFePo battery system, that would negate the need for a generator. How much money does it save if you don't need a generator?

Because LiFePo batteries can take a huge amount of power quickly, I wonder if one can size the battery bank with one or two alternators that would properly load the main engine at anchor. *** IF *** that is the case, why have a generator?

Hopefully, PV, and maybe a wind generator, would handle power production most of the time and the engine would only have to be run every once in awhile.

I suspect this would work but the need for air conditioning is a big question.

LiFePo is not more complicated, it is just that people and the systems are all setup for, and used too, lead acid.

Later,
Dan
 
One of my questions about LiFePo is that I suspect that one could have a LiFePo battery system, that would negate the need for a generator. How much money does it save if you don't need a generator?

Because LiFePo batteries can take a huge amount of power quickly, I wonder if one can size the battery bank with one or two alternators that would properly load the main engine at anchor. *** IF *** that is the case, why have a generator?
Later

It's that kind of thinking outside the box and not being a good herd member that can get you in trouble ;)
 
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