All chain rode versus rope

Wxx3 said:

There are many reasons a mixed rode is useful. I have one and can make more. I'll use one for my stern anchor this summer.

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We have a combination rode for our stern anchor. Both the rode and the anchor are sized to be the main anchor for the boat should we want to use it for that. We chose a combination rode because it's lighter and easier to handle by hand. We keep it in a large milk-crate type box on the aft deck so it's easy to carry forward. I forget how long it is. It's either 200 or 250 feet with 36 feet of 5/16" chain on the anchor end. The anchor itself is a Fortress FX-23.

BruceK said:

Fairly sure the use instructions(googled them a while back) for the Anchor Buddy, are to slide it down, attached to the rode using the provision on the AB to do that, and position it just off the bottom at low tide.
Does that fit with using a catenary, I think it might be a little different in that it seeks to place weight on the rode straight down, with the rode lying virtually flat from AD to your choice of anchor. A wind loading could make it more a catenary, maybe temporarily. Must try my AB, it came with the boat.

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Here it is - check it out. Bruce you are correct.

Anchor Buddy - anchor weights made in New Zealand A proven anchor sentinel / kellet anchoring system

Northern Spy said:

Murray,

If you really want to expand your education on anchoring, instead of repetitive opinion, google "drag enbedment anchor".

There is loads of scholarly papers out there about this topic.

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What! And ruin a 14 page thread.

Wxx3 said:

For those of you who advocate mixed rodes as the primary, whether it's poly, wet or dry nylon, or cat's guts, you do understand that it is the weight of the chain which keeps the neck of the anchor on the seabed floor?

The more chain you put out, the heavier the weight, the more inclined your anchor is to stay imbedded.

A simple yes or no would suffice.

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We use a mixed rode now. I do not advocate it; it's just what we use for our circumstances.

Yes.

-Chris

One more time Marin.

Have your wife hold a 1/8" line or string between her fingers a comfortable distance apart .. about 4'. Tell her to adjust the "droop" in the line to about 4". now you pull or press down 3 or 4" in from either end that she is holding and notice that the "droop" is much less on the other side and much more on the side you pushed down. We now know where to put the weight to maximize catenary.

Now have her raise one end some and you apply the weight near the upper end. Same thing happens but to a lesser degree. It dosn't quit happening until the line is vertical. And the maximum increase in catenary is when the line is horizontal.

So on a long scope w the weight fairly close to the anchor gives the maximum benefit to catenary. And I've never seen a boater put the heavy chain on the boat end of the rode.

That's all.

Thank you Walt for the wonderful picture of catenary.

MurrayM said:

Polyester ropes do not lose strength when wet and are generally stronger than nylon in wet condition. Thus polyester ropes are now supplanting nylon in many critical conventional marine applications and are good candidates for deep water mooring systems."

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Finally!
Some new information on anchor lines! Great post!

Northern Spy said:

Murray,

If you really want to expand your education on anchoring, instead of repetitive opinion, google "drag enbedment anchor".

There is loads of scholarly papers out there about this topic.

Click to expand...

Thanks, but not looking for a new rabbit hole to go running down this morning...this was interesting though (in between the 'nerdy bits')

https://www.westerndredging.org/pho...a - Drag Embedded Anchor Holding Capacity.pdf

I came to my knowledge of the ocean through sea kayaking, so may have a more open mind than somebody steeped in boating traditions. I also have some rock climbing experience which might make me more aware of the limitations in nylon ropes.

Polyester seems to be the natural choice between the nylon combination rode and all chain rode camps.

When we get enough experience under our belts to start venturing out for long trips during winter (maybe 3 or 4 years from now) I'm pretty sure our storm anchor will have a polyester / chain rode.

Why? First off, we need at least a 600 foot style SE Alaska arrangement for our area and there's no way our boat can comfortably carry that much chain on the bow. Secondly; during a vicious storm the last thing I want is the sinking feeling that our attachment to the anchor just got 20% weaker because it got wet, and that with every cyclic loading episode it is losing strength.

Climbing ropes have a fall rating, whereby after a certain number of hard falls the rope is retired because the damage done absorbing impact forces makes it weaker...do you know how much damage has been done to your nylon rode, and what its actual remaining strength is?

Wxx3 said:

There are many reasons a mixed rode is useful. I have one and can make more. I'll use one for my stern anchor this summer.

But I am still perplexed, therefore I have a simple question.

For those of you who advocate mixed rodes as the primary, whether it's poly, wet or dry nylon, or cat's guts, you do understand that it is the weight of the chain which keeps the neck of the anchor on the seabed floor?

The more chain you put out, the heavier the weight, the more inclined your anchor is to stay imbedded.

A simple yes or no would suffice.

As unlike things like anchors, where the data is varied, this is simply physics.

Do they teach that in school nowadays?

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Hi Richard...

Being an "old school" teacher you can take heart that once upon a time “meaningful facts” were referred to and utilized for teaching purposes/curriculum in many courses, physics included. Now-a-days factual realities have been much supplanted via Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, Texting, and other time absorbing "commune" medias that have left most of the term “learning facts” out of their lexicon/equation. Learning has been replaced it with “meaningless busy work”; i.e., Insta-BS-Communications (see “Points in Fact” below).

It is astounding (down heartening) to see our grandkids too often not able to rip their faces away from tiny little screens while feverously typing away and reading replies with the occasional laugh. When at our house we give them 30 minutes to complete (compete??) on their cell phone… Then it goes in a locked drawer.

I drove 150 miles yesterday for meetings in SF, Oakland, Mill Valley. Every bus stop had people, young and old, glued into their cell phone screens. People bumping into each other on sidewalks with nose in screen. Street Crosswalks with large percentage of crossers not paying any attention to traffic or lights with nose in screen.

Now… I’m not saying that some of this “new age” communication availability doesn’t also offer very good uses, because it does. What I am saying is that this multi-levels-deep insta-communications revolution has created/hypnotized an enormous sector of the population into zombie like people that are additive to nose-in-screen, fingers-on-keys and mind in neutral on mostly meaningless BS interactions that supplant their time and mental efforts previously placed on actual, meaningful facts as well as important life-conditions. This addictive “must-communicate-about-nothing” phenomena now capturing too large percentage of population has not only become dangerous to developing minds of youngsters… in addition, it’s incessant, nearly mindless usage is also increasingly dangerous to life and limb.

Points in Fact:

- Texting While Walking http://www.healthline.com/health-news/tech-texting-while-walking-causes-accidents-031014
- Texting & Cell Phone Use While Driving https://www.edgarsnyder.com/car-accident/cause-of-accident/cell-phone/cell-phone-statistics.html

- I’ve watched closely over shoulder and seen what our grandkids do for/in their cell phone communications. OMG – It’s basically meaningless BS gibberish to many, many other texting kids who are doing the same thing at same time. When I asked our 14 yr. old grandson how many text friends he has the answer was over five hundred (that’ right – over 500 “text buddies” from anywhere world!). Communications between these young texters/tweeters range from one word to maybe seven words. The kids can stay at this for hours if let be. Luckily our grandkids are all doing well in school. I wonder about some of the other kids that are doing all this “phone-time”???


Sorry for the Hijack Segway… back to the thread and your question: My answer is of course - - > Yes!

All the talk about chain helping the anchor stay at the right orientation makes me wonder what would have happened if the fortress soft mud anchor test would have put a few hundred feet of chain on the heavy old school anchors that did so poorly? Would have the tiny 13lb fortress still with little or no chain dug in and shamed the field? I don't know the answer and knowing it would be very helpful in deciding how much chain is important and with which anchors. Could it be that some anchors without the help of a long chain will with proper scope dig in based on their design and balance and other anchors would need or benefit by the long chain? I would guess that the lite aluminum spades and fortress were not designed to need long chains it would be counter to the idea of a lite anchor? Would the fortress have done even better with a long chain?

If you anchor in 30' of water and put out 210' of chain, and 180' of chain never move from where you placed it on the bottom, is that a "perfect" set? Scope never plays a part in "anchoring" in this scenario and the anchor basically just pulls the chain out so it can lay on the bottom. "Yes", I understand the chain holds down the neck of the anchor. After it IS held down, how much more chain do you need to lay on the bottom? Part of the argument for a mixed rode.

Richard,
Yes of course. But the anchor end of that chain benefits tremendously from the weight of the chain whereas the other end attached to the boat hardly has any effect at all.
That's the reason the chain is always attached to the anchor end w a mixed rode. As the chain gets closer and closer to the boat the benefits diminish down to nothing at the anchor roller.
If one is using chain for the catenary benefits it's weight provides putting the chain and hence it's weight in the most beneficial place along the rode is best. Far better for the catenary.

Richard, ummmm, er, uh.....Yes as a practical matter.

I've voted with my feet and 90 percent of the time, I use all chain (my first 200 feet). Chain is easier, it's reliable and its predictable. It's natural catenary allows me to maintain a shallow rode lead angle to the bottom, which in my experience is exponentially more important than both the type and often size of the anchor on the bottom. Chain allows me to maintain that shallow lead angle with shorter scope too. It's more durable than line and has a long life for my frequent anchoring.

That said, I read some interesting bits in the only book I've found on the subject. "The complete book of anchoring and mooring" by Hinz. As I have personally observed first hand when rafting with two heavy boats, it takes less pull than anticipated to actually pull all the catenary out of a chain. Worse, since chain relies exclusively on its catenary for absorbing shock loads, we are left with a small bit of rode snubber to provide cushion, and it's not enough. I've watched a wind gust straighten my chain and then tug the anchor into dragging before resetting.

Heinz calculated the amount of sag inherent in the catenary of a given length of chain. For a 100 foot section of chain, he demonstrated 15 feet of sag in a chain, translating to a potential of nearly 3 foot of horizontal extension if you were to try to pull out that catenary, this at ten knots of wind. However, the same calculations at 20 knots of wind showed the available extension down to a half a foot. It took much less wind increase to take out the chain catenary than I would have expected. Which is why I go to line after my initial 200 foot, building in stretch and shock adsorption, while increasingly relying on proper scope as the wind builds.

As I said, in 90 percent of my anchoring, I'm an all chain guy, but when the wind blows I want to achieve my low rode lead angle with a fair degree of shock adsorption in excess of what I can achieve with chain alone. At least, once I have the full effect of 200 feet of chain working for me that is.

manyboats said:

One more time Marin.

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Eric-- Other than being a somewhat entertaining excercise this whole business is a moot point since we solved the whole problem of where to put weight 17 years ago when we put an all-chain rode on the boat (to replace the rusty too-short all-chain rode that was already on the boat). All-chain puts the weight right where it's needed every time.

Ghost,
Very straight thinking. I like it.
But perhaps 50' of chain the same weight as your 200' would deliver the shock absorption so desireable while anchoring in 30' of water. Most anchorages in our area are about that deep so you't be using all chain without the benefits of your nylon shock absorber using 200' of chain.

I hold to my decades tried and true anchoring technique:


1. Utilize a good anchor (of desired style, brand, model) that is at least one level up from recommended size for your boat


2. Attach 12 to 14 feet of applicable sized chain to anchor shank (more chain length if you like)


3. Attach a few hundred feet of applicable sized anchor-line to the chain (more or less line length if you like)


4. Know (or quickly learn) what the bottom consistency is you are anchoring in, as well as how to properly "drop" and "set" your type anchor


5. Provide ample scope for conditions at hand


YRMV - However: If you follow my recommendations of #'s 1, 4, and 5... as long as it is strong enough, then the type of rode material-product (chain or combo chain/line) becomes relatively incidental.


Reason I use majority line and some lead chain: It works, is simple to deal with, and quite affordable while providing reduced bow weight.

That said: I do not recommend line only without at least 12' chain lead to anchor shank.


Happy Anchor Daze! - Art

Eric-- One final comment and then I think I'm done. If you put the weight close to the anchor you are in effect making the anchor heavier, which in itself is not a bad thing of course.

But if there is a lot of pressure on the rode, the angle of pull on the weight will be quite high which will reduce the effectiveness of the weight and may even lift it thus increasing the angle of pull on the anchor itself because the weight is so close. So you're back to where you started.

If the weight is farther out from the anchor the pressure will still lift it up but because there is some distance now between the weight and the anchor, the angle of pull on the anchor will be somewhat less. Which is all that matters.

As I said, all-chain elminates the need to screw around with the "where to put the weight" question which is why we chose to use it.

Marin said:

Eric-- One final comment and then I think I'm done. If you put the weight close to the anchor you are in effect making the anchor heavier, which in itself is not a bad thing of course.

But if there is a lot of pressure on the rode, the angle of pull on the weight will be quite high which will reduce the effectiveness of the weight and may even lift it thus increasing the angle of pull on the anchor itself because the weight is so close. So you're back to where you started.

If the weight is farther out from the anchor the pressure will still lift it up but because there is some distance now between the weight and the anchor, the angle of pull on the anchor will be somewhat less. Which is all that matters.

As I said, all-chain elminates the need to screw around with the "where to put the weight" question which is why we chose to use it.

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No I think the whole point of the modern deep digging anchor is lost and completely ignored in this all chain concept and the ensuing arguments. Its the anchor and how it is balanced or designed to set then dig in that counts when it comes to holding power and that has little if any thing to do with all chain or all rode. The arguments for all chain as to ease of use have some merit especially in a poorly set up windless -wildcat situation. chain is better for abrasion resistance. Rode especially modern braid is cheaper stronger lighter handles shock loads and comes up much cleaner and stores better in a locker and does not rust or stain. When a digging anchor goes 3 or 4 feet down it matters not maybe for the first 3 feet(wire best) what attaches it to the boat it is going to hold a lot better than a Bruce- plow or other none deep digger. Use a deep digger learn how to use it ,have a windless wildcat that can handle chain and rode set the angles and sizes right and some form of chain rode combo is an excellent combination. There will be boats that have trouble with the combo not because it does not work but because the particular set up on that boat is wrong.

Wooo the poor newbie trying to visualize the many items we decades experienced boaters say about anchoring - details!


All I can state to the newbies, hoping to relieve some pressure, is... Go forth and conquer!


Once you get into doing it... anchoring tain't too bad at all. Just purchase good equipment and talk to a few who have years of anchoring experience. Reading book or two on the subject is good too.


Cheers! Art

Art said:

Wooo the poor newbie trying to visualize the many items we decades experienced boaters say about anchoring - details!


All I can state to the newbies, hoping to relieve some pressure, is... Go forth and conquer!


Once you get into doing it... anchoring tain't too bad at all. Just purchase good equipment and talk to a few who have years of anchoring experience. Reading book or two on the subject is good too.


Cheers! Art

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Newbies might have to be restricted from anchoring and all chain threads maybe also threads arguing the pros and cons of FD and SD hulls certainly will confuse them if not restricted. Once they have some experience and have formed their own strong biases they can have access.

Makes you wonder how most of us managed to get into boating without killing ourselves before Al Gore invented the internet.

Personally, I think it's a mistake for a newbie to try to get meaningful information off the internet. All he or she will get are endless discussions containing opinions from people who he or she has no way of judging their credibility.

This is why I firmly believe-- regardless of the activity: boating, flying, hiking, fishing, off-road driving, you name it--- in searching out the information one needs in person from real live people who's credibility you can judge in person based on something other than what they typed on an open forum.

I use Al Gore's fancy ether box to find out where I can buy the toaster I want or what hotel is good to use in downtown Beijing, but I never use it to find out important stuff like what's the correct oil for my engine or what's the best rode and anchor to use for our boat in this region. For that info, I go to people I have learned of or searched out who I can determine for myself have the exprience and knowledge about the particular subject I'm interested in.

Forum's like this are great places to entertain ourselves bickering about anchors and rodes and hull types and whatever. They are, in my opinion, terrible places for newbies to try and get the infomation one needs when one is starting out in an activity. If I were a newbie to boating and asked on this forum the kinds of questions we needed anwered when we started out, I'd be scared to death to even consider getting a boat because I'd become convinced that whatever we did, it would be horribly wrong in somebody's opinon.

Fortuantely we deliberately didn't use the internet when we decided to get into cruising, and our boat selection and boat buying experience was terrific as well as being a hell of a lot of fun. And we got exactly the right boat for our needs at the time.

I don't know....I think even the newbies if they lurk for a few months and read the tech threads and not the endless feel good babble ones...I think they figure out who knows what and where to go for further info (good posters include links enough to show where their posts fit in the world).

if not, enough reality drifts in and out of threads that it gives a slight heads up where to go for more info.

Sometimes I search for stuff and and can't find it till someone in a thread uses the correct terminology or name and bingo...home run.

I agree with you but I believe one can find good information a lot faster in person than hanging around a forum for a few months.

We recently wanted to change the sight tubes on our fuel tanks. I could have asked a forum or two, and I would have gotten endless posts that dragged on for days if not weeks about use this, use that, don't use this, and so on.

Instead I picked up the phone and called a friend who's been in the marine industry for a lot of decades and has dealt with this exact issue countless times in everything from old cruisers like ours to newbuild superyachts. I had the right answer in five minutes including where to get the material.

Marin said:

I agree with you but I believe one can find good information a lot faster in person than hanging around a forum for a few months.

We recently wanted to change the sight tubes on our fuel tanks. I could have asked a forum or two, and I would have gotten endless posts that dragged on for days if not weeks about use this, use that, don't use this, and so on.

Instead I picked up the phone and called a friend who's been in the marine industry for a lot of decades and has dealt with this exact issue countless times in everything from old cruisers like ours to newbuild superyachts. I had the right answer in five minutes including where to get the material.

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Not everyone has contacts...and many so called shipwrights and marina/yard professionals I have encountered actually know less than some here about specific topics.

It is like going to your doctor after you have painstakingly researched something you think is wrong with you...chances are, you know more than him/her if it is unusual....and know as much as all but the absolute top specialists in the world. When it come to long term treatment...sure you have to be in good hands..but up front..just knowing the basics is extremely valuable and a lot of that can come from the internet.

I don't suggest doing self service brain surgery from threads in the general maintenance section...but they may point you in the right direction who can...more so than the top dog at your marina/yard.

psneeld said:

Not everyone has contacts...

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Absolutely true. But had I not had this particular contact, I know how to go about finding people like this in this area.

I've said this before, but a college professor I had once told our class that the only lasting value of an education is learning how to learn. Which means figuring out the path to follow to find the person or people who know what you need to know.

We all do this to some extent, some better than others. The other day I had to hire a video crew in Beijing to shoot something for me that was not cost-effective for us to go over and do ourselves. I'd never had to do this before. It took something like three e-mails and coupe of phone calls and by midnight of the same day (time difference, remember?) we had a first rate crew lined up and hired. It's all about knowing how to learn.

The internet is a handy tool, no question. It's primary value to me has been for historical research. But I never use the internet to get answers to questions having to do with our boats or our vehicles or plane or the health of our lawn. If I don't already know who to contact, I figure out the path to get to the kinds of people to contact and then follow that path. And so far, it has worked successfuly every time, or at least every time that I can remember.

Marin has stated in post 260 exactly what runs through my head every time I see a newbie ask a significant question particularly one where opinion and bias are common. Some things I believe should not be decided on the internet. I have six kids and I am a single mom never spent any time on a boat should I live aboard? What kind of boat should I buy? What anchor should I use? There are many things I can learn from the net but not answers to those types of questions.

More comparisons between nylon and polyester;

BoatUS – Hurricane Center – Nylon Lines

Marin said:

Makes you wonder how most of us managed to get into boating without killing ourselves before Al Gore invented the internet.

Personally, I think it's a mistake for a newbie to try to get meaningful information off the internet. All he or she will get are endless discussions containing opinions from people who he or she has no way of judging their credibility.

This is why I firmly believe-- regardless of the activity: boating, flying, hiking, fishing, off-road driving, you name it--- in searching out the information one needs in person from real live people who's credibility you can judge in person based on something other than what they typed on an open forum.

I use Al Gore's fancy ether box to find out where I can buy the toaster I want or what hotel is good to use in downtown Beijing, but I never use it to find out important stuff like what's the correct oil for my engine or what's the best rode and anchor to use for our boat in this region. For that info, I go to people I have learned of or searched out who I can determine for myself have the exprience and knowledge about the particular subject I'm interested in.

Forum's like this are great places to entertain ourselves bickering about anchors and rodes and hull types and whatever. They are, in my opinion, terrible places for newbies to try and get the infomation one needs when one is starting out in an activity. If I were a newbie to boating and asked on this forum the kinds of questions we needed anwered when we started out, I'd be scared to death to even consider getting a boat because I'd become convinced that whatever we did, it would be horribly wrong in somebody's opinon.

Fortuantely we deliberately didn't use the internet when we decided to get into cruising, and our boat selection and boat buying experience was terrific as well as being a hell of a lot of fun. And we got exactly the right boat for our needs at the time.

Click to expand...

Party Pooper!

Art said:

Party Pooper!

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Art--- I suspect from reading your posts over the years that your introduction to boating came long before Al Gore invented the internet. You learned by asking questions of people you personally knew and trusted, and hunted up people to talk to when you didn't already know someone with the needed knowledge or experience.

And from your posts, I get the impression that you did just fine and have had great boating experiences with no necessity to resort to a computer keyboard to find something out.

You talked to someone when you had a question, maybe more than one person, and having met them you were able to judge their character, integrity, and credibility and then make your own decision on what to do based on what you learned and what you felt was the best course of action.

I doubt that you needed to get the consensus of half the country to decide when you should run your generator if you had one. I doubt you needed the Linus-blanket, thumb-sucking reassurance of a faceless internet crowd when you decided what anchors to use on your boats, or what oil to use in your engines.

I suspect you are one of those people to whom an internet forum is a fun past-time but is certainly not necessary for you and your family to get the maximum best experience from boating. I suspect that if ISIS took out the US's entire internet system tomorrow (or if Al Gore decided to turn it off in pure petulance), it would not make a dent in your ability to operate your boat and make decisions about your boating.

Am I right?

Marin said:

Eric-- One final comment and then I think I'm done. If you put the weight close to the anchor you are in effect making the anchor heavier, which in itself is not a bad thing of course.

But if there is a lot of pressure on the rode, the angle of pull on the weight will be quite high which will reduce the effectiveness of the weight and may even lift it thus increasing the angle of pull on the anchor itself because the weight is so close. So you're back to where you started.

If the weight is farther out from the anchor the pressure will still lift it up but because there is some distance now between the weight and the anchor, the angle of pull on the anchor will be somewhat less. Which is all that matters.

As I said, all-chain elminates the need to screw around with the "where to put the weight" question which is why we chose to use it.

Click to expand...

Have to agree Eric, as when all is said and done, for the catenary to be removed completely by the role rode being pulled straight, thus putting the maximum force on the anchor, which is what we want to avoid, this requires the weight of the whole rode to be pulled taught and lifted. That will/must occur earlier with mixed rode because the synthetic component is much lighter than chain, so the combined rode weight, which is all that's relevant here, is a lot lighter than it would be with the same length of all chain. That is simple unalterable physics.

Marin said:

I doubt that you needed to get the consensus of half the country to decide when you should run your generator if you had one. I doubt you needed the Linus-blanket, thumb-sucking reassurance of a faceless internet crowd when you decided what anchors to use on your boats, or what oil to use in your engines.

Click to expand...

Marin,

If you don't like the questions asked, you don't need to answer. It strikes me as a rather belligerent and condescending attitude to cast aspersions upon those with less experience who are either asking a legitimate question or interested in starting a discussion on a topic.

Live and let live. If you don't like it, don't post. If you have something constructive to contribute, go for it...the more succinct, the better.

But you're very wrong to think you're the only one who can be right and must always have the last word while the others here are wrong. Give the judgmental BS a break already!!