All chain rode versus rope

AKDoug said:

The 600' spool of 5/8" nylon I bought was also only $900, but those prices are right out of West Marine for reference only The price difference between 5/16 and 3/8 was about $.50 a feet, so it's still just about double even after shopping for a deal. Of course prices depending on the size, type (chain grade and line, brait or braid)...

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That sounds about right Doug.

Clearly the weight and price favor a combo rode.

Also from this threads posts there is a significant misunderstanding and lack of hands on time for folks actually using a capstan to haul any significant length or weight of line rode using a capstan.

One thing I miss from my cruiser days is a windlass that handles both line and chain. They were easy to buy for our old boat.

Short scope anchoring might be most successful with 3/4 chain .

With my 24ft wide boat in PR , the mooring had been set for a USN Captain.

In about 6 ft of water a 3-5000lb anchor was dropped ,the chin links were made of about 2 inch diameter steel with cross links.

A 24 inch mooring ball had about 4 inches of freeboard ---in 6 ft of water!

Needless to say even after a hurricane for the Capt , and a year of my use , the chain was never straightened on the sea floor.

The illusion is that every anchoring situation has the same answer, the facts are that sometimes you can hang on the weight of your hook on 1.5:1 scope and never budge. I am a believer that cantenary doesn't come into play unless there is wind or current, then scope becomes critical. All that chain lying on the bottom doesn't make the hook work better unless there is a load on it, it just replaces the stretch that a nylon rode would have with cantenary weight, and softens the ride on the hook. Nylon at higher scopes has a tendency to let your boat "sail" around the anchorage in the wind, chain gets rid of a lot of that with cantenary. I doubt there is any load on the hook at all in most circumstances in most good anchorages and that the chain never moves on the bottom from where you dropped it when anchoring.

AKDoug said:

The illusion is that every anchoring situation has the same answer, the facts are that sometimes you can hang on the weight of your hook on 1.5:1 scope and never budge. I am a believer that cantenary doesn't come into play unless there is wind or current, then scope becomes critical. All that chain lying on the bottom doesn't make the hook work better unless there is a load on it, it just replaces the stretch that a nylon rode would have with cantenary weight, and softens the ride on the hook. Nylon at higher scopes has a tendency to let your boat "sail" around the anchorage in the wind, chain gets rid of a lot of that with cantenary. I doubt there is any load on the hook at all in most circumstances in most good anchorages and that the chain never moves on the bottom from where you dropped it when anchoring.

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Pretty much nothing comes into play regarding anchoring... "... unless there is wind or current". That's all that anchoring is to meant ward against.

Doug that's interesting. Sailing a lot on long nylon rodes. In my first gale w long nylon rode (7-1 scope at least) we did sail around a lot. Severely one may say. The next gale (at 4-1) the sailing wasn't objectionable. I need a bridal.

I thought anchoring had a lot to do with not waking up on shore

manyboats said:

Doug that's interesting. Sailing a lot on long nylon rodes. In my first gale w long nylon rode (7-1 scope at least) we did sail around a lot. Severely one may say. The next gale (at 4-1) the sailing wasn't objectionable. I need a bridal.

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The bridal won't change sailing at anchor unless you sheet it to one side asymmetrically. Then you just increase the wind or current load on the boat. You need the bridal as a shock absorber so you don't pull your chain stopper out of the deck or worse yet your windlass if you don't have a chain stopper. For a double bridle go 1/2 the diameter of a single.


Via iPhone.

Eric-. I can't believe you don't know what tailing a line off a windlass drum means. Every sailboater on the planet knows how to do that, and it's what l have to do if I use our trip line, and it's what I'd have to do if we used a combination rode. Look it up.

Chain is heavy. That means that when you pick it up it wants to go back down. It's that pesky gravity thing again.

In the case of all-chain rode, when you lift it up and it wants to go back down and does, that lowers the angle of pull on the anchor. Which means there is less force trying to lever the anchor out of the bottom. Which means the anchor is more likely to stay put. Which means our boat is more likely to stay put. Which as I see it is a Good Thing.

When the chain is lifted off the bottom it wants to go back down. Since chain is flexible being made up of separate links, it sags. The sag is the catenary. And when it sags it lowers the angle of pull on the anchor.

Which is the whole point.

Sure, the catenary can be pulled out of a chain rode. But it's going to take a hell of a lot more pull to do it than to pull the catenary out of a rope rode. Which means the angle of pull on an anchor with all-chain rode is going to stay lower longer than the pull on a rope rode even if the rope rode has a bit of chain next to the anchor.

This is the ONLY reason we use an all-chain rode on our boat. Sure, chain runs nicely though a windlass and we can let it out and pull it in with a pushbutton. But I know how to tail a windlass so using a combination rode would be no biggie to us.

We use chain because it doesn't like to be picked up. So our anchor is encouraged to stay where it is by the chain wanting to stay down. It's as simple as that.

Cafesport,
Read a lot more on the Dashew ling "Distant Shores" and further on I see it actually is a commercial for the Rocna anchor. Inaccuracies abound. He dosn't seem to know that boats have a lot less thrust in reverse re his jerking on the anchor w the boat. Under a picture he says "Rocna anchor set perfectly as usual ... it is well buried and sitting right way up". His sentence structure is a bit odd too. Considering that anchor in the pic "buried" is rediculous. Lots of the shank is above the sand and lots of the roll bar is too. It's too bad as nothing much else has turned up for this thread.

Looks like we're stuck w intuitive and subjective opinions about catenary. I'm sure some cat is always there but in higher winds most may be gone. So that makes the cat not very important w the possible exception of setting and one can quickly determine that by anchoring where one traditionally anchors w only nylon line and see if the anchor sets as usual.

As to gales and such I only know how my XYZ works (and that's well) as I have not anchored w any other brand anchor in a gale.

Re Walt's wondering why people anchor w all chain I think it's because it's the only traditional rode for our type boats. So all chain seems the most practical rode. Better performance IOM can be had w the combo but then there's the splice .... and that's for another thread I'd say.

For me a combo rode w about 50' of 3/8ths chain w 250' of 5/8ths Brait would be nice but I'm not sore they make a gypsie that does 5/8ths line and 3/8" chain. Would cost me over $1500 and since my present system may not be ideal I'll probably stick w it.

There was some out of the box thinking and posting so re the thread all was not lost .. IMO.

Well Marin I didn't know YOU were a sailor. I'm not. Little sailboats are fun but why sail anything bigger when we have wonderful engines. I had a 16' sailboat (sloop) and decided to make a cutter of it and put on a fixed keel. So I attached a boom and moved the jib out. Then put another sail tween the mast and jib (foresail) and had to figure out where to locate the keel. Got dumb lucky and had a perfectly balanced helm (or tiller in this case).

I agree w your post Marin. It's that we don't know just how beneficial the cat (whatever's left in a wind) is. Of course if I had a 300lb 20' chain attached to my anchor I would have tons of cat. And could downsize my anchor ..... but nowhere near equivalent to the heavy chain. But if I had a 300lb anchor instead of the chain I'd be much more secure in my anchoring without the chain of course. But you've heard this before and you should prolly ask me when I'm going to get a 55lb anchor. Hmmm

Thanks for the tailing off a whatever.....

This canterary effect which Mrian BTW dooes a GREAT job of explaining above in laymans terms seems to be open to debate on a theoretical basis.

On a practical basis I've seen it in action and so has probably everyone else here.

So you pull into an anchorage, set your anchor and hang out.

Look at your combo rode. It's stretched tight out inn front of your boat in all but dead calm conditions

Now look over at the guy with an all chain rode.

Ever wonder why in those same conditions why his chain goes apparently straight down?

Thats Canterary effect in action.

His chain will not go tight until there is enough force on his boat to lift all that chain off of the bottom. That could easily amount to several hundred pounds.

I do not need to be able to mathmatically comprehend canterary effect as it applies to anchoring. What I have to do is open my eyes, look at other boats with various types of rodes in an anchorge and its effect becomes apparent.

manyboats said:

It's that we don't know just how beneficial the cat (whatever's left in a wind) is.

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I'll tell you exactly how beneficial it is. It's a lot more beneficial than not having it at all.

I totally agree chain is awesome! Cost, weight, depth of anchorages, size of my boat, and the requirements of the windlass to pull it take me out of an all chain rode. Do I think chain is the best? Of course! If you have a large enough boat (and wallet) to carry enough to reach your deepest usual anchorage and achieve scope.

Some of my best anchorages are 100-150' deep and in the middle of the bay, that's where the flat bottom with good holding is. Of course you aren't going to be anchoring there when there is a storm blowing up

OK - SO... Here's the real deal, as I see it anyway... regarding having catenary or not!


The main premise trying to be attained here via discussion (irrespective of chain weight, rust, frayed rope, mildew - etc) is holding power of anchor while anchored (irrespective of anchor type or bottom or weather conditions or initial setting technique).


In other words - Having Little To No Anchor Drag!


Therefore I believe we should be focusing on how many using just chain and how many using combo rope/chain experience anchor drag (I know of none but tiny fisher dinks that use only rope-to-anchor; so that is a non entity in my book - but, of course if rope is all you use then join in with your experiences!).


I always use rope to chain to anchor combo and in decades have very seldom experienced any drag. Less than I can count on one hand; with quick self-resets all but twice I can recall. That said I'm firm believer in plenty of scope... which does play into the holding-power of anchoring no matter what material for rode or what type anchor is used.


Looking forward to learn other boaters' experiences regarding anchor drag and type rode used on those occasions.

Marin said:

I'll tell you exactly how beneficial it is. It's a lot more beneficial than not having it at all.

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Marin that's like having a 300hp sedan to go to the golf course and Safeway.
"it's a lot more beneficial than having none".

I've never had more than 15' of chain and I've never dragged an anchor. That includes when I was in my 20s. Then I used a Danforth and never set the anchor. With a little current or wind (breeze) it must have set itself. Never wound up on the beach as AK Doug likes to say.

I've said for years that the notion that catenary will disappear when you need it most is wrong .. or not quite right. But I did think maybe not enough remained to do much good. Tie a 5/8ths line to a piling .. run out 100' and pull on it. I'll bet you won't pull out the catenary. And that's just line .. not chain. So Dashew or whomever said that in a storm (I'm think'in 40 to 50 mph winds) all the catenary is pulled out ... just isn't true. Perhaps Smith and Dashew were just trying to sell anchors. But judging from Doug, Kevin and many (several ?) others there probably is enough catenary left to significantly help the anchor hold the boat. I've seen those boats w chain hanging straight down (in no wind to speak of though) and my line rode always hangs out 45 degrees or so. Check mate ... you got me there. Makes me wonder why I haven't dragged though. I know .... You're all think'in I will if I don't get more chain. Not say'in I won't either. But getting bigger anchors is more likely .. and probably more likely to hold my boat and keep me from dragging.

Art chain (weight) is good if it's in the right place on the rode and we talked about that in the past. Was about 20 % up the rode from the anchor as I remember. All chain has an incredible amount of weight wasted on the upper end. Chain is good but only on the correct end.

manyboats said:

Art chain (weight) is good if it's in the right place on the rode and we talked about that in the past. Was about 20 % up the rode from the anchor as I remember. All chain has an incredible amount of weight wasted on the upper end. Chain is good but only on the correct end.

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Eric - I always keep my 12' + of chain attached to anchor at end of rope.

Attention all newbies!!!

Please do not allow people discussing theoretical situations or using one tiny bit of fact to complicate the entire act of anchoring.

Many ideas here may or may not work for you or at all.

Obviously different boats and anchoring in Alaska versus the Indian River in Florida are completely different.

One size never fits all and some assumptions repeatedly expressed here only have a tiny bit of use to them....

Walk up and down any dock full of full time cruisers and you will see a lot of consistency that is not expressed here. Not that they are the most knowledgeable, nor do they have the latest and greatest equipment, but they are out there slogging it out with the rest of us....without dragging anymore than most of us.

Their one and greatest advantage is they are either good with their equipment or extremely lucky and many fortunately have the advantage of separating the hype found in anchoring threads versus reality.

See what works locally, see if that is good for you and then practice and expand your equipment and practice when venturing further.

I think the notion that one won't drag if they use all chain and they will drag if they use a combination rode is total bollocks.

Sailboats in the size range of our power cruisers tend to use a combination rode if for no other reason than they are much more tender when it comes to weight in the bow. And sailboats don't seem to be dragging around all over the place, at least in my observation.

I think whether or not a boat drags is so dependent on so many variables that coming up with a one-size-fits-all rule is virtually impossible as much as everyone tries to do it.

Chain offers the advantages chain offers. Combination rodes offer the advanatages combinations rodes offer. Which one is most advantageous for YOUR boat is determined by which on which one is most advantageous for your boat.

While we prefer all-chain rode for the reasonss I have already written (ad nauseum it seems), this is NOT TO IMPLY that we believe that combination rodes don't work or are inferior in some basic, generic way.

The most experienced and knowledgable recreational boater I know in this region has a 40' sloop with a combination rode. And he almost always anchors even if a dock is available. And while I'm sure he's dragged on occasion, he's been anchoring successfully up and down this coast for dedades with his CQR and his combination rode.

And we have watched Joe Boaters--- sometimes multiple Joe Boaters at the same time---- with their big power cruisers and all-chain rodes drag all over the place under conditions where the sailboats in the anchorage stayed put very nicely.

We have a heavy, high-windage boat so we want a rode that does everything it can to keep the angle of pull on the anchor low. To us, that defines an all-chain rode for our boat.

The question of how much catenary (sag) is required is moot. Because every situation other than dead calm will create a different amount of catenary. What's important to us is that there IS some. We don't care if there is only six feet of sag over the 180' length of chain that'w been pulled off the bottom. That's several feet more than there would have been if we had a combination rode, so the angle of pull on the anchor shank will be that much less.

Not a lot less, but who knows how many inches or feet of "less" will make the difference between the anchor staying put and it starting to be levered up out of the bottom?

That's OUR reasoning applied to OUR boat in the conditions WE anchor in. What is best for Art, Eric, Don, Mark--- pick your name--- will depend on the variables THEY have to deal with.

Talking of catenary, anyone used an "Anchor Buddy"?

Considering how the location is critical to the anchoring formula, I would think in many of the places in the PNW the important thing is knowing where and how to tie your stern to shore. If you can't get that right all the rest the anchor choice all chain rode or mixed will mean nothing. In other localities there may be similar aspects to fixing your boat in one place. Considering how many boats are out there and how many inexperienced and new skippers there are dragging to the point of serious grounding and damage is not all that common. so my conclusion is that many anchors with what ever attached to them seems to do the job in protected anchorages and fair weather. Storms and open anchorages well that opens Pandora's box and opinions abound.

Marin said:

I think the notion that one won't drag if they use all chain and they will drag if they use a combination rode is total bollocks.

Sailboats in the size range of our power cruisers tend to use a combination rode if for no other reason than they are much more tender when it comes to weight in the bow. And sailboats don't seem to be dragging around all over the place, at least in my observation.

I think whether or not a boat drags is so dependent on so many variables that coming up with a one-size-fits-all rule is virtually impossible as much as everyone tries to do it.

Chain offers the advantages chain offers. Combination rodes offer the advanatages combinations rodes offer. Which one is most advantageous for YOUR boat is determined by which on which one is most advantageous for your boat.

While we prefer all-chain rode for the reasonss I have already written (ad nauseum it seems), this is NOT TO IMPLY that we believe that combination rodes don't work or are inferior in some basic, generic way.

The most experienced and knowledgable recreational boater I know in this region has a 40' sloop with a combination rode. And he almost always anchors even if a dock is available. And while I'm sure he's dragged on occasion, he's been anchoring successfully up and down this coast for dedades with his CQR and his combination rode.

And we have watched Joe Boaters--- sometimes multiple Joe Boaters at the same time---- with their big power cruisers and all-chain rodes drag all over the place under conditions where the sailboats in the anchorage stayed put very nicely.

We have a heavy, high-windage boat so we want a rode that does everything it can to keep the angle of pull on the anchor low. To us, that defines an all-chain rode for our boat.

The question of how much catenary (sag) is required is moot. Because every situation other than dead calm will create a different amount of catenary. What's important to us is that there IS some. We don't care if there is only six feet of sag over the 180' length of chain that'w been pulled off the bottom. That's several feet more than there would have been if we had a combination rode, so the angle of pull on the anchor shank will be that much less.

Not a lot less, but who knows how many inches or feet of "less" will make the difference between the anchor staying put and it starting to be levered up out of the bottom?

That's OUR reasoning applied to OUR boat in the conditions WE anchor in. What is best for Art, Eric, Don, Mark--- pick your name--- will depend on the variables THEY have to deal with.

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Gee Marin, you do like to fully explain things and to write (I'm a bit afflicted that way myself )!

Ya could just say... "Each to Their Freaking Own!" :lol:

BruceK said:

Talking of catenary, anyone used an "Anchor Buddy"?

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Yes, I regularly use an Anchor Buddy together with all chain rode. I think it is a great device and I have never dragged the anchor when using it.

Art said:

Gee Marin, you do like to fully explain things and to write (I'm a bit afflicted that way myself )!

Ya could just say... "Each to Their Freaking Own!" :lol:

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You're correct. But over a few decades of working in television, film, and now HD 4K video, first in commercial televisiion and now in the aerospace industry, I have long since learned that if you explain something thoroughly and well the first time, that's it. You don't then endlessly answer questions from people who don't get it or who are confused.

The one exception I've found is this forum, where since 2007 the same topics have been covered with the same quesitons and the same answers and opinions by largely the same people. I'm as guilty as anyone else but I find it an intresting challenge to see if I can give the same answer I always give but in a different form or style of writing. Helps kill the time during computer renders.

Of course, the only real audience for the answers on this forum are the new folks who genuinely are trying to learn something they need to know. The rest of us are just expressing the same opinons and experiences we've heard from each other a hundred times.

So the new folks are ones I write for. Not the longtimers who have heard it all before and are thoroughly rooted in their own opinions, beliefs, and biases.

I was given the task last year of writing and producing a video that is designed to help commercial airline pilots avoid what's called a runway excursion--- running a plane off the end or side of a runway during landing. It has become one of the leading causes of aircraft accidents and fatalities worldwide over the last four or five years. The audience for this video is every airline pilot on the planet.

It's not a training video--- airline pilots all know how to fly. It's an awareness and motivational video. A marketing video for not crashing your airplane, if you will.

There are a lot of factors to the story, some of them are fairly complex, and they had to be explained and illustrated clearly and effectively to audiences whose first language is not always English. And given the very cynical and jaded nature of the audience, the video had to be totally credible to them in its style and delivery.

The end result is a seventeen minute video which after the first time it was previewed at an aviation safety conference in Europe, the Boeing presenters were immediately swarmed by airline representatives asking to get a copies to use with their flight departments. Not only that, but Airbus came up and asked for a copy and they are now using it with their airline customers.

I don't believe in giving a partial answer to a question because that doesn't help anyone. If anything, it generates confusion and more questions. So you end up getting the endless threads about the same topics on this forum.

So, sorry, but if I'm going to try to explain something, I'm going to try to explain it as best I possibly can.

"Each to Their Freaking Own!" is a totally valid answer. But you know damn well some newbie is going to read that and ask, "But what do you mean by that?" And this thread will get started all over again.

BruceK said:

Talking of catenary, anyone used an "Anchor Buddy"?

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The fisherman in SE Alaska call it's equivalent an "Alaskan sleeping pill".

Larry I've not heard that one or been aware of fishermen using a Kellet. I assume you mean commercial fishermen.

I made a 12lb Kellet for Willy but have not used it. 12 lbs is not far from the weight of my anchors so it may be an appropriate weight. Should be easy to slide down the Brait line but the way I designed it .. it would'nt go past the start of chain. But my chain is usually shorter than 15' so it would be in a nearly perfect place. Would probably be a problem if it did get down the chain because retraction would need be with the rode. Would require plucking it off the rode as it came up to the bow roller.

But I suspect getting an anchor 12lbs heavier would yeild better results.

Usually a Kellet is slid down over the chain via a bronze "rider" that's clamped on but free to slide over chain and line. They are availible on-line .. at least I've seen them in the past.

If placed well and heavy enough they definitely should increase catenary.

Marin said:

You're correct. But over a few decades of working in television, film, and now HD 4K video, first in commercial televisiion and now in the aerospace industry, I have long since learned that if you explain something thoroughly and well the first time, that's it. You don't then endlessly answer questions from people who don't get it or who are confused.

The one exception I've found is this forum, where since 2007 the same topics have been covered with the same quesitons and the same answers and opinions by largely the same people. I'm as guilty as anyone else but I find it an intresting challenge to see if I can give the same answer I always give but in a different form or style of writing. Helps kill the time during computer renders.

Of course, the only real audience for the answers on this forum are the new folks who genuinely are trying to learn something they need to know. The rest of us are just expressing the same opinons and experiences we've heard from each other a hundred times.

So the new folks are ones I write for. Not the longtimers who have heard it all before and are thoroughly rooted in their own opinions, beliefs, and biases.

I was given the task last year of writing and producing a video that is designed to help commercial airline pilots avoid what's called a runway excursion--- running a plane off the end or side of a runway during landing. It has become one of the leading causes of aircraft accidents and fatalities worldwide over the last four or five years. The audience for this video is every airline pilot on the planet.

It's not a training video--- airline pilots all know how to fly. It's an awareness and motivational video. A marketing video for not crashing your airplane, if you will.

There are a lot of factors to the story, some of them are fairly complex, and they had to be explained and illustrated clearly and effectively to audiences whose first language is not always English. And given the very cynical and jaded nature of the audience, the video had to be totally credible to them in its style and delivery.

The end result is a seventeen minute video which after the first time it was previewed at an aviation safety conference in Europe, the Boeing presenters were immediately swarmed by airline representatives asking to get a copies to use with their flight departments. Not only that, but Airbus came up and asked for a copy and they are now using it with their airline customers.

I don't believe in giving a partial answer to a question because that doesn't help anyone. If anything, it generates confusion and more questions. So you end up getting the endless threads about the same topics on this forum.

So, sorry, but if I'm going to try to explain something, I'm going to try to explain it as best I possibly can.

"Each to Their Freaking Own!" is a totally valid answer. But you know damn well some newbie is going to read that and ask, "But what do you mean by that?" And this thread will get started all over again.

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They tried the same thing with the Bible. We all know how that effort turned out! :lol:

"... if you explain something thoroughly and well the first time, that's it."

"... if I'm going to try to explain something, I'm going to try to explain it as best I possibly can."

Just kidding, Marin. It's your biz to explain things. Carry on fellow boater!

Art said:

They tried the same thing with the Bible. We all know how that effort turned out! :lol:

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It was probably very understandable to the people who read it when it first came out. But the progressive dumbing down of humanity's language skills has led to people today scratching their heads and saying, "What the hell did Jesus (or Moses or....) mean by that?" And then everyone starts speculating like they do about anchors and motor oil and then the problems start.

cafesport said:

The answer is... It depends. More specifically on the scope ratio, the "wet" weight of the chain, the current and the the wind loading on the boat.

If the catenary disappears you need to let out more chain.

The producers of distant shores actually just filmed part two of their anchoring episodes last week where they experiment with catenary.

Sailing Blog - Technical Hints and Tips - Sailing Videos

The short version is that the catenary leverage factor is half your scope ratio. Although scope ratios greater than 7:1 have diminishing returns with respect to the rodes's angle the catenary forces are increased dramatically.



Via iPad using Trawler Forum

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thanks Ed