All chain rode versus rope
- Thread starter Bay Pelican
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Have you ever seen a nylon rode underwater in 20 knot winds.
No, you're correct and it can take considerably less than 20 knots to pull much or most of the catenary out of an all-chain rode. Hence our very long V-bridle snubber.
One of the reasons Id like to install a proper wind speed/direction sensor at the lower helm is that for the typical recreational, part-time boater, including us, wind is almost always blowing slower than we think it is.
We'll be on the boat in its slip on a windy, blustery day and are convinced the wind is blowing 20 or even 30 knots with gusts even higher based on the sound and feel. So we'll get our handheld wind speed instrument and climb up on the flying bridge steps and hold it into the full force of the gale and find that the wind is screaming by at by at...... 12 knots. With an occasional bump up to 15.
Very disappointng.
By pleasure boaters: Wind speed and wave height and water-current speed are three items too often over-blown compared to reality.
By professional fishermen: Those three items are usually guessed at pretty close to reality.
psneeld
Guru
I just posted a thread where I swung on an all 5/16 chain rode, 75 feet out, 30 feet 1/2 inch nylon single snubber, rolling hitch attached.
I was in about 8 feet of water in a very protected cove with around 48 hrs of 15 to 20 knots gusting 25 say.
I hardly knew I was at anchor as the snubber rarely became tight enough to lift the chain off the bottom.
Had I anchored outside the cove at the end of 20 miles of fetch in the Indian River...I would have guessed that there were 1 to 2 footers rolling through and I bet the snubber would have come tight enough in the gusts and occasionally well timed waves to jerk the bow around.
Like most anchoring threads..unless very specific about tackle, boat, winds AND waves to a much greater degree....most comments can't be applied to much. Eliminate any one variable and it changes the equation enough that it may hardly ever apply to anything but your boat in similar conditions.
Yes anchor chain can become enough to deform links so I am assuming catenary is moot at that point...at least in the tugs which aren't always there.
And again...hopefully some will finally catch on....that most all chain guys DO use enough nylon to absorb shock. So unless you re talking hurricane/typhoon, all chain or combo...what the heck? Same components just different quantities and order of battle.
Sure every boat may or may not be able to or want to carry all chain...but claiming one is superior, at all times for all reasons for all boats and skippers is like every other circular discussion in boating.
I was in about 8 feet of water in a very protected cove with around 48 hrs of 15 to 20 knots gusting 25 say.
I hardly knew I was at anchor as the snubber rarely became tight enough to lift the chain off the bottom.
Had I anchored outside the cove at the end of 20 miles of fetch in the Indian River...I would have guessed that there were 1 to 2 footers rolling through and I bet the snubber would have come tight enough in the gusts and occasionally well timed waves to jerk the bow around.
Like most anchoring threads..unless very specific about tackle, boat, winds AND waves to a much greater degree....most comments can't be applied to much. Eliminate any one variable and it changes the equation enough that it may hardly ever apply to anything but your boat in similar conditions.
Yes anchor chain can become enough to deform links so I am assuming catenary is moot at that point...at least in the tugs which aren't always there.
And again...hopefully some will finally catch on....that most all chain guys DO use enough nylon to absorb shock. So unless you re talking hurricane/typhoon, all chain or combo...what the heck? Same components just different quantities and order of battle.
Sure every boat may or may not be able to or want to carry all chain...but claiming one is superior, at all times for all reasons for all boats and skippers is like every other circular discussion in boating.
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rochepoint
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markpierce
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I don't put much stock in catenary. When anchoring here with the typically strong currents, my chain rode is stretched, and the claw still holds.
Nomad Willy
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Is there enough catenary to do enough good when it's needed or not? Enough good to warrant all that weight and expense?
psneeld
Guru
On the road with lousy wifi...anyone want to post the cost diff between chain and decent material rode?Its already been shown the weight between wet nylon and comparable chain in the locker isn't all that great, I'll bet neither is the price.
My dad liked to term it "Cat N' Canary"!
When I was quite young… In a whimsical manner of explanation for boat anchoring's catenary effect... He felt the Cat represented the anchor's claws and the Canary is the chain attached to anchor at end of rope. He laughingly explained the "Canary" (the chain weighing down the anchor's shank) forced the "Cat's” claws to stealth fully dig into bottom and hide so it could catch the canary when the time was right! We always used a Danforth; so, that made for an easy storyline simile.
Every time I pulled the rope, lead-chain, and anchor aboard… he’d holler from the bridge – guess the canary outsmarted the cat again!
Tain't nutten wrong wit good ol’ young-of-year boaten memories!
markpierce
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Regardless, if having a combination rope and chain rode for one's primary anchor, the chain should be at least of the length of the boat. This would minimize chafe on the rope rode and contribute towards the anchor's digging.
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My dad liked to term it "Cat N' Canary"!
When I was quite young… In a whimsical manner of explanation for boat anchoring's catenary effect... He felt the Cat represented the anchor's claws and the Canary is the chain attached to anchor at end of rope. He laughingly explained the "Canary" (the chain weighing down the anchor's shank) forced the "Cat's” claws to stealth fully dig into bottom and hide so it could catch the canary when the time was right! We always used a Danforth; so, that made for an easy storyline simile.
Every time I pulled the rope, lead-chain, and anchor aboard… he’d holler from the bridge – guess the canary outsmarted the cat again!
Tain't nutten wrong wit good ol’ young-of-year boaten memories!
OK, now we know where you got it, Art!
AKDoug
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3.8" BBB is $5,91 a foot at 1.6 lbs, and 5/8" nylon is $2.00 a foot at .2 lbs dry. I doubt it would double the weight of the nylon for it to be wet if pulled under tension. I would estimate a savings of about two thirds in both weight and cost over chain. A significant number.
ksanders
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I just bought 550' of 5/15 HT on defender for $1460 Thats $2.65 per foot.
1.17 lb per foot.
I do not think even wet nylon weighs that but I have no data to support that thought
1.17 lb per foot.
I do not think even wet nylon weighs that but I have no data to support that thought
AKDoug
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The 600' spool of 5/8" nylon I bought was also only $900, but those prices are right out of West Marine for reference only The price difference between 5/16 and 3/8 was about $.50 a feet, so it's still just about double even after shopping for a deal. Of course prices depending on the size, type (chain grade and line, brait or braid)...
The price difference between 5/16 and 3/8 was about $.50 a feet, so it's still just about double even after shopping for a deal. Of course prices depending on the size, type (chain grade and line, brait or braid)...
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Here's what a 5 year old well used line to chain splice looks like.
The frays have my attention, so I'll be learning how to resplice this in the coming weeks.
The frays have my attention, so I'll be learning how to resplice this in the coming weeks.
Nomad Willy
Guru
Kevin I think that's about two times as much than Brait. Perhaps three times as much as three strand.
But cost has little to do w it I suspect. You should get on fine if the weight's OK fwd. With that nice anchor at great depths a trip line won't be much of an option. On that score you may have been better off w the SARCA and the trip slot. I'm sure you'll be happy w your gear.
Tom on my last boat where we put the rode in an anchor locker the nylon line did get a little stinky on our way back to Everett WA. On Willy it's kept in a ventilated box on deck.
There are the advantages of chain and advantages for line but what I'd like to establish is .. does the weight of chain insure enough catenary in a blow to significantly increase the performance of the anchor? It may and it may not. Catenary seems to be the main reason trawler men use chain and I'd like to know if it's justified. I've called the question twice now and recieved no justification. Is the catenary there when we need it or not?
But cost has little to do w it I suspect. You should get on fine if the weight's OK fwd. With that nice anchor at great depths a trip line won't be much of an option. On that score you may have been better off w the SARCA and the trip slot. I'm sure you'll be happy w your gear.
Tom on my last boat where we put the rode in an anchor locker the nylon line did get a little stinky on our way back to Everett WA. On Willy it's kept in a ventilated box on deck.
There are the advantages of chain and advantages for line but what I'd like to establish is .. does the weight of chain insure enough catenary in a blow to significantly increase the performance of the anchor? It may and it may not. Catenary seems to be the main reason trawler men use chain and I'd like to know if it's justified. I've called the question twice now and recieved no justification. Is the catenary there when we need it or not?
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Nomad Willy
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Al,
It looks like that splice dosn't go through the gypsie. Why don't you use a thimble or a larger shackle?
It looks like that splice dosn't go through the gypsie. Why don't you use a thimble or a larger shackle?
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Eric, the anchor is 120 ft down the chain. I had to stop the retrieve to get the picture of the splice. It runs through the gypsy just fine if I don't stop it.
Well, by the definition of catenary, it's there when you need it. The whole point is to keep the angle of pull on the anchor as low as possible. When the wind kicks up, what do the combination rode folks do to lower the angle of pull? Send a kellet down the rode.
All-chain rode has the kellet built in. It takes more pull to lift chain up than it does nylon rode.
That's the whole story right there. That and chain rode runs real nice through a wildcat so you can have the convenience of powering the anchor and rode out and in with a button and you don't have to tail a rope rode off a line gypsy.
It's not a question of catenary being there when you need it. It's a matter of the catenary being there, period. When you need it is when it's there. When you don't need it there isn't any. The chain drops straight down to the bottom and then goes across the bottom to the anchor.
FF
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How do you guys with 300 to 500 feet of wet rope in the boat keep the mildew rope smells at bay?
When we coastal cruise the nylon is simply laid figure 8 on deck as it comes in.
This gets it dry and there is no stink below.
It is easy to drop with no coming up from below hassles as rope or chain can have.
We seldom take green water on the fore deck , so mostly its not even lashed down.
THe bow roller stows the anchor , a chain stopper holds it on board , the hyd capstan brings it on board , almost effort free.
"It's not a question of catenary being there when you need it. It's a matter of the catenary being there, period"
Sadly I must disagree , in a blow the chain can become bar tight ,it just takes a bit of wind or wind and a sea to get to ZERO stretch, and huge shock loads.
When we coastal cruise the nylon is simply laid figure 8 on deck as it comes in.
This gets it dry and there is no stink below.
It is easy to drop with no coming up from below hassles as rope or chain can have.
We seldom take green water on the fore deck , so mostly its not even lashed down.
THe bow roller stows the anchor , a chain stopper holds it on board , the hyd capstan brings it on board , almost effort free.
"It's not a question of catenary being there when you need it. It's a matter of the catenary being there, period"
Sadly I must disagree , in a blow the chain can become bar tight ,it just takes a bit of wind or wind and a sea to get to ZERO stretch, and huge shock loads.
ranger58sb
Guru
Ah. Fair enough, if that was their original point, I get that. I could also easily add "or with only very little chain after the anchor" or some such wording, too.
FWIW, we use a combination rope/chain rode. Enough chain, but on purpose minimized because of the time/effort it takes to clean the mud out as we bring it all back aboard.
On a separate tangent, I've begun to think about a short length of cable between the chain and the anchor. Doubt it would solve much, though. Cable likely wouldn't work on our gypsy, so it's have to be only a couple feet long... and the remaining chain would still pick up boatloads of mud, as it does now, from just laying there on the substrate.
-Chris
The answer is... It depends. More specifically on the scope ratio, the "wet" weight of the chain, the current and the the wind loading on the boat.
If the catenary disappears you need to let out more chain.
The producers of distant shores actually just filmed part two of their anchoring episodes last week where they experiment with catenary.
http://www.distantshores.ca/boatblog_files/category-anchoring.php
The short version is that the catenary leverage factor is half your scope ratio. Although scope ratios greater than 7:1 have diminishing returns with respect to the rodes's angle the catenary forces are increased dramatically.
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Codger2
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Without actually taking a poll with trawlermen, we can't possibly know why they prefer chain. I suspect, however, that it has nothing to do with catenary but does have a lot to do with less abrasion and holding power of the anchor. (weight)
Fortress Anchor's available greater shank to fluke angle would increase fluke setting ability in accordance to any catenary offered by a chosen type of rode product or its provided scope offered. After all... increased catenary provided to rode attached to anchor is specifically for making better angle for anchor's flukes or plow to angularly dig into the bottom.
Could be said for anchoring: Angle of the dangle is directly proportional to hypotenuse of the square! - LOL
Happy Anchor-Setting Daze! - Art
dwhatty
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I thought the correct formula was something like:
The angle of the dangle is inversely proportional to the heat of the
meat times the square of the hair divided by the mass of
the ass.
I thought the correct formula was something like:
The angle of the dangle is inversely proportional to the heat of the
meat times the square of the hair divided by the mass of
the ass.
And of course... roundness of the pound-ness on gals upper torso!
Nomad Willy
Guru
Great responses. Looks like we're getting a grip on something useful.
The Distant Shores link has some very useful stuff in it but it often sounds like a commercial for Rocna anchors. It may not be 100% objective but then our anchor tests aren't either. I would think if one is to test short scope anchoring using an anchor that has been tested by others to be lacking in short scope performance seems odd. Perhaps Dashew dosn't speak English well as his sentence structure is strange. But hey .. nobody else (that I know of) is doing (testing) as he does so I'm very interested in his "Distant Shores" copy.
He says anchoring at SS (short scope) it's beneficial to use chain. To me SS would have very very little catenary and very long scope would have lots of catenary. So if chain is beneficial re cat it's (by far) most beneficial at SS. At long scope cat is not even needed .. it would seem.
Al stupid of me to have assumed otherwise.
Marin, almost nobody in the world uses Kellets. I made one and have never used it. ?? "All-chain rode has the kellet built in" Indeed .. that's what wer'e talking about. Does it or does it not? "don't have to tail a rope rode off a line gypsy." What on earth does that mean?
FF, There's a fisherman in Alaska (ironically w a Navy pers boat) than does the figure eight routine.
Cafe thank you so much for bringing something that looks like it could be genuine testing on the cat question. I'm reading and wondering.
Walt, "Why chain"? Indeed and I think it has most to do w cat and it's benefit to holding power. 90% of the anchor talk has always been about holding power and if cat is typically present it should/would increase holding power.
Art, Very few anchors have the angle dangle adjustment. But all anchors are a bit different as to throat angle. The built in throat angle has a lot to do w anchor performance and it's my opinion that wide throat angles promote good short scope performance. Not that simple of course though.
Gotta run
The Distant Shores link has some very useful stuff in it but it often sounds like a commercial for Rocna anchors. It may not be 100% objective but then our anchor tests aren't either. I would think if one is to test short scope anchoring using an anchor that has been tested by others to be lacking in short scope performance seems odd. Perhaps Dashew dosn't speak English well as his sentence structure is strange. But hey .. nobody else (that I know of) is doing (testing) as he does so I'm very interested in his "Distant Shores" copy.
He says anchoring at SS (short scope) it's beneficial to use chain. To me SS would have very very little catenary and very long scope would have lots of catenary. So if chain is beneficial re cat it's (by far) most beneficial at SS. At long scope cat is not even needed .. it would seem.
Al stupid of me to have assumed otherwise.
Marin, almost nobody in the world uses Kellets. I made one and have never used it. ?? "All-chain rode has the kellet built in" Indeed .. that's what wer'e talking about. Does it or does it not? "don't have to tail a rope rode off a line gypsy." What on earth does that mean?
FF, There's a fisherman in Alaska (ironically w a Navy pers boat) than does the figure eight routine.
Cafe thank you so much for bringing something that looks like it could be genuine testing on the cat question. I'm reading and wondering.
Walt, "Why chain"? Indeed and I think it has most to do w cat and it's benefit to holding power. 90% of the anchor talk has always been about holding power and if cat is typically present it should/would increase holding power.
Art, Very few anchors have the angle dangle adjustment. But all anchors are a bit different as to throat angle. The built in throat angle has a lot to do w anchor performance and it's my opinion that wide throat angles promote good short scope performance. Not that simple of course though.
Gotta run
