Brand Of Oil And Filter

Geeessssss

A thread about oil is like a thread about anchors and chain v rope....

I use Valvoline 10-40 and all NAPA filters.........About $100 per engine and I change it every March.

Ski in NC said:

So are you suggesting trying to find an oil blend that matches those made in the 50's? Those blends are simply not made any more.

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The operator's manual for our FL120s, which were assembled in 1973, states that for our climate the correct oil to use is 30 wt. There are plenty of choices for 30 wt motor oil these days. We use Chevron Delo 400 but there are other brands as well.

What our manual doesn't recommend are multi-viscosity oils. (Later manuals for the same engine apparently do, however, if forum posts to that effect are to be believed). And of course the manual doesn't say anything about synthetics since they hadn't been developed for mass market use (or at all) in 1973.

My point is not that running multi-vis or synthetic or synthetic blend will damage the engine. Synthetics can cause non-damaging (I assume) leak issues, but the engine isn't going to sieze up or anything.

My point is that there is no significant advantage to using multi-vis or synthetics in this 1950s engine design. Running the engine on the oil it was designed to run on--- single weight dinosaur/tree fern oil--- will provide all the lubrication the engine needs for the service life of the engine. A service life that will most likely end as a result of a failure that isn't caused by insufficient lubrication.

The first vehicle I ever bought new is a 1973 Land Rover Series III Model 88 which I still have. It has a 2.25 litre gas engine wich is the petrol version of the engine Land Rover initially designed and produced as a diesel. So it has some diesel features on it--- roller followers on the pushrods, for example. Very clever on their part--- a diesel and a petrol engine for different markets, but just one engine assembly line.

Anyway, from day one I lubed this engine with Castrol 20-50 because that's what the [1973] owners manual recommended. I changed the oil and filter every 3,000 miles without fail. When at some 130,000 miles it burned an exhaust valve, we took the opportunity to have the whole engine checked over since we had the head off anyway. The engine specialist who did the job here in the Seattle area said that the inside of the engine-- the cam surfaces, pushrod rollers, crank bearings and conrod bearings--- looked like they had never been run they were so clean and wear-free.

So I am a total believer in using what the engine manufacturer said to use, and if that's unavailable for some reason, the closest thing to it. Sure, there have been all sorts of advances in engine lubricants. It's the only way the engine designers could do what they've done and continue doing.

But straight-weight 30 is still available all over the place in the case of the FL120, and so is dino/tree fern 20-50 in the case of my 1973 Land Rover.

I could use a newer-generation lubricant in both these engines, but why? I would realize no benefit whatsoever in terms of the service I'm getting out of either one of them.

Now going the other way, putting sraight weight 30 dino/fern oil in my wife's new Subaru, would be a very bad idea indeed.

This actually has been a good discussion from my point of view because it prompted me to look a little closer at the difference between my farm equipment based cold running lightly loaded boat diesel and my automotive engines. It appears that a monograde such as. Rotella 30 weight is the way to go in my 135 Lehman. A low TBN seems desirable in our cool running engines and these engines were designed to handle a straight weight oil on startup, unlike our modern auto engines I don't think my use of Delvac was harmful but I'm going to switch to Rotella 30 this fall (it seems like centuries away as the bay outside my window is frozen). Thanks again for some good discussion.

Mike

I am in exactly the same situation and have made the same decision. My only challenge is to find a good 30 wt oil that's API rated at CH, CI4 or CI4+ BUT NOT CJ4 as the other awakening for me was that the NEW API CJ4 class is not necessarily better than CI4 for older engines & marine applications (vs auto / truck w/ emissions controls)

Bacchus,

OK I'll bite ....

Why do you want CH and CI rated oils.

Delo 400 is probably the most popular oil used in trawler engines on this forum. The Delo 400 SAE 30 I use is rated CF/SL. What's wrong w that?

manyboats said:

Bacchus,

The Delo 400 SAE 30 I use is rated CF/SL. What's wrong w that?

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Eric,
Nothing wrong w/ Delo or CF oils - I just thought that CF was obsolete / hard to find... I have used Delo in the past in another boat and liked it at the time - don't recall what rating it was.

I will be looking into Delo as I want a SAE 30 rated between CD - CI (which is what Yanmar now recommends in their newer manuals).

I do intend to avoid CJ-4 rated oil - which is the most common / easiest to find at least as far as I've looked locally.

We have the often maligned but actually wonderful CAT 3116 engines. The oil selection is easy, CAT specifies a lubricating oil specifically formulated for the 3116/3126 CAT marine engines. It's called SAEO; Special Aplication Engine Oil. It's a straight 30 weight and is changed every 250 hours, which for us is twice a year minimum. We use CAT filters. We now have 3,800 hours on these diesels without a hiccup.

FYI, if you have CAT engines, and are located in south Florida, Pantropic Power in South Florida will on request send a technician to your boat. The tech will do an "engine health" inspection which includes pulling oil and tranny oil samples, and sending you a detailed report on your engine including photos of parts that may need attention, and the oil analysis report. The cost is $0.00. Yes, I did say $zero.

Howard

Bacchus said:

Eric,
Nothing wrong w/ Delo or CF oils - I just thought that CF was obsolete / hard to find... I have used Delo in the past in another boat and liked it at the time - don't recall what rating it was.

I will be looking into Delo as I want a SAE 30 rated between CD - CI (which is what Yanmar now recommends in their newer manuals).

I do intend to avoid CJ-4 rated oil - which is the most common / easiest to find at least as far as I've looked locally.

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I used Kubota branded motor oil in the genset on my last boat. Kubota makes a straight SAE 30 to CF-2/CF standards that doesn't meet the newer standards.

It would appear lots of happy campers go by the book. And have Cats, count me as one.

BlueYonder said:

I used Kubota branded motor oil in the genset on my last boat. Kubota makes a straight SAE 30 to CF-2/CF standards that doesn't meet the newer standards.

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Perhaps I bought that oil in Alaska and it dosn't meet tier ll standards.

"Perhaps I bought that oil in Alaska and it dosn't meet tier ll standards."

ALL oil sold for lubricating should have the standard it was mixed to on the label.

Although it works in other engines CFII oil is the requirement for DD 2 strokes.

Not usually used for 4 strokes.

I was at the boat today and checked. The oil I'm using is rated CF.

Most of the old Ford Econo Power conversions were happy with CD oil , which was most common in that era.

Using a higher rated modern blend simply means there are more additives , much higher detergent, as required to have an engine with EGR , eat its exhaust gas.

Switching "up" in detergent levels may cause new oil leaks .And the oils ability to exist in higher temperatures adds nothing.

The oil the mfg or converter specked when new is all that is required for your engine to "Live Long and Prosper."

Wow - I haven't heard this much craziness about oil in a long, long time.

The Yanmar engines I sell (industrial only, not marine) are approved, indeed recommended for CJ-4. ANY oil bearing the circular logo indicating conformance to API CJ-4 will meet the lubrication and longevity requirements of the OEM.

I can tell you many stories of industrial diesels with 100,000+ operating hours on them, now with CJ-4. We just did a major overhaul on an industrial engine with 105,000 hours and the crankshaft only needed one journal polished, the rest were fine. The cams looked new.

With the current ULS (Ultra Low Sulfur) diesel fuel, the very low TBN oils are perfect. TBN stands for Total Base Number, and is an indication of the amount of reserve alkalinity in the oil - the ability to resist acid buildup (drop in pH) mainly from sulfuric acid condensation from combustion gasses passing through the crankcase. Many of the engines I service operate on high sulfur fuels such as landfill methane, and higher TBN is appropriate for them.

Not so pleasure boat marine engines operating on ULS diesel.

So, my recommendation is: get your CJ-4 oil in any brand you desire in the viscosity recommended by the OEM and go enjoy your boat. The API has taken care of the oil specs in a degree of detail one thousand times more rigorous than any of us could ever imagine.

That's my two cent's worth. YMMV

JS

Driftless said:

Wow - I haven't heard this much craziness about oil in a long, long time.

The Yanmar engines I sell (industrial only, not marine) are approved, indeed recommended for CJ-4. ANY oil bearing the circular logo indicating conformance to API CJ-4 will meet the lubrication and longevity requirements of the OEM.

I can tell you many stories of industrial diesels with 100,000+ operating hours on them, now with CJ-4. We just did a major overhaul on an industrial engine with 105,000 hours and the crankshaft only needed one journal polished, the rest were fine. The cams looked new.

With the current ULS (Ultra Low Sulfur) diesel fuel, the very low TBN oils are perfect. TBN stands for Total Base Number, and is an indication of the amount of reserve alkalinity in the oil - the ability to resist acid buildup (drop in pH) mainly from sulfuric acid condensation from combustion gasses passing through the crankcase. Many of the engines I service operate on high sulfur fuels such as landfill methane, and higher TBN is appropriate for them.

Not so pleasure boat marine engines operating on ULS diesel.

So, my recommendation is: get your CJ-4 oil in any brand you desire in the viscosity recommended by the OEM and go enjoy your boat. The API has taken care of the oil specs in a degree of detail one thousand times more rigorous than any of us could ever imagine.

That's my two cent's worth. YMMV

JS

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And no, their mileage will not vary.

O C Diver said:

There are rating or standards that oils are tested to. Your engine owners manual will list specifications that they require for the oil they want used in there engine. The oil container has the specifications that they meet listed on the front or the back. There are several threads where this has been discussed before. The consensus is that there is none as far as manufacturer. There are several that have very good reputations. Frequency of changing probably has more benefit than which of the better brands. If you want a specific brand, Rotella T is considered one of the better brands.



Filters are a little different. There are several manufacturers that make and then private label there products. As an example, Wix makes a good quality filter, and they private label it for Napa auto parts store. Many people choose Wix as it's a good quality filter, easily sourced at a competitive price. There seems to be a general consensus to avoid Fram filters if you search the archives.



Ted

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I second the advise. Rotella is a great Oil for diesels and is readily available everywhere.
Fram filters I have used several years ago but their qualIty is NOT good. Their thread patterns are not consistent. One time the filter will spin on the next time you stop trying to install it for fear of ruining the filter threads on you engine block.

OK here goes. I retired from a major oil company and spent quite a few years in the lubricants division. Those who have said that is not difference in oil brands are spot on. About 80% of the base oils made in the US come from Exxon, Shell, Chevron and BP. Also over 80% of what's in the bottle is base oil, the rest is additive. Those additives come from a small number of chemical companies. WalMart does not manufacturer oil. They have someone else blend base oil from the big guys with additives from the chemical guys and put it in a WalMart bottle. This is not any different than buying "WalMaTussin" rather than Robitussin at the WalMart pharmacy.
So back to the question, there is not much difference in any of the oil brands, particularly if you change it on schedule. I use Rotella and no, I did not work for Shell.

Temptation said:

Those who have said that is not difference in oil brands are spot on. So back to the question, there is not much difference in any of the oil brands, particularly if you change it on schedule. I use Rotella and no, I did not work for Shell.

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So any old oil whether recommended for my lawn mower or gas engine in the Model A is suitable for a boat diesel? Throw in a few APIs and CJs and I'd be happier.

I see CJ-4 oil at the store but it's 15W40. The CF oil that I use comes in 30W. Does CJ-4 come in straight weight or CF in multi vis?

Viscosity aside what is the difference between CJ-4 and Cf rated oils?

Also, since we have new sources of expertise onboard what percentage of the additive package is multi viscosity improvers and what is the downside to their use?

As I understand it, API no longer tests oils to the obsolete standards. This has created some issues with straight weight oils as they won't meet the modern API standards, and API won't test them to the old standards. So Rotella 30 is stamped CF2 and CF, but nothing higher. A newer engine may require something higher than CF, and on the face of it Rotella 30 does not comply. But apparently it is still ok, it is just not tested to anything higher than CF.

Or something like that. The above cobbled together from random bits of info, so might not be accurate.

Maybe our oil guy knows more.

And Temptation, Welcome!! Having an oil guy here is quite a resource!!

Temptation said:

OK here goes. I retired from a major oil company and spent quite a few years in the lubricants division. Those who have said that is not difference in oil brands are spot on. About 80% of the base oils made in the US come from Exxon, Shell, Chevron and BP. Also over 80% of what's in the bottle is base oil, the rest is additive. Those additives come from a small number of chemical companies. WalMart does not manufacturer oil. They have someone else blend base oil from the big guys with additives from the chemical guys and put it in a WalMart bottle. This is not any different than buying "WalMaTussin" rather than Robitussin at the WalMart pharmacy.
So back to the question, there is not much difference in any of the oil brands, particularly if you change it on schedule. I use Rotella and no, I did not work for Shell.

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Agree with most of what you say. Lubricant people I worked with were instructed to talk of "additive packages" and that there were different qualities of additives and bases that could be specified by the blender. (blender= someone who mixes base stock with additives, packages, & puts on label or labels) I think it follows that someone blending/labeling for WalMart will be on the brink of non profit and so may need to use the least expensive additives and base stock that he can meet the spec. with. I know that, back in the day, there were very real differences between Pennsylvania and Texas base stocks.

I too am skeptical of Walmart Rotella. Considering the price pressure Walmart puts on suppliers, I worry that there may be a bit of skimping going on. Probably unfounded, but my oil supplier is about the same price so why bother.

It would be interesting to send in virgin oil samples from Walmart and my supplier and see if any of the additive concentrations are different. I might do that.

Temptation said:

OK here goes. I retired from a major oil company and spent quite a few years in the lubricants division. Those who have said that is not difference in oil brands are spot on. About 80% of the base oils made in the US come from Exxon, Shell, Chevron and BP. Also over 80% of what's in the bottle is base oil, the rest is additive. Those additives come from a small number of chemical companies. WalMart does not manufacturer oil. They have someone else blend base oil from the big guys with additives from the chemical guys and put it in a WalMart bottle. This is not any different than buying "WalMaTussin" rather than Robitussin at the WalMart pharmacy.
So back to the question, there is not much difference in any of the oil brands, particularly if you change it on schedule. I use Rotella and no, I did not work for Shell.

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Yo Temptation! Welcome... very pleasing to have your "Lube" expertise onboard!

I've a question for ya.

Renowned marine mechanic tells me that using high grade dyno diesel oil in classic flat tappet gasoline engines with 4 oz ZDDP zinc additive at each 100 hr. oil change is the best mix to run (I also put in another 4 oz ZDDP 1/2 way between changes... i.e. at 50 hrs.

Have you an opinion on this lube configuration?

Thanks in Advance, Art

mike66 said:

This actually has been a good discussion from my point of view because it prompted me to look a little closer at the difference between my farm equipment based cold running lightly loaded boat diesel and my automotive engines. It appears that a monograde such as. Rotella 30 weight is the way to go in my 135 Lehman. A low TBN seems desirable in our cool running engines and these engines were designed to handle a straight weight oil on startup, unlike our modern auto engines I don't think my use of Delvac was harmful but I'm going to switch to Rotella 30 this fall (it seems like centuries away as the bay outside my window is frozen). Thanks again for some good discussion.

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I was using straight 30 or 40 wt, as that is what Brian at American Diesel has always recommended.

BUT while in Maine two summers ago, at the local Wal-Mart, they only had 10W-40 because that's what the fisherman buy.

I used that for that summer, went to 30 wt for the summer in the south and then back to 10W-40 for the winter, as even the summers are not that warm here. I'll stick with the multi weight until we get back to the Caribbean.

By the way, besides mayonnaise, I should have brought more oil.

Temptation said:

OK here goes. Those who have said that is not difference in oil brands are spot on... Also over 80% of what's in the bottle is base oil, the rest is additive. Those additives come from a small number of chemical companies.

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Temptation... Thanks for adding first hand knowledgeable insights.

Your comments are in agreement w/ the links I included in post #21 -specifically the author (retiree from Lubrizol) of the TDR 57 article stated that “Consequently there is less and less difference between engine oil that barely passes the API certification test and one that is designed to pass by a significant margin. Therefore, oils meeting a given performance spec (example API CI-4+) are approaching commodity status.”

While I agree there are only a few additive manufacturers don't they each produce a variety of "additive packages" for different base oil suppliers and to meet the various API certification levels? Also, you did not mention different API class oils... wondering if you can elaborate re: the following

The impression I got from the linked articles is that the additive packages are different for different API classifications and - maybe more importantly - that the additive package for CJ-4 was developed specifically for vehicles w/ particulate traps and to meet reduced emission limits.
In the TDR 56 it states "As Martin noted in Issue 54, unlike all previous specification revisions, the latest CJ-4 is not necessarily better than the CI+4 specification that preceded it. So, if you have an older engine, you may want to stay with CI+4. Engines manufactured after 1/1/07 require the new CJ-4 specification. Newer, yes; better, not necessarily so."

The tdr 57 author states "I’m also guessing there isn’t one API CJ-4 oil above the Ho-Hum performance level. Use these oils only if you have particulate traps on your vehicles! "

This implies that CJ-4 while a newer classification may not be superior to prior classification oil/additive combos if you have older engines w/o emissions control devices.

I'm wondering if you feel there is any differences +/- of CJ-4 vs CF, CH, CI classification oils for our marine diesel application

Thanks

Greetings,
Mr. Tem. Welcome aboard.

I don't worry about it. Let the John Deere engine mechanic select my JD engine's oil.

sunchaser said:

So any old oil whether recommended for my lawn mower or gas engine in the Model A is suitable for a boat diesel?

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That is not even remotely what he said.

I respectfully withdraw from this discussion. Unfortunately social media instruments can't seem to support reasonable exchanges on many topics. In the boating community it appears we need to add engine oil to the list of inflammatory topics that includes anchors, VHF radios, batteries and a host of others. lawn mowers...Model A?

Temptation said:

I respectfully withdraw from this discussion. Unfortunately social media instruments can't seem to support reasonable exchanges on many topics. In the boating community it appears we need to add engine oil to the list of inflammatory topics that includes anchors, VHF radios, batteries and a host of others. lawn mowers...Model A?

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Sorry to see you go Temp. You could add a lot to this thread. Some boaters get a bit snippy... that can happen inside any forum about topics and/or beliefs.

Please reconsider and stay with us!

Thanks, Art