Island Packet SP Cruiser ditched at sea

If weather didn't sink the boat...then weather was only a partial factor...


If it was human weakness that brought it all on...that is an untested quality in most people.


Other weather reports may not have made the go/no go decision so black and white.

If that had been me I would be hiding my head, not making a video

Marin said:

Very puzzling deal. While I've never been in a situation like that I can appreciate the fear that would take over just about everything. Couple that will being ill and the urge to get off the boat no matter what would be overwhelming. Particularly as there were just two of them on board and they didn't have the benefit of having someone along who was more able to cope with a situation like this. I probably would have just wanted to go home, too.

What I find particularly puzzling about all this is the video itself. Why publicize something that clearly illustrates one's incompetence. The line on the radio--- "The engine's shot"--- is rather telling. The engine stopped, okay. But it's not shot. They obvioulsy didn't have the knowledge to get it restarted-- I would not be surprised if what it needed was to have it bled after a slug of air stopped it. I can understand the reluctance to get down in the engine room or space and bleed a fuel system and engine with the boat heaving around like that.

But to my way of thinking, it's the ability to do that that sets the competent skippers apart from the herd.

I'm not at all familiar with that part of the world so don't know what the water conditions are like or what dangers lie under the water in that area. But from the footage, the sea conditions looked a lot like what it looks like in Hawaii a fair amount of the time. Not pleasant but certainly boatable if you're up to it and have a boat that's suited for it. Which the Island Packet seemed to be from the IR footage taken during the rescue.

The tone of the video seems to be that these two guys felt like they cheated death and pulled off a miraculous survival in the face of overwhelming obstacles. We're heroes, the video seems to be saying.

They may be to people who know nothing about boats and boating. But they clearly had no clue as to the nature of their capabiitles and thus exceeded their limitations by a huge amount.

I wonder if they know this?

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When I was down in the Bay Area I used to laugh every time I heard a vessel assist request from a sail boat who's engine had failed. They are sail boats, right. I noticed from the video the the boat was fitted with a self furling jib. No attempt was mentioned of sailing the boat? A small triangle of that jib would have given them steerage and control. I'm sure sheets and furling lines are lead aft to the wheel house. These captains were incompetent at several levels, including too stupid to know it.

I wonder if you asked these guys "Who is Adlard Coles?" what their answer would be.

psneeld said:

If weather didn't sink the boat...then weather was only a partial factor...


If it was human weakness that brought it all on...that is an untested quality in most people.


Other weather reports may not have made the go/no go decision so black and white.

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Just to be clear, the boat didn't sink offshore. Also, the captain later said they were not taking on significant amounts of water, but just some that got in possibly through the outside lockers. He said the bilge pumps were keeping up.

The real reason I brought this up is because I have the same basic boat, and I wonder what I would do in that situation. If I had the family with me I would call the CG. No doubt. If it was just me and a buddy, I'm really not sure what I would actually do, but I would like to THINK I would try to bleed the air out and get the engine started. Maybe put out a sea anchor first to try to keep the boat pointed upwind, or if I had a sail rig put up a little sail and heave to possibly?

Do most boats that do some blue water cruising carry a sea anchor? Has anyone ever deployed one? Do they actually help ?

cardude01 said:

Just to be clear, the boat didn't sink offshore. Also, the captain later said they were not taking on significant amounts of water, but just some that got in possibly through the outside lockers. He said the bilge pumps were keeping up.

The real reason I brought this up is because I have the same basic boat, and I wonder what I would do in that situation. If I had the family with me I would call the CG. No doubt. If it was just me and a buddy, I'm really not sure what I would actually do, but I would like to THINK I would try to bleed the air out and get the engine started. Maybe put out a sea anchor first to try to keep the boat pointed upwind, or if I had a sail rig put up a little sail and heave to possibly?

Do most boats that do some blue water cruising carry a sea anchor? Has anyone ever deployed one? Do they actually help ?

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Make no F'ing mistake about it.....

Helo rescue is absolutely a dangerous evolution.....while the USCG and other rescue organizations make it look easy sometimes....WRONG ANSWER!!!!!

Keeping the family aboard a seaworthy boat is much safer...as long as the skipper can keep it afloat.

There's a thousand different avenues that could have been taken before, during and leading into post incident.

Without a thousand pages of trained accident investigators debating the incident.....everything else is exercising our own experiences and judgment in risk management.

Sea anchors may or may not be the answer...again without making a case study of this...and I won't because its worth thousands billable....there's always Monday Morning Quarterbacking which smacks of real inexperience in the real world, there litigation BS that the lawyers live for. there's accident/NTSB investigations that are mostly relevant and there's lessons learned from the rest of us.

Those willing to learn do so, those too busy pointing fingers are destined to do the same/equivalent some day....I think the term is arrogance.


I have personally flown, been involved with or managed similar cases..way too much info to post...buy me a few beers and we can discuss all of them...

psneeld said:

Make no F'ing mistake about it.....

Helo rescue is absolutely a dangerous evolution.....while the USCG and other rescue organizations make it look easy sometimes....WRONG ANSWER!!!!!

I have personally flown, been involved with or managed similar cases..way too much info to post...buy me a few beers and we can discuss all of them...

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I understand. Would like to drink some beers and learn more.

cardude01 said:

I understand. Would like to drink some beers and learn more.

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Learning is important...but more so is the camaraderie and beer!

It's the skippers knowledge and experience level in my opinion. Totally a bad choice by the owner of the boat but I'm sure he trusted them.

I know an owner of a Hatteras 60' power boat that trusted a non licensed sailboat owner to take his boat up and down the coast from Los Angeles to Cabo and on to La Paz. On the trip back he lost the boat. There were no pre checks and below deck checks while underway. Just watching the bilge light on occasion.

Watching the video made me think of this. Choosing a skipper should be common sense but I think the dollar blows that away.

Capthead said:

It's the skippers knowledge and experience level in my opinion. Totally a bad choice by the owner of the boat but I'm sure he trusted them.

I know an owner of a Hatteras 60' power boat that trusted a non licensed sailboat owner to take his boat up and down the coast from Los Angeles to Cabo and on to La Paz. On the trip back he lost the boat. There were no pre checks and below deck checks while underway. Just watching the bilge light on occasion.

Watching the video made me think of this. Choosing a skipper should be common sense but I think the dollar blows that away.

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Not only the dollar but the resume'.....you can have a ton of credentials and experience...but it is still the person that is important to hire.


And this is where insurance companies have their preverbal heads up their butts....I have friends I would trust with my life and 100 ton to unlimited masters I would let walk my dog.

I've been reading this with great interest and some anxiety. I'll be bringing a soon-to-be-mine Krogen 54 from Ketchikan to San Francisco this spring. The trip down the WA, OR, CA coasts always has the potential to deliver up some challenging seas.

I agree that we need to be cautious about pointing fingers, but it's worth asking questions and making observations.

As a sailor I have to wonder why there appears to have been no attempt to deploy sail. A sailboat without any sails up is not a very stable vessel in big seas. Even if motoring it's a good idea to have sail up to help the boat drive forward. A small amount of headsail can greatly improve the ability for the boat to track well and stay stable. I'd go as far as suggesting that if they had some sail up they may well not have experience the 50 degree heel.

I've not had my sailboat out in 30' seas (were they really 30'?) But in 15' seas under sail it will track very well with very little rolling if you quarter the waves.

I've been out in some big stuff but never really feared for my life. I don't know how I would react if I got to that point. Who does?

For certain I have made sure that knowing how to bleed the fuel system on my new boat is on the checklist!

Richard

Found this thread on sailnet.com. Obviously a slow car sales day for me...

"I found Andante 2 in the North Atlantic on June 10, 2013. I was on the way to New Brunswick, Canada from Montserrat and sighted her 230 miles north-northeast of Bermuda. She is dismasted but is riding high with her entire bootstrap showing. Both the full height aft door and the closed cockpit hatch were open yet she has not taken on water and even appeared dry within. Cushions are still in the shallow seating area just aft the mast. Her broken mast took out most of the tubular rail on the starboard side with the trailing wires. She also had a missing davit on the port side. Other than that she was in fine condition and looked good. I was solo in an angry sea that day so did not want to risk boarding her although I regret the loss of obvious salvage. I circled her and took photos then carried on in foul weather"

So the boat made it through the storm, but not the mast. As far as I can find, no one has recovered the boat.

Britannia,

I've been out in verified 16' seas with 5' breaking seas on top, winds blowing steady 45 kts with gusting to 65 kts. It was in the Pacific and had thousands of miles of sea pushing these huge rollers.

I was the only trawler but there were many sailboats traveling with me. The sailboats looked like it was nothing to them while I was going to the 45 both sides. I would see sailboats completely disappear with the top part of the mast showing, then reappear. They all had some sails up to steady them. Common sense, right?

Interesting Video.

The body/mind do work against themselves at times offshore. The decision process slows to a crawl when extreme exhaustion sets in.. we have all seen it in the faces of survivors of long tern ordeals, whether on shore or on the water. Experience lessens this to a extent.. but everybody has a limit.

The storm we sat in for 5+ days crossing the Pacific taught us what ours was..we had a period for over 24hrs I never even went topside or bothered to look around. Over 50kts of wind, 20' + seas and the closest dirt was over 300 miles away.. we sat hove to.. laid on the salon sole wedged in between sail bags. We had the abandon ship discussion after putting up with the never ending trashing for a few days.. if a cruise ship had pulled up and offered us a ride I believe we may have taken them up on the offer. But we were there in a completely different situation than the video.. the weather forecasts had been spectacular and the "event" we got clipped by came from nowhere.. we did the minimum that we had to do to protect the boat and ourselves, and finish our voyage.

It taught me the most valuable lesson I have learned in life.. what my mind and body can take and continue to function. Every rough weather situation since has paled by comparison and we have sailed with a different confidence in how had we can push ourselves.

I in no way ever seek out rough weather.. been there done that. But I feel fortunate to know what I do have in reserve if needed. The Admiral uses our event as a baseline in her life.. she is a hard core Marathon runner.. she started running distance after we went cruising.. I have heard her reference the "event" numerous times stating that marathons are a piece of cake compared to storm conditions in a boat. She is in Africa currently doing the Kilimanjaro Marathon.. she travels all over the world doing extreme marathons.. I think this is her 30th marathon.

All that being said I have a few thought on the video, and they are all unkind.

1- owner hired a idiot delivery skipper
2- I would of been embarrassed to jump ship, he had options
3- the video is a telling sign of his inabilities.
4-since he clearly didn't know what their function was for I bet he was really pissed when he had to swim vs. being hoisted from the deck because of those tall aluminum sticks on the roof of the boat.
5-he was lucky the coasties came out and got him before he could really hurt himself.



I know the above comments are harsh.. but the skipper put himself out there with the video.. it is great that others get to learn from his mistakes.

HOLLYWOOD

psneeld said:

Those willing to learn do so, those too busty

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Wifey B: Just what do you consider too busty? :lol:

Obvious the biggest mistake was route and when they left, as far as the mayday I was not in the vessel and not sure a video can capture it, I'm sure in their minds they were in eminent danger and decided to bail, thankfully the very skilled USCG is on scene to save them.

Now I might have missed it, but did the vessel ever wash-up onshore?

In most human factors accidents...you can almost always go back to experience and training....in this case, unless someone has a handle on that and medical conditions of the crew, and a few other minor type bits of info...lots of speculation may come back and haunt all those speculating.


Nothing worse than being an accident investigator and missing something very simple at the beginning.


Have at it at the generic discussion, start pointing fingers and the last laugh might be on you....

Clearly we don't know all the facts. We do know a few things that can help us. First, be careful of known problem areas. Then on top of that be very aware of the capabilities of your boat, but most importantly yourself.

I find it interesting as the vast majority of boats I've heard needing Coast Guard assistance off Hatteras in recent years have been sailboats. I think some sailboat owners may be a bit less attentive than they need to be to their engines and fuel systems. I hear them brag that 300 gallons of fuel will last them 18 months. Well, that brings with it many issues especially when they don't refill it along the way.

We always carry seasick medications and for those new to the water encourage the use of at least patches. Although we've neither ever been sea sick if we were hitting conditions like that, we'd take them. I've seen more captains immobilized by seasickness than injuries of any type. Regardless, knowledge of how to treat all sorts of medical conditions is important.

We don't know details. It would appear some kind of mistake was made, just from the results. But what kind and if it's one that was careless or inept, we don't know.

We've taken the outside route in that area. But we've done it in faster and bigger boats. And we've done it in good conditions, always with a plan if things started turning bad ahead of us. As to sea anchors, I'm not an experienced sailor and don't know how many use them. But if you have a functioning engine and a working fuel system then you can accomplish the same without them. When you lose all power as in this case is when they would help.

Oh, and as pointed out earlier, don't abandon a big boat that is still floating ok, for a little tiny boat, any sooner than you must.

Marlinmike said:

Obvious the biggest mistake was route and when they left, as far as the mayday I was not in the vessel and not sure a video can capture it, I'm sure in their minds they were in eminent danger and decided to bail, thankfully the very skilled USCG is on scene to save them.

Now I might have missed it, but did the vessel ever wash-up onshore?

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See my post a few ahead of this one. Boat was sighted but don't know if it was salvaged.

Sad Story

This is a sad story and I can not say much other than...
Sail the boat.....always sail the boat....
This should of been a none issue for any experienced offshore or at least knowledgeable sailor....
Just glad all involved survived and no CG guys were hurt or lost.

Capthead said:

Britannia,

I've been out in verified 16' seas with 5' breaking seas on top, winds blowing steady 45 kts with gusting to 65 kts. It was in the Pacific and had thousands of miles of sea pushing these huge rollers.

I was the only trawler but there were many sailboats traveling with me. The sailboats looked like it was nothing to them while I was going to the 45 both sides. I would see sailboats completely disappear with the top part of the mast showing, then reappear. They all had some sails up to steady them. Common sense, right?

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Yes - common sense indeed for a sailboat.

I assume you didn't have stabilizers? I'm hoping the Wesmar fins on the Krogen 54 I am buying will reduce roll in those circumstances.

Richard

No stabilizers and I learned a valuable lesson, even if a passenger begs you to go, don't go in gale force winds and high seas even if you can make it. It's not worth the risk.

My fuel tanks had been steam cleaned and vacuumed out plus all fuel polished or I don't think I would have gone. I can run a 2 micron primary and the vacuum gauge never moves. It's great having clean fuel.

Britannia said:

I'm hoping the Wesmar fins on the Krogen 54 I am buying will reduce roll in those circumstances.

Richard

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That's a great boat. When are you acquiring it? Stabilized too!!!

Moonstruck said:

Marin, that area is well known for fast build up of seas during storm conditions. It is known as the "Graveyard of the Atlantic". This is the area where the Bounty went down last year.

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If my history knowledge is correct this also where the Monitor sank while under tow to a new theatre of operations. Of course it wouldn't have required very rough water to sink it.

I responded last night about this thread, then read my response and erased it. To me, the telling part of the experience is, as noted by Marin, the willingness to publish such a video. It's a darned good video of two guys that are either willing to share the experience out of total, unbridled ignorance or or total, unbridled humility, and I can't tell which. To give them the full benefit of the doubt, common sense would suggest that the sail rig was inoperable and/or their physical health limitations were crictical factors. I can understand that bleeding the fuel system in that tight, heated engine space would be no plcnic either, but the position of the engine and surrounding bulkhead make it, by far, one of the simpler tasks to perform on that design. If there were other factors leading up to the decision to abandon ship, why not share them in the video? Duh?!

First of all there is a reason that 99% or more of the boaters run inside to Morehead City before going offshore. Only an idiot would try Oregon, Hatteras, or Ocracoke inlets in stormy seas. They are some of the worst inlets on the coast


Do, that was my first, second and third thought. The rest of it, time will tell more,meanwhile I don't want to bury these guys without further information. Playing quarterback on Monday is always easier then Sunday

Well if the boat was sighted off Bermuda in June, I guess it was not being blown towards the shoals during the event.

Wonder where it ended up....

I disagree its hard to say anything at all based on what is there. What is presented is their story, by them. Based on the video, all I can surmise is incompetence. I will be happy to recant that once compelling evidence to the contrary is presented.

They state, around minute 11:00 That their only alternative as the weather deteriorated was a "15 hour steam to Morehead, NC"
They could have heaved to.
They could have run with the wind.
(among other options)

If it wasn't apparent previously, at 11:45 it seems obvious that as the engine quit using the sails was never a consideration for them.
I believe that if I ask every SAILOR I know, and I pose a hypothetical: your engine quits and you need to quickly regain control of your vessel. Put out some sail is the consensus. Baffles me.

I don't buy into they were incapacitated physically. There is no mention of that to the CG, it does not sound that way when they are talking either. This crew seems inadequate to the vessel they had in the predictable conditions they put themselves in.

Furthermore I believe had they been sailing the entire time, their experience on board would have been much better during the weather encounter. Perhaps they should have spent less time relaxing and filming, and more time learning their systems, capabilities and limitations.

I have one other thought. I'm trying to put myself in their position. I'm taking this Packet around Hatteras. The weather is going to deteriorate. ok I've been there before. Not that I would have made the decision to go when they did, but assuming I had (why?!) After getting out, I would have definitely put out the sails and cut the engine. Why would you not want to see how she sails before heading into bad weather?

They didn't seem to mention the sails much.......but at the beginning of the video they are really excited about the electronics! I see two roller furling head sails and a roller main. That inside furler sail uses a pivoting boom that indictates to my eye that it is less than 100% fore triangle. That sail would be very easy to control and work with. Also the main could be CAREFULLY set about half way out and the boat would have been self tacking and very easy to control. My guess is that neither of them understand the term "Hove To". Some hull designs won't do this very well but I have been on boats where they were moving like a bucking bronco and as soon as I set up and Hove To the whole drama ended and we were riding like a cork.

But that's it billy, why would you sail into weather and not opt to learn how your boat sails?

I've had similar experiences with winds topping out at over 55kts and once we had all had enough we ran with it. Immediate and drastic improvement. My wife was in the cockpit reading book for Pete's sake (It's all isinglass enclosed).