Is boating for the rich? Feeling dismayed

pewterputter said:

Thanks Tony_B My friend said early on that he chose the 8 1/2' beam because he wanted it to be trailerable. He is the king of efficiency though and I am sure that had something to do with that spec too!

BandB this is not homebuilt stuff but a full-on manufacturer-built complete boat. He has most all his vendors already on board so I am sure he is able to project final cost. And, he is not the kind of guy that would post a price on the SeaPiper company website unless he was confident he could meet that price.

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My comment is regarding him not having built one. And i'll always be skeptical of anyone building his first, whether a boat builder or home builder or any other builder. As to his cost, he can't possibly be efficient on the first boat, but if he can absorb that then hope for more.

pewterputter said:

Thanks Tony_B My friend said early on that he chose the 8 1/2' beam because he wanted it to be trailerable. He is the king of efficiency though and I am sure that had something to do with that spec too!

BandB this is not homebuilt stuff but a full-on manufacturer-built complete boat. He has most all his vendors already on board so I am sure he is able to project final cost. And, he is not the kind of guy that would post a price on the SeaPiper company website unless he was confident he could meet that price.

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It is a nice bare bones boat design, kind of like a Great Harbour N37 Mini/Light. Went over the web site and my first impression was a buyer better be prepared to hang a few solar panels and a controller on it as there doesn't appear to be any space for a generator and it wasn't listed as an option. Air conditioning? Well, if you want to sell boats in Florida or the southeast, you better have it or at least provision for it. That wasn't listed as an option either. May be possible to add a genny and AC below the cockpit or optionally store a portable gas genny. Thought I read somewhere that it came with a heater but didn't see it in the equipment list.

Does the backwards outside steering wheel provide any value?

A big negative is having to walk outside to get from the pilothouse/galley to the cabin/head. Not sure I am that thrilled with the door being on the from of the pilot house but it should provide nice ventilation.

What I like a lot is the 34" draft and low air draft. Also liked the fuel tanks which appear to be fiberglass.

My overall impression is the SeaPiper 34 is a west coast/PNW boat for a cruising couple. The pricing doesn't seem to be that low for what you are getting and to fully provision it will probably take another $100K or so. Seems to me like a Ranger 31 is laid out a lot better except for the engine room and cockpit storage. YMMV.

Most folks do not realize that mere volume is not a boating goal.

A comfortable, safe interior that is a pleasure to LIVE in is preferable to a cabin that echoes.

Sure the liveaboard set wants huge volume to store junk from their past lives they cant toss, but for a cruiser,( that is not aground in his coffee grounds ), has little use for big empty space.

FF said:

......Sure the liveaboard set wants huge volume to store junk from their past lives they cant toss, but for a cruiser,( that is not aground in his coffee grounds ), has litle use for big empty space.

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Your statement is only partially true. A 34' boat with an 11-12' beam is hardly what anyone would call a huge volume to store anything, let alone junk. We live aboard and travel and 50% of my storage space is tools and spare parts including rope, anti-freeze, oil and filters. The other 50% comprises clothing, drinking water and food storage. Some of the water and food actually gets stored in the v-berth. My interior living space is always kept neat. maybe I could start stacking stuff on top of the fridge, settee's etc. so I could bring in past life junk. I guess we could run around naked in the summer, which is not really a bad idea, although illegal, and clothe ourselves in a blanket toga in the winter. Having said that, an 8 1/2 boat beam would leave little to no storage- Picture a 25' sailboat hull stretched to 34' long. I'm not saying that traveling cant be done because I have done it on my 25' sailboat. That was on the gulf coast where gas, food and supplies were never more than a day's ride and I was a lot younger.
A 34' boat with an 8 1/2' beam is great for trailering. There are even some trailer sailor forums on the web. However a normal beam on a 30' boat would have more room than a narrow beam on a 34' boat and would also be less expensive for slip fees in addition to having more 30' slips available than 34 ' slips.


BTW FF, what's the beam on your boat?

todays market favours the less well off. There are some amazing well maintained boats available in the 100K +_ range.. Imagine buying something that would cost 1 million to replace having just as much fun as the original owner at 1/10 the price.


A problem I see today is that buyers just don't know a good deal when the find it.

a 34' boat with an 81/2' beam seems to me to be a recipe for a pretty tippy boat.

The manufacturer might just build one and see if the design even works out.

Very Tippy. Just step on a smaller sailboat and watch it tip and rock.
I saw somewhere in the specs where the manufacturer shows 'ballast'.
Surely he isn't counting the engine and tankage as ballast. And even at that, it will still be tippy.

Tony B said:

Very Tippy. Just step on a smaller sailboat and watch it tip and rock.
I saw somewhere in the specs where the manufacturer shows 'ballast'.
Surely he isn't counting the engine and tankage as ballast. And even at that, it will still be tippy.

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Claimed 2500 pounds of cast iron ballast set in resin and claims it adds strength to the hull which only has 1/2" of FRP below the water line. I would like to hear some comments on that.

For a 15,500 pound boat, that seems like a lot of ballast for a power boat but I am certainly not that knowledgeable on it.

freshalaska said:

The cost of health care is what can make or break you, and it has nothing to do with boating or land based living. Number one reason for bankruptcies in the US and that included people who HAVE health insurance. Lots of places in the world with good health care at a lot more affordable cost then the US. Now understand I live half the year in Alaska with maybe the highest health care costs in the world. The other half of the year I spend in Asia and am currently anchored with many other yachts with stories of their mostly good experiences of affordable good health care in Asia.
The cost of health care in the US can eat your lunch. It broke me once.

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I have dual citizenship, USA and Canada. Health care costs can be somewhat deferred for me if I choose to spend more than 6 months a year in Canada. Also my pension has a 13th check (most years) that can often pay for the entire years health insurance. I am lucky in that sense.

Donsan said:

Claimed 2500 pounds of cast iron ballast set in resin and claims it adds strength to the hull which only has 1/2" of FRP below the water line. I would like to hear some comments on that.

For a 15,500 pound boat, that seems like a lot of ballast for a power boat but I am certainly not that knowledgeable on it.

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As a comparison my old 28' Bayliner had between 3/4 and 7/8" solid fiberglass below the waterline.

A buddies sea sport had 3/4"

1/2 inch seems light to me but who knows with modern vacume bagged constructioon methods.

The manufacturer need to move his design from paper to reality to even see if it works. Persoanlly I do not have much confidence.

What I see is a tippy lightly constructed boat at a price point that I do not believe to be realistic. That and its serving a target buyer that I'm not sure even exists.

The concept of people actually wanting to tow a large boat is fictional in my opinion. My 28' Bayliner loooked and felt like the frigging Queen Mary behind my one ton truck. Towing a big boat is no fun at all.

Donsan said:

Claimed 2500 pounds of cast iron ballast set in resin and claims it adds strength to the hull which only has 1/2" of FRP below the water line. I would like to hear some comments on that.

For a 15,500 pound boat, that seems like a lot of ballast for a power boat but I am certainly not that knowledgeable on it.

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I've got 2500lb of cast iron ballast in my bilge. It doesn't slow the boat down at all!!

Ski in NC said:

I've got 2500lb of cast iron ballast in my bilge. It doesn't slow the boat down at all!!

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Have you ever run it without the ballast to know that for sure? I'm kidding obviously but my point is how would you know for sure that it wouldn't slow it down. I don't know how fast your boat runs, but ballast probably has no effect at hull speed. On the other hand, once one rises above that, then it's going to have some impact, although probably only 1 or 2 knots.

Ski in NC said:

I've got 2500lb of cast iron ballast in my bilge. It doesn't slow the boat down at all!!

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THis would only be because of hull shape limiting your speed to begin with. Your fuel consumption is affected though. Weight of the craft will always slow it and/or increase fuel consumption. The laws of physics can not be bypassed or violated. Even spacecraft in weightless space are affected in both speed and fuel consumption by weight.

I think he means engine... Of course the boat goes slower without the engine and faster with it.

Or am I missing something??

Ah yes, you may be right. He's playing games. Good catch

Ha!! That was rude of me. Yes, 2500# of cast iron... engine.

ksanders said:

a 34' boat with an 81/2' beam seems to me to be a recipe for a pretty tippy boat.

The manufacturer might just build one and see if the design even works out.

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Kevin,
A well designed boat that is narrower will have less cabin and top hamper. You must be thinking of an 8.5' beam boat w the cabin of a typically fat boat. Like a 23' trailer boat w a FB. An 8.5' beam boat that has good proportions and an appropriate CG and trim will not be "tippy". IMO.

ksanders said:

The concept of people actually wanting to tow a large boat is fictional in my opinion. My 28' Bayliner loooked and felt like the frigging Queen Mary behind my one ton truck. Towing a big boat is no fun at all.

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Exactly!

I would rather have a 12 ft beam and give it to a semi to tow to it's new location if you can not go by water. The cost of 1 ton truck and 3 axial trailer is kind of expensive.

"Weight of the craft will always slow it and/or increase fuel consumption"

raise fuel consumption yes!

hurt speed . hardly on a displacement boat, if the engine is not at max.

Only much ungood for plaining boats.

A marine ton is 2240 lbs , close enough to the 2500lbs of ballast.

One ton of weight requires 3 hp at normal cruise , at a normal 15HP per gallon burned an extra 1/5 of a GPH will be required for the safty of ballast .

Worth it ? Up to You.

FF said:

"Weight of the craft will always slow it and/or increase fuel consumption"

raise fuel consumption yes!

hurt speed . hardly on a displacement boat, if the engine is not at max.

Only much ungood for plaining boats.

A marine ton is 2240 lbs , close enough to the 2500lbs of ballast.

One ton of weight requires 3 hp at normal cruise , at a normal 15HP per gallon burned an extra 1/5 of a GPH will be required for the safty of ballast .

Worth it ? Up to You.

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Notice I stated his hull shape as a factor in the speed. Yes, by the laws of physics weight will ALWAYS slow a craft, however the slowing is not noticed because the speed is already limited by the hull shape.

Mick Scarborough said:

...... however the slowing is not noticed because the speed is already limited by the hull shape.

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Slowing is always noticed by hull shape and weight. By 'noticed', I am referring to a an actual calculated 'slowing'. You would not be aware of it if you had a more than sufficient engine driving the craft, however, in something like a sailboat which typically has very low power, you will definitely notice the slowing. Get on a small sailboat, say 25', with a friend and go sailing. Then come back with the identical wind and water conditions with 3 friends. You will definitely notice the difference.
As for speed limited by the hull shape, well, that only works on full displacement hulls. A flat bottom, planning hull has no theoretical hull speed. It is limited by the amount of engine power. When a flat bottom boat just plugs along, it is just like a displacement hull. When more power is applied, the boat squats down and goes faster. As it squats and goes faster, the flat bottom is pushing the boat against the water rather than moving through it. This then causes the boat to rise a little. As it rises out of the water, the waterline becomes shorter, and shorter and shorter as you rise into a plane. Have fun calculating the theoretical hull speed on a waterline of one foot or less. The formulas for hull speed are for displacement hulls only.
Anyhow, this Seapiper 34 specs say it has a flat bottom. That gives us somewhat of a planing hull with no theoretical hull speed. A typical 34' displacement hull has a theoretical hull speed of around 7 to 7.5 kts. The specs for the Seapiper 34 says it cruise around 11 kts and max out at about 15 kts. This adds some truth to my statements.
On this particular hull, the skeg/keel will also add a certain amount of drag and restrict it's planning ability but still allow it to act like a planing or semi-planing hull.

"When a flat bottom boat just plugs along, it is just like a displacement hull."

Except the flat bottom is a poorer weight carrier and will have more wetted surface so will require some extra HP to compensate.

Also at disp speeds many flat bottoms will have the transom immersed , another fuel cost to drag the water behind the transom.

For best "efficiency " at displacement speeds a displacement hull is needed.

Of course 10% more skin friction drag and 10%-15% more transom drag does not change the fuel bill much on a 2 to 4 GPH boat.

While a flat bottomed boat may not have a top speed the occupants will.

The flat boat will pound at speed in anything but smooth water .

Most Patrol boats are deep V to reduce the G loads at speed in open water.

Given the above info, it appears that the Seapiper 34 is nothing more than a trawler look-alike. I have never towed a mid-size boat before and now after reading a few posts about towing, I see the Seapiper market getting smaller and smaller. As for the idea of adding a mast and making it a motorsailer, I seriously doubt it would do anything but become a hazard for an 8 1/2' beam with a flat bottom.
It really is a cool looking boat though.

ksanders said:

The concept of people actually wanting to tow a large boat is fictional in my opinion. My 28' Bayliner loooked and felt like the frigging Queen Mary behind my one ton truck. Towing a big boat is no fun at all.

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People 'wanting' to tow their midsize boat is a reality (see ranger tug sales), until they actually do it (see above).

bligh said:

People 'wanting' to tow their midsize boat is a reality (see ranger tug sales), until they actually do it (see above).

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In the area I lived in for decades, towing boats was very much the thing when I was young. However, as vehicles got smaller and as dry storage units were built, it pretty much stopped except for bass boats, generally towed by pickup truck. Now as more and more people bought trucks it picked back up a little but still mostly bass boats and very few larger boats. Living in Fort Lauderdale, I don't even know anyone who owns a trailer. Now I know there are some, but still primarily fishermen.

If it's a huge effort to get your boat where you want to use it, then it's just human nature that you'll do it less and less. The first time there's the new excitement but then you get very jealous of all the others who can just go and crawl aboard their boats.

It's a lot like those who have long drives to their boat. Usage drops proportionately to the length of drive.

bligh said:

People 'wanting' to tow their midsize boat is a reality (see ranger tug sales), until they actually do it (see above).

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Thats right. When I had a trailerable cruiser the dream was to haul it to various ports in Alaska depending on what we wanted to fish for.

Then I actually hooked my truck to a real 28' X 9' 7500 pound boat, a Bayliner 2859. Figure another 2K for the trailer so the package was pushing 10,000 pounds, and was something over 12' high.

My truck was and still is a Ford 1 ton with diesel and manual transmission. No argument, an excellent tow rig.

The reality was that I ended up towing the boat twice a season. Once to the harbor and once home.

Well I guess you're just not a truck driver Kevin.

I was a truck driver and can relate. But the air brakes on a truck are much better than a little truck and of course trailer brakes. Driving your described rig would not be a problem for me but paying for it all WOULD. I actually like shifting gears and driving trucks.

My dad had a 25ft Bayfield sailboat, he towed all over the place. He towed it across country and spent the winter in the Caribbean on it. Another winter he brought it to the Sea of Cortez. It was an awful sailing boat and only had abot 5 ft of headroom at the most and he sure seemed to enjoyed it. At that point in my life , I thought the boat was cool, but way to small for me to be comfortable in for anything more than one or two nights.
Bayfield 25 in water, but a trailerable pocket cruiser

Agreed that towing a big boat (New Moon is 12K lb on the trailer, 33 feet long, and 13 feet tall) is not a ton of fun. But it can be a good solution for some, and one does get a lot more comfortable with it with practice (73K miles on this boat/trailer so far). Getting good at trailer maintenance is a key part of that. And it sure helps that most of the roads I tow on are not too crowded.

I live in Utah, boat mostly in SE Alaska and BC, and find it to my liking to keep my boat here at home, and launch it wherever I choose to go. So for me the tradeoff of a smaller boat that is just reasonably towable works.

That said, I guess I could be talked into a Nordic Tug.......