The dreaded phone call
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High Wire
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Going from 20A to 30A on the dock is not just a breaker change, the wire and possibly the conduit as well may need upsizing. To change to a 30 amp breaker without supporting changes would be, lets just say no electrician would do it.
JD-- Don't feel bad. You're not alone in having to ante up for a simple electrical adapter.
The portable pumpout carts in our marina use a 30 amp male twist plug on the end of their power cable. The slips have 30 and 50 amp receptacles.
But.... In order to reach the pumpout fittings on the boat we need to position the cart too far down our finger for the cart's cable to reach the dock stand. So we simply unplug our groundpower cable from the boat and plug the pumpout cart into it.
But.... A previous owner fitted a 50 amp groundpower receptacle to our boat. Maybe that's all he had at his slip in SFO Bay, I don't know. When I made up a new, much longer groundpower cord after buying the boat I put a 50 amp female connector on the boat end so we wouldn't have to change the boat's recepticle.
Which means the pumpout cart can't plug into it.
So we had the owner of the marine electric shop we use make us up a 30 amp male to 50 amp female adapter about 2 feet long. The price of the components alone came to well over $100.
I wish it was my name that was the Marin in Marinco...
The portable pumpout carts in our marina use a 30 amp male twist plug on the end of their power cable. The slips have 30 and 50 amp receptacles.
But.... In order to reach the pumpout fittings on the boat we need to position the cart too far down our finger for the cart's cable to reach the dock stand. So we simply unplug our groundpower cable from the boat and plug the pumpout cart into it.
But.... A previous owner fitted a 50 amp groundpower receptacle to our boat. Maybe that's all he had at his slip in SFO Bay, I don't know. When I made up a new, much longer groundpower cord after buying the boat I put a 50 amp female connector on the boat end so we wouldn't have to change the boat's recepticle.
Which means the pumpout cart can't plug into it.
So we had the owner of the marine electric shop we use make us up a 30 amp male to 50 amp female adapter about 2 feet long. The price of the components alone came to well over $100.
I wish it was my name that was the Marin in Marinco...
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Steve
Guru
Cardude, most Monk 36s and others are set up with 2- 30 amp inlets, as mentioned earlier, one for the "normal house loads" the other for the air conditioning and heating, In my Monk's case air conditioning is on a separate panel. When I am not going to be using the air conditioning or heaters I only plug in one 30 amp power cord. I do travel with 2, 30 amp cords, and a 50 amp to two 30 amp splitter, when I go to a marina and want airconditioning I can plug in both 30 amp cords if the marina has 2, 30 amp outlets. If the marina has only 50 amp then I plug in the splitter and the two 30 amp cords from it. Write your name and cell phone # on the splitter in case it gets left at the dock they are $$$$$.
C lectric
Guru
Jim,
Several things I would suggest. They, some, have been suggested but are all over the thread.
-- New cord/adapter -- you' ve done it.
--Lightly coat the terminals of your new plug with dielectric silicone grease, light body, or a good spray even to the point of doing it several times to coat the interior contacts of the receptcle. The plugging in will make metal to metal contact. Redo several times over the season.
--Get the marina to install a NEW receptacle or the old one will do a number on the new plug.
--Is the receptacle box protected from the weather. It often does not take a lot , just keep the weather out of it with a plastic top and side cover. The flip lids are NOT good enough usually except when they are closed. Not much good when the cord is plugged in.
--Tie the cord to the pole or support it somehow. Wiggling and partial disconnects from people walking by/kicking or vibration can cause the plug to partly disconntect.
--If the 20A dock plug is a twist lock then twist it backwards before plugging it into the receptacle. The cable will then have a preload twisting in the locking direction to hold the twist lock prongs in the receptacle. Don't force just the adapter to take the twist alone, use several feet of the entire cord. Don't get carried away as this may damage the cord if twisted too much.
I'm going to add this, had second thoughts, as a discussion point between you and the marina. Get them to change the receptacle to a 30A unit.
That way you will have the benefit of somewhat larger contacts. Only the receptacle. This is frowned upon but may be worth asking about. The circuit breaker, 20A , will remain the same as will the wiring between. You will still only have the 20A capacity but the connection should be more robust. If the electricain is reluctant then take his lead.
If this can be done then you will not need the adapter eliminating one connection.
Maybe later you can get them to upgrade the circuit.
Several things I would suggest. They, some, have been suggested but are all over the thread.
-- New cord/adapter -- you' ve done it.
--Lightly coat the terminals of your new plug with dielectric silicone grease, light body, or a good spray even to the point of doing it several times to coat the interior contacts of the receptcle. The plugging in will make metal to metal contact. Redo several times over the season.
--Get the marina to install a NEW receptacle or the old one will do a number on the new plug.
--Is the receptacle box protected from the weather. It often does not take a lot , just keep the weather out of it with a plastic top and side cover. The flip lids are NOT good enough usually except when they are closed. Not much good when the cord is plugged in.
--Tie the cord to the pole or support it somehow. Wiggling and partial disconnects from people walking by/kicking or vibration can cause the plug to partly disconntect.
--If the 20A dock plug is a twist lock then twist it backwards before plugging it into the receptacle. The cable will then have a preload twisting in the locking direction to hold the twist lock prongs in the receptacle. Don't force just the adapter to take the twist alone, use several feet of the entire cord. Don't get carried away as this may damage the cord if twisted too much.
I'm going to add this, had second thoughts, as a discussion point between you and the marina. Get them to change the receptacle to a 30A unit.
That way you will have the benefit of somewhat larger contacts. Only the receptacle. This is frowned upon but may be worth asking about. The circuit breaker, 20A , will remain the same as will the wiring between. You will still only have the 20A capacity but the connection should be more robust. If the electricain is reluctant then take his lead.
If this can be done then you will not need the adapter eliminating one connection.
Maybe later you can get them to upgrade the circuit.
O C Diver
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I would likely have been thrown out of that marina. Would have flipped the breaker off and replaced the 20 amp receptacle with a 30 amp marine twist lock. This wouldn't have been a problem as the 20 amp breaker would still limit the receptacle and wiring to 20 amps. I would have a much safer electrical connection as a result.
Ted
Ted
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I like the swop for a marine 30A socket , it is waterproof.
Even the sockets from Home Cheapo come in a huge variety , from the 59c "contractors special" to the 20A industrial or hospital rated ..
A piece of shock cord and a plastic bag might help, but if possible I would change marinas.
With only house grade sockets , it is probable that your friends on the dock plug in with house hold extension cords.
When these slip into the water they can pass enough electric to PINK every hunk of bronze below the water for many yards.
MUCHUNGOOD!
Even the sockets from Home Cheapo come in a huge variety , from the 59c "contractors special" to the 20A industrial or hospital rated ..
A piece of shock cord and a plastic bag might help, but if possible I would change marinas.
With only house grade sockets , it is probable that your friends on the dock plug in with house hold extension cords.
When these slip into the water they can pass enough electric to PINK every hunk of bronze below the water for many yards.
MUCHUNGOOD!
Questions, regarding both salt and fresh water dockage and electric current in water:
If there is a very good condition (like new) live-wire 30 or 50 A electric cord hooked-up to dock and boat with 3' of it dangling in water what is the amount of electric current emitted into water?
Also, considering same item as above except instead of 3' dangling in water there is only 1' or maybe as much as 10' dangling in water... does that make difference of amount electric current emitted into water?
And, if electric cord is not new, but rather it is quite old would that alter the amount of current emitted into water considering same circumstances as mentioned above?
What if the connected power cord's exterior insulation was cracked and dangling in water but interior wires were still independently insulated? How much current then released into salt or fresh water?
If there is a very good condition (like new) live-wire 30 or 50 A electric cord hooked-up to dock and boat with 3' of it dangling in water what is the amount of electric current emitted into water?
Also, considering same item as above except instead of 3' dangling in water there is only 1' or maybe as much as 10' dangling in water... does that make difference of amount electric current emitted into water?
And, if electric cord is not new, but rather it is quite old would that alter the amount of current emitted into water considering same circumstances as mentioned above?
What if the connected power cord's exterior insulation was cracked and dangling in water but interior wires were still independently insulated? How much current then released into salt or fresh water?
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JDCAVE
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I'm going to talk to them today. There are some "socio-cultural" reasons where I very much want to stay at this marina. I now have a proper pigtail adaptor. I figured I could make one but realized the one I had was probably home made. This was probably "ok" for occasional use while transient but it isn't acceptable for use in poor weather in the winter months. I have other Marinco adapters for the 50-30 and the 15-30 amp connections.
I'll talk to the marina today or tomorrow about the receptacle and upgrade of service. I'm going to check the other harbour authority docks to see if they have 30 amp service and go from there.
Jim
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I'll talk to the marina today or tomorrow about the receptacle and upgrade of service. I'm going to check the other harbour authority docks to see if they have 30 amp service and go from there.
Jim
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The reason I asked about a heater is because it cascades to a duty cycle kind of issue. I know these cords say 30 amps, but I've found many here in the nw who have routinely melted cordsets at under 30 amps. The problems and fire history is very well documented, as well as the cause. The contacts lose good mating coverage and what's left overheats. I ultimately concluded that 30 amps is just not reasonable as a continuous duty rating in anything other than perfect as new condition and you rarely can control all the connections as at least one is owned by the marina.
Heaters of course wind up running a pretty high duty cycle. They cycle on and off, but the cord may not sufficiently cool between cycles. I did not have a problem until I wound up with a 48 foot boat. Same cord, but more space to heat. One typical heater won't do it, so then it was two and when they both cycle on at the same time, then I could be over 20 amps, let the battery charger or frig happen to cycle on and I'm suddenly trying to maximize that 30 amps that is only safe if everything is perfect, which we know it's not. I tried for a few years to change out cords and sockets and keep everything perfect, but empirical evidence of routinely feeling cord ends as I passed by would unexpectedly find a warm connection in timelines of a couple months and the process would start over. Bottom line, it's not practical.
So I went another way, invested thousands and have a very large battery bank, and a co-generating inverter and a shore power current that can be set at a limit, the inverter makes up for the peaks above that limit, usually about 15 amps. The cord never gets asked to run more than 15 so does not overheat, and so long as the average current is below 15 amps I can handle the occasional 20 amp peak demand without eveR pulling more than 15 amps. Whew, but it worked and never melted a cord since.
Your Problem is that you have a boat size that won't really be heated by a single heater, like mine. If you derate the heater, it will just run constantly. Sometimes that's as hard as cycling on and off as there is no cooling period. Again, once the charger cycles on, you will be pulling significant amperage for a 20 amp outlet. If you can't get a bigger supply and connection, trying to heat will always lead to an iffy scenario eventually.
I finally turned the heaters off completely for piece of mind, but then I had condensation to deal with. Winterizing itself is not a big deal. Thus last winter I finally went with a full time dehumidifier. It pulls much less current than a heater, but the boat stays dry.
Oh how I wish I had 220v 50amp service, but so long as it's 30 amp, or in your case 20 amp, I think you have to seriously consider the practicality of high duty cycle use of that connection and the likelihood you eventually burn down. It's not without serious consideration, that those around you will eventually light off too for the same exact fundamental issue. Rarely is just the one vessel impacted. Saving on moorage only makes sense if the boat survives. Winter boat fires are common and the cause is more often than not electrical.
Heaters of course wind up running a pretty high duty cycle. They cycle on and off, but the cord may not sufficiently cool between cycles. I did not have a problem until I wound up with a 48 foot boat. Same cord, but more space to heat. One typical heater won't do it, so then it was two and when they both cycle on at the same time, then I could be over 20 amps, let the battery charger or frig happen to cycle on and I'm suddenly trying to maximize that 30 amps that is only safe if everything is perfect, which we know it's not. I tried for a few years to change out cords and sockets and keep everything perfect, but empirical evidence of routinely feeling cord ends as I passed by would unexpectedly find a warm connection in timelines of a couple months and the process would start over. Bottom line, it's not practical.
So I went another way, invested thousands and have a very large battery bank, and a co-generating inverter and a shore power current that can be set at a limit, the inverter makes up for the peaks above that limit, usually about 15 amps. The cord never gets asked to run more than 15 so does not overheat, and so long as the average current is below 15 amps I can handle the occasional 20 amp peak demand without eveR pulling more than 15 amps. Whew, but it worked and never melted a cord since.
Your Problem is that you have a boat size that won't really be heated by a single heater, like mine. If you derate the heater, it will just run constantly. Sometimes that's as hard as cycling on and off as there is no cooling period. Again, once the charger cycles on, you will be pulling significant amperage for a 20 amp outlet. If you can't get a bigger supply and connection, trying to heat will always lead to an iffy scenario eventually.
I finally turned the heaters off completely for piece of mind, but then I had condensation to deal with. Winterizing itself is not a big deal. Thus last winter I finally went with a full time dehumidifier. It pulls much less current than a heater, but the boat stays dry.
Oh how I wish I had 220v 50amp service, but so long as it's 30 amp, or in your case 20 amp, I think you have to seriously consider the practicality of high duty cycle use of that connection and the likelihood you eventually burn down. It's not without serious consideration, that those around you will eventually light off too for the same exact fundamental issue. Rarely is just the one vessel impacted. Saving on moorage only makes sense if the boat survives. Winter boat fires are common and the cause is more often than not electrical.
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JDCAVE
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Thanks ghost and Clectric for your advice. I'm going to the marina today to discuss some of this problem. The freedom 20 is set for load sharing with the other AC loads. I have set the two space heaters for their lowest heat settings at 500 amps. They are pretty much on all the time right now. Am I correct with the following calculation: (500+500 watts)/120 volts=8.3 amps? I have a unit on the boat called a circumvent that works well to control the humidity most of the time but cannot keep up with the humidity that we've experienced over the past couple of months this winter-Pineapple Express after Pineapple Express. That said, the boat is not a damp boat at all. I do like the idea of a dehumidifier though. I'll consider that for next year. The "Dries airs" cannot keep up with the event events.
Thanks again for your advice although I'm not presently inclined to change marinas.
Jim
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Thanks again for your advice although I'm not presently inclined to change marinas.
Jim
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Trust me, I get it. Quite the imperfect world we deal with. As far as the amps, best to measure. I would have said double that, but at the lower setting thats probably right. Add in the charger and occasional frig, derate the 20cable to 15 and your right there quite a bit.
I would suggest the smart plug, but that only helps the boat end, plus I've seen a few of those melt too (one my own), usually the retrofit plugs. The complete molded cable does not seem to have had that problem. Probably worth going to, or some other upgraded type of connection.
BTW the dehumidifier I scored for free! A buddy of mine got it at the trash on a boat going up for sale, as the brokers like to get everything off. It was a heavy duty marine style unit worth about 1200 too.
So far this winter, its been absolutely super. Last year this time I had mold starting and moisture I never had to deal with before. This year would have been worse. So....cross your fingers but I think the dehumidifier is going to be a real answer.
I do turn up the amperage on the cables, but only while I'm aboard.
I would suggest the smart plug, but that only helps the boat end, plus I've seen a few of those melt too (one my own), usually the retrofit plugs. The complete molded cable does not seem to have had that problem. Probably worth going to, or some other upgraded type of connection.
BTW the dehumidifier I scored for free! A buddy of mine got it at the trash on a boat going up for sale, as the brokers like to get everything off. It was a heavy duty marine style unit worth about 1200 too.
So far this winter, its been absolutely super. Last year this time I had mold starting and moisture I never had to deal with before. This year would have been worse. So....cross your fingers but I think the dehumidifier is going to be a real answer.
I do turn up the amperage on the cables, but only while I'm aboard.
Edelweiss
Guru
Ain't that the truth. . I know we live in the "rainy PNW", but this year has got to be one of the wettest I have ever seen. Waves of monsoon like storms marching in off the Pacific.
When all this wet weather gets me down, I just tune into the weather channel and watch the East coast weather reports. I hear the Polar bears are migrating south from Churchill, Manitoba and are roaming the streets of Boston now!!
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Edelweiss
Guru
Ghost
The Smartplug was a good idea, but has suffered a number of dramatic failures. The ones I have seen all failed on the boat end, due to the cable twisting inside of the plug and shorting out the boat end smartplug. Looked like the plastic cable locking mechanism wasn't strong enough to prevent cable twist. Is that how your's failed?
Yes I agree, one piece cable with molded plugs seems to be the way to go, water proof and long lived. As long as the dock receptables are maintained, everything is good. But they're only as good as the marinas dock receptacle. Pig tails are more, open to the weather, sockets and plugs to add resistance to the cable.
The Smartplug was a good idea, but has suffered a number of dramatic failures. The ones I have seen all failed on the boat end, due to the cable twisting inside of the plug and shorting out the boat end smartplug. Looked like the plastic cable locking mechanism wasn't strong enough to prevent cable twist. Is that how your's failed?
Yes I agree, one piece cable with molded plugs seems to be the way to go, water proof and long lived. As long as the dock receptables are maintained, everything is good. But they're only as good as the marinas dock receptacle. Pig tails are more, open to the weather, sockets and plugs to add resistance to the cable.
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JDCAVE
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Yes, Ghost. I will put a clamp meter around the power chord and record real time amps with various devices on the system. The fridge and freezer are individual Novacool DC units and combined draw 11.5 amps at 12 volts DC. The Freedom 20 after being off for a while with discharge to the batteries, when turned back on "spikes" at about 85 amps (~1,000 watts) and then drops quite rapidly down to 60 amps. The two heaters at a combined 1000 watts. My quick calculation suggests a peak load of 2,200 watts or about 18.3 amps at 120 volts with all of these devices on at the same time. Not a lot of wiggle room, that's for sure.
Jim
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Jim
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Art-- I don't believe a cord in good condition will leak any power into the water if it sags into the water between the dock stand and the boat. But we always pull a cable out of the water if we see it's slipped to be drooping into the water because there is no way for us to know if the cable has a slit or some other wear or failure poinnt that puts water or moisture in contact with the conductors inside the casing.
Larry, mine did not short out. I'm not sure about J's, or if you saw that one. On mine, it all held together, it seems that even though the copper was "shiny" it did not conduct well. Funny thing is, that in its melted state, I cut another six inches off the cable, used the same terminals and screwed it all back together and it worked fine again! I just had to use a pocket knife to cut enough of the melted goo away to be able to get a screwdriver into the terminal again. Smart plug has supported these pretty well, though they did get a bit accusing of J before realizing the problem was not user install deficiency. J does not start out by describing what he does for his day job, neither do I though they were bend over backwards helpful when I mentioned it, but then they had personally given me a few for the club, very supportive. I'm not sure I think the thermostat they claim is really working.
But as I said, the molded plugs, I have not seen or heard of a failure. I start to actually wonder whether the practice of putting new Marinco plug ends on the old Marinco cords is actually suffering from the same kind of failure. We always blamed the cheapo plug locking ends, which is certainly contributory, but I start to second guess whether "cutting back to shiny" metal is actually a part of the problem.
If you had seen my shiny metal, still firmly clamped into a goo of melted plastic, you would know what I mean.
I still think the smart plug has a much better mechanism overall.
But as I said, the molded plugs, I have not seen or heard of a failure. I start to actually wonder whether the practice of putting new Marinco plug ends on the old Marinco cords is actually suffering from the same kind of failure. We always blamed the cheapo plug locking ends, which is certainly contributory, but I start to second guess whether "cutting back to shiny" metal is actually a part of the problem.
If you had seen my shiny metal, still firmly clamped into a goo of melted plastic, you would know what I mean.
I still think the smart plug has a much better mechanism overall.
kulas44
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Let us know what your clamp meter reads when you clamp it around you power cord.
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JDCAVE
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I'm having trouble interpreting the clamp meter reading. It's a cheap clamp meter. The meter is set at 2/20A~. Of I put it around the heater cord (supposed to be 600 watts) I get a reading of 0.043-0.050. Around the power cord with both heaters and the Freedom 20 on a low state of charge and I get a reading of 0.30. I'm not sure if I'm using it properly. The reading moves around a lot. The voltage on the receptacles is 110 volts AC with the heaters off and 106 volts AC with heaters on. The Freedom 20 is sitting on Accept and showing a low state of charging.
Jim
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High Wire
Guru
You have to put the clamp on ammeter on only one wire of the cable (i.e the black), not the whole thing.
For something like a heater power cord, you need a splitter which splits the hot and neutral without actually splitting the cord.
For something like a heater power cord, you need a splitter which splits the hot and neutral without actually splitting the cord.
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JDCAVE
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I just talked to the fellow in charge of the maintenance down here and he said they are changing the entire pond over to 30 amp this summer. I suggested he start with Britannia dock while they are building new docks at the other locations.
Jim
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Jim
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I pull em out too. Good dock mates do!
But, I see too many boaters simply walk by and some board boats leaving line sagged into water.
Edelweiss
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Mr. P
Yes, my main cord is one piece. I have pigtails for the rare marina that doesn't have 30A, but it has been years since I had to use them. I'm confident the one piece, molded plugs to cable setup is the way to go with either Smartplugs or Marinco.
I don't think I saw your failed Smartplug, but i did get to examine a couple of other failed Smartplugs and the thermal coupler did not protect them either and they did twist, short out and meltdown. Smartplug gave the one guy I talked with, some grief initially before offering to send him a one piece replacement cable with molded plugs, but he also had to give them the failed plug. I got to see the plug before he sent it back. I like the lock feature of the Smartplug, but I'm not ready to switch over yet.
