All chain rode versus rope

Mule said:

Good eye Bruce, 1000 watt horzonal, I left out a 0.

I spent the afternoon splicing the chain to 8 plait 5/8.... That was a job, far tougher than standard 3 stran nylon or Sampson braid. I hate to even think about 12 plait.

Click to expand...

Got a pic of what it looks like when done? How does it pass through your windlass?

Tomorrow, I gotta soak the new rode, I have yet to burn the frizzies. The whipping is done. Have not tested it through the windlass yet, got dark..

Poop Sanders, that's all I've got to say, poop! It's was actually a very nice day for prawning then the fog rolled in, then out. Maybe tomorrow.

I have 100' of chain and 300' of 3/4" nylon braid. I'd put all chain on there but it won't fit on my drum.

FlyWright said:

How does it pass through your windlass?

Click to expand...

There is an alternative to Rope chain splice shown in Maxwell link. See here:

8-Strand splice Page 2 | Sail Magazine

This sort "running" splice seems to generally produce a better transition although obviously Maxwell disagree. Maybe try both and see which works best with your gypsy.

Maxwell have patented a special "wave design" of gypsy to handle both rope and chain. Some independent reports suggest the gypsy works much better than the oppositions attempts. This may explain why they prefer a different splice.

I (actually my wife did the splicing) have spliced 8 plait onto chain (with a running splice) and used this for many years. The splice passed through the gypsy (Muir vertical) quite well although the grip as you would expect was not as secure.

The lack of grip in the transition did occasional cause a problem. One anchorage in Italy where the depth dropped off rapidly we dragged in storm force winds. The depth was over 80m only just outside the anchorage. I could use the capstan to recover the rope but the grip was insufficient for chain. The grip on the chain gypsy was insufficient over the splice area to recover the full weight of the chain and anchor. Not much fun.

These were extreme circumstances, but many boats keep rope rode in reserve to give extra scope in strong wind. The transition between the rope and the chain needs some careful thought. What works well in light wind may not be satisfactory for strong conditions. In these conditions you may need one hand to hold on and communication between the helm and foredeck will be very limited.

Not many anchorages drop off in depth as rapidly as those in Europe, but if you drag you are still likely to be recovering the anchor in much deeper water than normal. The grip on the gypsy needs to at least cope with the weight of the chain from the bow to the bottom. If the bow is blown off while this happening the force will be greater.

Unfortunately, the splice tends to be too bulky to pass through a chain stopper. A short length of rope with a chain hook is helpful in at least securing the chain as the rope/chain splice passes around the gypsy. This way if the splice jumps out the whole length of chain will not drop to the bottom.

Photo showing the sort of splice we used (although not our handiwork)

I'll stick with what the windlass manufacturer recommends for the best performance of their windlass. I don't see any sense in changing to an untested splice recommended to the contrary. Mine has worked flawlessly for 5 years. It's tough to beat that record.

FlyWright said:

I got a reply from Testing Engineers. I doubt even "crowd funding" would be sufficient to pursue this.

"Thank you for contacting us for your testing needs. We have performed similar tests in the past, and have a few questions to ensure testing performed meets your expectations.

Are you able to splice the rope onto itself to form a loop that we can use for testing?
Do you have a fixturing method in mind to ensure that the chain is axially loaded?

We anticipate a cost of at least $1,000 to machine fixtures and conduct the test. We also welcome you to come to our offices to speak about this project, to sort out how you envision testing this product."

I told him thanks for the reply but the cost was too high for a matter of curiosity. Still hoping we have a source 'in house' who could assist in our little experiment. Hopefully, Salty Dog will have the measuring equipment and recording capability required for the test.

Click to expand...

What I have has a calibrated gauge that measures the pressure on the ram.

I calibrate the gauge with a deadweight tester.

The system is specifically made for testing welders and welding procedure qualifications. There is no recording device per say. What happens, with steel at least, is that the gauge will rise to a point where the strap will start to stretch. The gauge will not go higher than this point. We observe the gauge. The specimen will pop shortly after. The way we evaluate the tensile strength has to do with the area of the part being tested. (width x thickness). The line will be stretching and how to evaluate the area is subjective. The testing offered would be in accordance with your specifications, that is the kind of language I might use if I was not going to give information of any value in my opinion. The chain end of the specimen would need to be on the last link if using the standard supplied jaws or the jaws would get jammed. The holding fixture they are speaking of is to prevent the line itself from breaking at the point it is held in the jaws. The load applied is going to be different than the shock load in use.

We will still find that the splice is the weak point. You may want to think about seeing what kind of load it will handle by having it suspend a load inches off the ground.

I would think it is better economics to replace on seeing any degradation than doing any additional testing. It is hard to beat experience and the manufacturers recommendations.

(not proof read) well none of my posts are.

Bay Pelican said:

Got to hear stories of anchoring in 100 feet of water with 600 feet of line out.

Click to expand...

Oh, I have a log book full of those stories.

In my part of Alaska under a hundred feet is very shallow for an anchorage.

ksanders said:

Oh, I have a log book full of those stories.

In my part of Alaska under a hundred feet is very shallow for an anchorage.

Click to expand...

Kevin

How many feet of rode do you have?

Bay Pelican said:

Kevin

How many feet of rode do you have?

Click to expand...

Right now 700 total. 100' of 3/8 BBB and 600' of 8 plait.

I'm going to 550' of 5/16 ht next month when it warms up enough to get on the boat.

Impressive

Bay Pelican said:

Impressive

Click to expand...

I don't know, its just necessary.

I'd love shallower waters.

We often drift fish for rock fish in 600'+ of water. Thats a long way to reel up to check your bait.

600' of 5/8 and 45' 5/16"HT. Kevin, are you going to top your nylon with the new chain or switch to all chain? My boat is too small to stow that much chain on the bow. I have another 400' of 5/8" and 25' of 1/4"HT for a stern line, with a big stainless snap hook on the end for a shore line. Keeps the chafe off in the tide zone.

AKDoug said:

600' of 5/8 and 45' 5/16"HT. Kevin, are you going to top your nylon with the new chain or switch to all chain? My boat is too small to stow that much chain on the bow. I have another 400' of 5/8" and 25' of 1/4"HT for a stern line, with a big stainless snap hook on the end for a shore line. Keeps the chafe off in the tide zone.

Click to expand...

hey Doug

Your boat doesn't happen to still be in Seward is it?

I'm eliminating the line and its a PITA to use with the capstan side of the windlass. Going with all chain.

I can actually use the chain weight forward. With my skiff hanging off the back of the boat deck I'm trimmed too far aft as it is. The chain will help level it out.

If you think about it It's probably about 400 lbs additional I'll be adding to the bow. Thats like two guys standing at the bow, or 70 gallons of water.

On the hard in Homer, at the Boatyard. It went in this morning for new bottom paint, from the new barrier coat on up with three coats of high copper and a new boot stripe. My front deck is getting all of it's new holes through the core sealed and a windlass platform installed. It is a torn apart disaster area And that is no exaggeration. I tore the dinette out and am completely redesigning the fore and aft seating into an "L" shaped settee, better bed, and going with a new propane oven this year. Did I mention it's all torn apart? I would be worried about it going together, but I have money That helps! Of course I won't have any left when I am done...

That's funny Doug. I'd love to tear out my L shaped settee and install a dinette.

FUNNY

When I sleep in the bow, it's dark and I sleep too much. The fore and aft dinette was too narrow for two people, one was always in fear of falling off. When I go "L" shaped I drop my seat height from the cabin floor and can run the bed back under the rail to the hull instead of to the cabin wall. If I sleep in the main cabin, the sun comes up much better, I sleep less, and I can reach the controls for the heater from bed

On the thread, if my new LoFrans Vertical windlass doesn't like my 5/8" laid line I will be looking at brait. The laid rode pretty much fills the anchor locker to the limit, brait should lie flatter in the box. Maybe get another 200' in there, sometimes 600' isn't enough, would love to have 800.

I will be buying 550ft of 5/16s BBB in a few weeks for my trip in 2016

Does anybody on TF use a combination rode on a vessel weighing more than 30 tons?

That's a good question Tom.
As much as I prefer combination and if I were facing that question I wouldn't consider it practical unless I was ....
1. Very confident in the combination splice.
2. Using a hydraulic reel winch.
Otherwise I'd use all chain w a boat over 12 tons. That despite my long standing opinion that mostly nylon makes a better rode.
Handling a heavy rode w a captain and making the switch to a gypsy .. as I said .. dosn't seem practical.

One far out option may be to use all nylon Brait with a winch designed for line and chain. The chain function of the winch not being used. I could see doing that w an anchor larger than usual. That would be a 40lb anchor for me. Just a thought. But re your question that wouldn't be a combination rode.

edit ... Does anyone market a combination winch suitable for a 30-50 ton boat?

The 30 ton boats here usually use a reel with a combination of chain and wire rope.

sunchaser said:

Does anybody on TF use a combination rode on a vessel weighing more than 30 tons?

Click to expand...

Real tons? Or Coast Guard tons?

Ours is documented at 35, actually about 28K lbs, and we use a combination rode.

-Chris

So if some don't like all chain or mixed rode and chain or all rode the answer is all cable (as I often note on fishing rigs) and exchange the weight of chain to a heavier anchor. I don't buy the centenary argument for all chain because when the wind pipes up it disappears. I also don't buy the easier set with chain because letting out more cable or rode has the same effect and can be shortened after set. The only advantages I see to all chain is ease through a wildcat and abrasion resistance both problems can be solved without all chain. I think the all chain thing grew out of the need of old school none digging anchors they need all the help they can get. Sparks will fly.

Great story here of an all chain rode failing;

Hurricane Hugo

MurrayM said:

Great story here of an all chain rode failing;

Hurricane Hugo

Click to expand...

I know this guy is a lot more experienced than I am, but being very familiar with the coast of sc including Charleston, he made a critical mistake in where he chose to anchor. Noticed he said he was the only boat. There was a reason he was the only one there. There are so many places he could of taken that sailboat and faired much better. In these times you need to seek local knowledge! I'm glad they were safe. First, he made a decision too late and second, his choice was bad. Hopefully others can learn from him.

Dilemma: I have 240 feet of rusty 3/8" chain and it fills the anchor locker. I would like to replace the chain with anchor line but I doubt if the chainlocker will hold enough line. The windless will handle both chain and rope.

Eye,
There are many here that use all chain but nobody that uses all line ... to my knowledge. So the real question is "how much chain?"

And that leads to the question of why use any chain at all?Ninety five percent of the answer to that is weight to insure or increase catenary from the essence of anchoring posts of the past.

And that leads to the question of how much (if any) catenary is needed?

If "lots" is the answer then chain is best for rodes. If "none" is the answer then line is all that's needed. Excluding the special needs of coral and other troublesome bottoms.

Haven't tried all line but I'm always fairly close to that so it appears both all chain and probably all line works. A asked once if there was anybody here using all line and nobody responded. Do you think if I dropped the 6 to 15' of chain and went to all line anchoring would become difficult or dangerous? Chapman recommends a "short length" of chain but I've never heard anybody using all line on a trawler size boat.

Ancora,
Brait is probably the answer to your "stuffing it all in" problem (or potential problem). Are you thinking of an all line rode? Would the swinging radius at anchor be a problem if you do?

ancora said:

Dilemma: I have 240 feet of rusty 3/8" chain and it fills the anchor locker. I would like to replace the chain with anchor line but I doubt if the chainlocker will hold enough line. The windless will handle both chain and rope.

Click to expand...

The "braid" line takes up less room than chain and you'll love it! Very flexible, soft on the hands, easier to store (not stiff) strong, etc.

I would imagine abrasion would be extreme at the thimble and shackle with no chain. I used 1/2 the length of my boat as a guideline, but will be moving to 1 1/2 times the length when my windlass is installed. I do a lot of anchoring on short scope in deep water during calm weather patterns, and I think the weight compensates for lack of scope. Sometimes the middle of the bay with a breeze beats shallow sets with bugs

I think the chain keeps the rode from tangling on the bottom in current and tide changes, getting the rode away from the anchor.

I doubt a chain locker full with chain will take any more rode than chain, brait or not. Chain stacks pretty tight, so it sounds like it's time to chop into something to make the anchor locker larger. I raised my windlass above the deck to increase the "fall" by getting about 10" above the anchor locker with my pedestal and base.

Braid has a core, brait does not. Brait is limp, braid is not any more limp than laid line in my experience, sometimes less so depending on the line.

ancora said:

Dilemma: I have 240 feet of rusty 3/8" chain and it fills the anchor locker. I would like to replace the chain with anchor line but I doubt if the chainlocker will hold enough line. The windless will handle both chain and rope.

Click to expand...

What's your goal for replacing chain with line? IOW, why?

-Chris

Check out the info on Page 9

http://www.yalecordage.com/pdf/anchoring_tech.pdf