All chain rode versus rope

In the two cases of rope separation...


Was it relatively new and well-kept, appropriately-sized rope? Or was it 100 years old, small, gross, stiff, smelly stuff? Or...?


-Chris

Capt.Bill11 said:

Why yes, I was fully aware of what it is and what it's used for without having to Google it. I've even used it once or twice myself.

I did not say they were not used at all. And I stand by my statement that it is not used that often. I think I can count on two hands (OK maybe I'd need to use a toe or two) the number of boats I've seen anchored that way in the last 40 years or so of boating. Even in the Bahamas.

If done right and any other close by boats are using it, it can be a useful technique in some specific situations.

Click to expand...

Capt Bill.....at last someone that is posting not routinely anchoring in 20 fathoms and more. I am in Southist FL, treasure coast and I really do not see myself dropping the hook in much more than 30 feet. I have 65' 5/16" chain and 250' of 5/8" 8 plait nylon. This is tied to a 44 lb Rocna, pulled by a Maxwell 100 watt winch. The other end tied to a 25,000lb Present Trawler. I have couple of Danforths stashed along with a few hundred feet of 3 stran that I hope to NEVER use. Your 40yr pedigree leads me to ask... Your opinion?? Adequate??

I'd say more than adequate in most cases you'll be dealing with. Just keep an eye on your line to chain connection and use chafe protection.

If you have to deal with hurricane conditions I'd say a bigger anchor and 3/4" anchor line might be nice to have.

The best thing about combination rode and chain set ups is the shock absorbing characteristics of the line rode lessens the snatch loads on the anchor and goes a long way to keep it from breaking loose.

ranger42c said:

In the two cases of rope separation...


Was it relatively new and well-kept, appropriately-sized rope? Or was it 100 years old, small, gross, stiff, smelly stuff? Or...?


-Chris

Click to expand...

The rope that separated at the roller was older. The rope that chaffed on the bottom was reasonable in age. Don't have a lot of information as things were hectic for the one boat I was involved with and don't know about the other. Have met one of the cruisers but don't know either.

Bay Pelican said:

Continue to observe the rope/chain vs all chain differences in dragging among the cruisers. .

Click to expand...

Good job Marty for pointing out what works vs what one postulates. In the PNW all chain seems more common with fewer dragging episodes. Once north of Cape Caution people seem more alert to big blows and being left to their own devices.

Unless you use a reel winch, all cable, all chain or all line you will need to be dependent on the rope/chain splice.

I remember many testimonials from members here that the splice works fine and shouldn't be an issue of concern. And there are those like psneeld that think the splice is not practical because there are too many issues w the gypsy slipping on the line. I can't imagine how that could be doing the line any good. But the question is how much harm is the gypsy doing to the line? To lift a lot of chain and a big anchor it would seem to me that that would take a lot of "pinching" force to keep the line from slipping.

On the surface I was taking in some positive thoughts on the splice from the positive testimonials I read on TF. Me, being a fan of not using equipment on a boat that is heavier than it needs to be is leaning toward more line and less chain. But I believe there are advantages to chain and like others want to benifit from them but don't want to carry weight that isn't "cost effective" .. weight wise.

We all want to have the advantages of chain and no one wants to make a scow out of their boat w unessessary weight. The obvious solution is the combination rode using the splice. I'd like to use more chain but (at this point) refuse to go all chain and end up with a short rode.

So I'm interested in the performance of the splice but have never seen a splice test. It looks like the only way I'm going to find out is to get a system w the splice and use it. Wish there was an easier way.

I have a 30' boat and get along fine w a 15' length of chain and lots of nylon. If I had a bigger boat, like 95% of TF members have I would probably have all chain or a reel winch. But the rode wouldn't be very long if I had a traditional winch.

You can't have the cake and eat it .... or can you? What is the real record on the splice?

As to the strength and durability of nylon I have no doubts. And compared to chain it's so light larger line is an excellent option. I'm oversized w my line but would go w the minimum if I had chain.

"You can't have the cake and eat it .... or can you? "

Of course you can. In fact you have to have the cake in order to eat it.

What you can't do, is eat the cake and have it too.

Eric quote: If I had a bigger boat, like 95% of TF members have I would probably have all chain or a reel winch. But the rode wouldn't be very long if I had a traditional winch.

Click to expand...

Why not? If you have a bigger displacement or semi-planing boat it will be able to carry a decent length all-chain rode no problem. We carry 200' of chain and the boat sits level to its marks. One slip away from us is an identical make and model of boat and it has 300' of all- chain rode. Its trim in the water is identical to ours. Sure, there may be some tiny difference that is measurable but when you look at the two boats floating together there is no discernible difference in trim.

This is one factor in our considering swapping out our 200' rode for 250 or 300 feet. Our boat won't notice the difference.

I have a chain/line splice of 5/16 chain onto 5/8 8-ply Brait that I'm planning to retie soon. If we can locate a shop with a tensile testing machine willing to measure its strength, I would be willing to cut off the splice in one piece, preserving some line and chain on each side, and offer it for testing. This is a splice that has been in regular use since April 2010 on my Californian 34 LRC.

manyboats said:

...But the question is how much harm is the gypsy doing to the line? To lift a lot of chain and a big anchor it would seem to me that that would take a lot of "pinching" force to keep the line from slipping...

Click to expand...

I'm not sure any harm is being done. Sailboat winches and clutches have been in use for years and the loading is high, in some cases up to 5000 lbs. When the lines/sheets get replaced, it is usually a result of chafe where the lines exit a block not from the winches.

Some uplifting and positive stuff here.

Hope the test gets done Al and tanks for volunteering the specimen. Has that splice not been re-done every so often? I thought re-tying the splice was standard practice.

Larry that sounds very good. Hadn't thought about it but sailboats are better candidates for using the splice than trawlers being in a position to benifit more from reduced weight. Thanks for sharing that.

Marin I spend a few minutes looking up the weight of 1/4" chain .. didn't find. But it's not really a matter of exactly how much it weighs but is it necessary? Or is it cost effective (weight wise) and in my opinion it is not and in you'rs it is. I think you're fooling yourself and trying hard to fool us about chain rode weight. It does matter but the question is HOW MUCH. And it's a grey area we're talking about. I have very light ground tackle and have been 100% successful anchoring. Many here on TF have never dragged an anchor w a chain rode. They both work. But it's my opinion the boat works better w/o unnecessary weight and consider the upper half of a chain rode as unnecessary weight. You think it is. But if you apply your philosophy about weight in the same way for all the other weights on your boat it could be very heavy boat indeed.

manyboats said:

Some uplifting and positive stuff here.

Hope the test gets done Al and tanks for volunteering the specimen. Has that splice not been re-done every so often? I thought re-tying the splice was standard practice.

Click to expand...

That's right. It's been in use for 5 years without retie. It's the original splice from the rode I ordered from Defender in April 2010.

Does anyone know of a facility that can perform a tensile test on this segment of rode? Somewhere close to Sacramento would be nice, but I can ship it anywhere. Maybe someone on TF has a facility that can perform this test as a service to the community?

If there is one Al you should be able to find it here. http://www.thomasnet.com/northern-california/testing-services-84841402-1.html

If you have a friend at CalTrans I think their primary test facility is near Sacramento and they are capable of performing the test.

FlyWright said:

Does anyone know of a facility that can perform a tensile test on this segment of rode? Somewhere close to Sacramento would be nice, but I can ship it anywhere. Maybe someone on TF has a facility that can perform this test as a service to the community?

Click to expand...

Make sure it's soaking wet so it loses the appropriate amount of strength, which I think is somewhere around 15% to 20% of the manufacturers rated (dry) strength tests.

CPseudonym said:

If there is one Al you should be able to find it here. Testing Services in Northern California (CA) on ThomasNet.com

If you have a friend at CalTrans I think their primary test facility is near Sacramento and they are capable of performing the test.

Click to expand...

Thanks, Craig. I sent a request for info to Testing Engineers. The cost might be prohibitive, so I'm still interested in any TF members or Commercial Members who have access to facilities to conduct this simple tensile test.

West Marine did some testing to destruction on chain to nylon rode connections, and had failure at about 85% of line breaking strength. There was no consideration for abrasion or wear in their tests, and everything was brand new. I will be watching for the results on testing a "well used" splice. I used a shackle when pulling by hand, but with my new windlass I will have to learn the splice.

If the cost turns out to be prohibitive and nobody here has a facility let me know Al. We may be able to do a little crowd funding effort as it would be nice to see "real world" test results on quality used equipment.

Thanks for volunteering your splice.

I see "the splice", which is not much more than an eye splice or back splice, refered to regularity but no buzz on the weave into the chain itself. Weaving the lay of the line through 18 in or so of chain links. Seems like a better way to go, not so much friction chafe to deal with, thereby less redoing.

http://www.captainsheppard.com/Elongated_Splice/Rope_to_Chain_Splice.html

Cable and rope stress strain testing requires a special type of unit vs that used for metals. Reason being that rope stretches and when it breaks the rubber band effect damages testing equipment. Call up 1st chain supply and they can maybe tell you where to get it done.

The rule of thumb I've seen for decades is a proper splice and new rope will provide 75% of rated rope strength. Each use it will degrade as dirt/pebbles enter rope and abrades/starts breaking strands.

Mule said:

I see "the splice", which is not much more than an eye splice or back splice, refered to regularity but no buzz on the weave into the chain itself. Weaving the lay of the line through 18 in or so of chain links. Seems like a better way to go, not so much friction chafe to deal with, thereby less redoing.

Elongated Rope to Chain Splice

Click to expand...

That's not how it's done with 8-ply plait or on a windlass that handles line and chain. What good is a splice if the windlass can't handle it? If you want your windlass to function on both chain and line, don't splice it like Mule is recommending.

I have metal pulling equipment available.

So basically we have one step ahead, but what will we really know after we break it?

The comparison of the splice strength to that of the line is as much information as we could gain.

My opinion is that the value of a good visual inspection is not to be underestimated. Use the appropriate splice and look at it carefully. In my experience with boat lines there will be plenty of signs that is time to do something long before there is a failure. The flexibility of the line adjacent to the splice getting stiff would be another thing to keep an eye on.

If anyone really wants to proceed with this give me a shout.

Yes, but Eric, we anchor with a 5:1 to 7:1 scope rather than the 1.5:1 scope you keep trying to use. So there is very little chain in the "upper half" of our rode. Sometimes almost none.

SaltyDog said:

I have metal pulling equipment available.

So basically we have one step ahead, but what will we really know after we break it?

The comparison of the splice strength to that of the line is as much information as we could gain.

My opinion is that the value of a good visual inspection is not to be underestimated. Use the appropriate splice and look at it carefully. In my experience with boat lines there will be plenty of signs that is time to do something long before there is a failure. The flexibility of the line adjacent to the splice getting stiff would be another thing to keep an eye on.

If anyone really wants to proceed with this give me a shout.

Click to expand...

That's great, Salty Dog. Is it capable of measuring and recording the tensile strength on calibrated equipment?

Raised the splice issue with two cruisers (both circumnavigators) who have chain/rope rodes. Both used thimbles and schackles for safely. Now they are unusual as the chain/rope rode was a 2nd rode/anchor used for anchoring deep and they have a primary anchor with all chain rode. Got to hear stories of anchoring in 100 feet of water with 600 feet of line out.

FlyWright said:

That's not how it's done with 8-ply plait or on a windlass that handles line and chain. What good is a splice if the windlass can't handle it? If you want your windlass to function on both chain and line, don't splice it like Mule is recommending.

Click to expand...

=======================================

Just to be clear, I am not reccomending anything, especially since I'm looking for answers. I looked online and saw this weave method. It is paramount that my chain to rode flow through my wildcat. The weave looked as if there would not be small wear spot, that was the only benefit, otherwise I just as soon do a conventional splice. I did a search to see how to splice 8 plait and the site popped up.

I was a boatswain mate in the Navy, just after going from sail to steam. Spliced a lot of line. We did not use anything this small and we never went from chain to nylon rode and I do not remember seeing any 8 plait. I do not know if the wildcat will grip the chain-rode weave. Apparently you know, from experience or from some else's experience that the nylon will not allow the chain to be grabbed by the wildcat. If that what you are saying I would rather save the time and use a conventional splice? I did not see this addresses on the site.

So FW, you do have knowledge of the weave not being compatible?

Attached are directions for splicing 3-strand and 8-plait rope to chain, compliments of Maxwell.

I think today I will splice my brand new 8 plait the Fly Wright, Larry and Maxwell suggested way, if the weave method would work better then it would be so stated. I have a new 100 watt Maxwell. I will defer to another to reinvent the wheel....thanks for the redirection.

CPseudonym said:

If there is one Al you should be able to find it here. Testing Services in Northern California (CA) on ThomasNet.com

If you have a friend at CalTrans I think their primary test facility is near Sacramento and they are capable of performing the test.

Click to expand...

FlyWright said:

Thanks, Craig. I sent a request for info to Testing Engineers. The cost might be prohibitive, so I'm still interested in any TF members or Commercial Members who have access to facilities to conduct this simple tensile test.

Click to expand...

CPseudonym said:

If the cost turns out to be prohibitive and nobody here has a facility let me know Al. We may be able to do a little crowd funding effort as it would be nice to see "real world" test results on quality used equipment.

Thanks for volunteering your splice.

Click to expand...

I got a reply from Testing Engineers. I doubt even "crowd funding" would be sufficient to pursue this.

"Thank you for contacting us for your testing needs. We have performed similar tests in the past, and have a few questions to ensure testing performed meets your expectations.

Are you able to splice the rope onto itself to form a loop that we can use for testing?
Do you have a fixturing method in mind to ensure that the chain is axially loaded?

We anticipate a cost of at least $1,000 to machine fixtures and conduct the test. We also welcome you to come to our offices to speak about this project, to sort out how you envision testing this product."

I told him thanks for the reply but the cost was too high for a matter of curiosity. Still hoping we have a source 'in house' who could assist in our little experiment. Hopefully, Salty Dog will have the measuring equipment and recording capability required for the test.

Mule said:

I think today I will splice my brand new 8 plait the Fly Wright, Larry and Maxwell suggested way, if the weave method would work better then it would be so stated. I have a new 100 watt Maxwell..

Click to expand...

Is that a typo for 1000w, or maybe 100Amp ? My re-engined Muir is 1200w, motor was replaced with current model type.

Good eye Bruce, 1000 watt horzonal, I left out a 0.

I spent the afternoon splicing the chain to 8 plait 5/8.... That was a job, far tougher than standard 3 stran nylon or Sampson braid. I hate to even think about 12 plait.