CO detector question...

This is what they sell at Fisheries Supply

CDM4 Carbon Monoxide Detector - 2 Models - Xintex | Fisheries Supply

psneeld said:

That number may exist...but without enough other info to have any meaning.

All sorts of stats are tossed around ....try and make rational sense out of most of them without the original report wrapped around them.

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I beg to differ! Of course it has meaning to learn the actual number of "marine" deaths due to CO poisoning. Would be great too if the attributable factors of from where the CO originally emanated were broken out in the statistics.

IMHO... If in any location (boat, house, car... etc) we are to not keep CO producing equipment in good condition and to be sure there is adequate ventilation or correct exhaust flow-away so that the CO detector never needs to sound-off; we've not correctly done our job. That said, it is always a good idea to have a CO warning device just in case!

One scorching hot day as we approached our Tolly in covered dock we could hear a warning sound inside. Yup, it was our CO detector. No one was at our dock area, gentle breeze, and our boat had not been started for weeks. Once reset button was pushed the detector shut off and did not start again. Boat was cooking-hot inside. We opened all vent areas. Only thing I can figure was temperature activated the CO alarm... maybe fumes from overheated materials in Master Stateroom had given the CO a false reading?? We keep it in good condition and have not heard it before or since. This year we will get two new ones aboard.

I'm relatively new to diesels so this thread caught my interest.
First season w/ my Mainship I had both CO detectors give alarms which I attributed to out of date detectors and have not had any alarms since replacing w/ identical marine / RV type units.

From the searching & reading I've done:
to ksanders original point "Show me some documented deaths from CO that was emitted from a diesel source."
From a book I found : CARBON MONOXIDE POISONING EDITED BY DAVID G. PENNEY
The chapter Carbon Monoxide Dangers in the Marine Environment explores in depth the nationwide deaths due to gasoline propulsion & generator engines
"At this point (published 2008) , there are no poisonings known to have been associated with marine diesel-powered engines of either type"(propulsion or generator engines).

Another source (agreeably not marine related) is cited in "Diesel fumes do kill: a case of fatal carbon monoxide poisoning directly attributed to diesel fuel exhaust with a 10-year retrospective case and literature review*."
States: "Lastly, an extensive literature review produced no scientifically reported cases of fatal CO poisoning attributed to diesel fuel exhaust."

Another study of Myths / Facts: " There is Not Enough Carbon Monoxide In Diesel Exhaust To Kill" This study explores the executions, during the holocaust, by poison gas.
Cites - two scientific studies done by engineers show that it is possible for diesel engine exhaust to contain lethal amounts of carbon monoxide:
And Concludes: "Murdering people using diesel engine exhaust is not "idiotic" or "simply incredible" as Berg claims. A diesel engine can easily be mistuned to produce a lethal amount of carbon monoxide. Adjusting the fuel pump or blocking the air intake is not rocket science and does not require mechanical or engineering skills that were outside the capabilities of the SS technicians who ran the engines."

Bottom Line: I now agree the statistics do not support even a low level of hazard in the diesel marine environment.
Will I keep my detectors and make sure they are operational - yes - if for no other reason than peace of mind that I am also protected from CO from other sources - raft-ups w/ gassers, etc or for the one-in-a -million chance that air flow could somehow become restricted while running (engine or gen set).

Sorry Art, I can't give you any empirical data, but anecdotally I've got lots. I've carried personal multi-gas monitors for much of my working career. They keep getting better, smaller and cheaper BTW. The most common alarm I get is CO. The one I carry now is set to 25ppm, TWA 10hrs. Generally speaking, they are almost nuisance alarms as I am rarely in a single area for that length of exposure. If I am in a confined space however there is more cause for concern.

Back in my submarine days, high CO was common from the cooking on board as the catalyst burner couldn't always keep up with the food burner.

As far as boating goes, as a diesel guy, the apparent likelihood of CO poisoning remains low. As mentioned above, the only incident was not caused by me. But as I am in a relatively confined space and sleeping with family members, I remain cognizant of the risk. The consequences span from a slight headache to death.

Of course, you as a petrol guy have a higher risk, as the likelihood is higher. A slow cruise with a tailwind could bring on a headache.

Cheers,

Mike

Greetings,
Better to have at least "dirt" detectors than none at all. I can live with the false alarms.

RT Firefly said:

Greetings,
Better to have at least "dirt" detectors than none at all. I can live with the false alarms.

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Zactly!

Art said:

One scorching hot day as we approached our Tolly in covered dock we could hear a warning sound inside. Yup, it was our CO detector. No one was at our dock area, gentle breeze, and our boat had not been started for weeks. Once reset button was pushed the detector shut off and did not start again. Boat was cooking-hot inside. We opened all vent areas. Only thing I can figure was temperature activated the CO alarm... maybe fumes from overheated materials in Master Stateroom had given the CO a false reading?? We keep it in good condition and have not heard it before or since. This year we will get two new ones aboard.

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Yep. Hot plastic or paint can off-gas fumes that trigger certain sensors. Also drying paint. It can be a pain.

Wouldn't leave home without one though. I'm not overly concerned about the engine but there are other CO sources out there - any gas engine nearby, the galley stove, or heaters. Not that you southerners need to worry about having a a box with flames in it on board to keep you (and your plumbing) from freezing.

In the State of Washington your registration comes with a notice and sign that must be posted on all boats concerning the danger of CO and this sign is part of the CGAUX vessel safety check provided the examiner is informed and on his game. There is no requirement for an alarm SX but I think it is a good idea and I personally prefer the more sensitive unit. I rather see a couple of false alarms then somebody overwhelmed because they were in a place where the gas collected in a circulation pocket.

As with any occupational epidemiology, confounding factors abound. The search for CO/diesel/marine/deaths won't turn up much. Because, among other reasons, I suspect it doesn't happen much. But, I would not discount the possibility due to the known toxicity of the agent. There was a rather interesting study done in the case of a truck driver found dead in his rig at a rest stop in Kentucky. Turned out it was CO due to exhaust leaks - he had bedded down in his sleeper with engine running. The really interesting conclusion of the study that looked at a hundred or so similar cases over a ten year period was that many medical examiners had not conducted blood work as part of the post and had relied, instead, on visual cues. Short answer is a lot of misdiagnosis because the MEs were looking for lividity (that isn't always present) to indicate CO poisoning rather than the more definitive blood tests.

It's a low probability, I believe, but the risk is not trivial.

On another note, a commentor above was referring to the "test" function on the alarms. "Test" validates the signal processing circuitry - not the sensor. They do wear out, and probably faster in the temp extremes and humidity that boats present than in a conditioned environment. Unless you have access to cal gas, etc. the best bet is to replace them at regular intervals.

Ya know, and of course...


There is much good reason to have CO detector aboard a boat... however, its useful signal is only needed for "if" / "when" CO accumulates inside living/working/sleeping areas (especially enclosed area with no clean-air transfer).


So... not to diminish the good of these detectors, but, why would captain of a "normal-sized" pleasure craft allow things to happen that places CO concentration into danger levels?? For over 100 years there were boats with no CO detector. For decades my family and all we knew had boats with no detector.


The premises we operated under, being in full knowledge of CO poisoning:


- Never sleep with any engine running or propane stove burning
- Always have at least some way for clean-air to enter confined areas and for the air inside to exit so the air is consistently refreshed
- If tailgate exhaust draft happens while running either close off rear openings in salon (if equipped) and open front openings, or change speed, or change course


The simplicity of not having CO accumuate an area of a moderate sized pleasure boat is not rocket science.


That said... I do appreciate CO detectors and keep them in good condition. Ain't technology great!

Read the USCG reports on CO deaths.

A large number of maritime deaths have been reclassified as CO poisoning. Thus their big campaign several years ago. True that the majority were from knuckleheaded things like "teak surfing" or the weird ones with the houseboats where swimmers came up into a generator exhaust void under lake houseboats.

But then the weird ones get you too....like the lady that went to sleep in the aft cabin and all they could figure was CO traveled along the hull from the genset exhaust, came in the aft head sink drain and slowly filled the cabin while underway....now that is a stretch and not the captains fault...but possible. There are things besides detectors that help...like no sleeping without being checked on...but come now...how many balls do we juggle?

Plus...ever been in a tight slip with canvas up on a gasser?... or just next to one?When I worked for Sea Ray...those installed detectors would sound off within minutes of starting the engines some days. Not false alarms either....

Captains fault? Sure...why not....just pray that philosophy doesn't bite you if one of those one in a million ones get you.....

One of the reasons that I got one (besides the fact I was told to get one or lose my insurance) is that when at a dock, most if not all gas engine boats warm up at the dock before departing. Sometimes they run for 15 to 20 minutes (or more) and if they are within a few slips, you are getting doused in CO. And for most of that time they are running cold.
Then there's the dock queeners who fire up once a week and run for 15 minutes.
So there's a lot of gas engine idle time going on around the dock.

jleonard said:

One of the reasons that I got one (besides the fact I was told to get one or lose my insurance) is that when at a dock, most if not all gas engine boats warm up at the dock before departing. Sometimes they run for 15 to 20 minutes (or more) and if they are within a few slips, you are getting doused in CO. And for most of that time they are running cold.
Then there's the dock queeners who fire up once a week and run for 15 minutes.
So there's a lot of gas engine idle time going on around the dock.

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All good reasons. How often does your CO detector sound off?

If it does sound alarm because of others running engine(s) at your dock what do you do, leave the area or ask them to shut-down or pull-out of slip?

ksanders said:

We have diesel and no propane.

We have CO and smoke detectors. These were purchases at Home Depot, just like the ones at my dirt house.

If you do a search you will find it very difficult to locate a confirmed case of a CO poisoning death from diesel.

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Kevin,

The only case I know was in Alaska. I think they were coming back to Valdez.
I think no one died, but it was just luck and they were in hospital for a while.

Wxx3 said:

Kevin,

The only case I know was in Alaska. I think they were coming back to Valdez.
I think no one died, but it was just luck and they were in hospital for a while.

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Thanks Richard!

Even though the risk from my boat of CO is minimal to none, CO detectors are part of most smoke detectors sold now days.

So it was easy, buy a bunch of smoke detectors and get CO detectors to boot!

ksanders said:

Thanks Richard!

Even though the risk from my boat of CO is minimal to none, CO detectors are part of most smoke detectors sold now days.

So it was easy, buy a bunch of smoke detectors and get CO detectors to boot!

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what? No canaries?

I think y'all are splitting hairs here and getting a bit "semantical". Diesel, technically, has enough CO to kill you. But I think you have to concentrate and make a very large effort to make that happen....ie wrap your lips around the exhaust pipe or pump diesel exhaust directly into a closed space for a long time. Other than that, you are basically safe.

But, I think this needs to be brought up to people who are in the market for their first "bigger" boat. The threat of CO poisoning is probably one of THE BIGGEST advantages of going with a diesel powered boat(explosion hazard as well). With all due respect to our gas powered brethren, there is no way on earth I would sleep well at night with a gasoline powered generator running in the bilge. I just wouldn't. End of story.

One other thing....Most of the marine type CO detectors will be alarmed by battery gas. If your wet cell batteries are in not that great of shape, it can set off your detectors.... my Mainship used to do that until the batteries were replaced.

Baker said:

I think y'all are splitting hairs here and getting a bit "semantical". Diesel, technically, has enough CO to kill you. But I think you have to concentrate and make a very large effort to make that happen....ie wrap your lips around the exhaust pipe or pump diesel exhaust directly into a closed space for a long time. Other than that, you are basically safe.

But, I think this needs to be brought up to people who are in the market for their first "bigger" boat. The threat of CO poisoning is probably one of THE BIGGEST advantages of going with a diesel powered boat(explosion hazard as well). With all due respect to our gas powered brethren, there is no way on earth I would sleep well at night with a gasoline powered generator running in the bilge. I just wouldn't. End of story.

One other thing....Most of the marine type CO detectors will be alarmed by battery gas. If your wet cell batteries are in not that great of shape, it can set off your detectors.... my Mainship used to do that until the batteries were replaced.

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Happened to me last spring...woke me up at 0300....groggy....took me a minute to remember some work with the battery charger.

Opened up the engine hatch and reached in to feel the batteries. One 8D was crackling and hissing so out on the dock it went.

why doesn't that crap happen at 1500 instead?

psneeld said:

Happened to me last spring...woke me up at 0300....groggy....took me a minute to remember some work with the battery charger.

Opened up the engine hatch and reached in to feel the batteries. One 8D was crackling and hissing so out on the dock it went.

why doesn't that crap happen at 1500 instead?

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The same reason why your smoke detectors at your dirt house start chirping at 3am!!!!....and then you have to go on a "listening adventure" to determine which is the offending one.....gawd that pisses me off!!!!! The funny thing is...is that the capacitance is such that in those detectors, they are AC powered and DC powered. I have unplugged them and taken the battery out and it was still chirping.....this after being woke up at 3 am and taking 10 minutes for my sample journey around a house with tile floors echoing every chirp... You think you have the damn thing neutralized and it chirps AGAIN!!!!.....with no power source!!!!!!! I almost lost it and threw it against the wall!!! I know now....

Wxx3 said:

Kevin,

The only case I know was in Alaska. I think they were coming back to Valdez.
I think no one died, but it was just luck and they were in hospital for a while.

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From the engine?

CO poisoning has been a serious problem in B.C. over the years on small commercial fish boats. I've never seen a case that wasn't associated with someone trying to keep warm in a closed cabin with a catalytic heater, faulty stove, or gas engine.

OTOH I haven't done an extensive literature search on the subject. Could be, as someone alluded to above, that no one is looking closely.

Art said:

All good reasons. How often does your CO detector sound off?

If it does sound alarm because of others running engine(s) at your dock what do you do, leave the area or ask them to shut-down or pull-out of slip?

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It hasn't gone off yet, but I haven't had a detector for very long.
And YES I would ask them to leave or shut down. Maybe "ask" is not the correct word.

jleonard said:

It hasn't gone off yet, but I haven't had a detector for very long.
And YES I would ask them to leave or shut down. Maybe "ask" is not the correct word.

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This plays well with your signature... more than one meaning to a phrase!

Attitude Adjustment
40 Albin
Mystic,Ct

In our insurance survey done this season, we were given an A item to address - replacing our cheapo CO detectors. "A" items were required by the insurance company to "fix."

The surveyor quoted some ABYC standards and I had to comply by buying Xintex wired in detectors. They were about $99 on Amazon. I checked out the standard and there's no wiggle room in it. They have to be wired inand meet some NFPA and other specific standards - some marine ones. None of the Walmart ones meet it - I checked.

I've been the EMT on CO ambulance calls. It isn't pretty and is quite dangerous. The risk of injury is probably a lot higher by NOT wearing a dinghy kill switch which few of us wear, but the insurance companies are going to make us all comply with these CO standards out there. Having a guest die onboard due to CO is probably an expensive claim for an insurance company to pay out.

ABYC Standard A-24 2008 (I don't have 2014) recommends CO detectors on any boat with accommodation spaces and gasoline powered engines or generators.

NFPA 302 13.1 is more specific A carbon monoxide detection system shall be installed on all boats with an enclosed accommodation compartment(s) and a gasoline generator set, or an inboard gasoline propulsion engine.

Northern Spy said:

ABYC Standard A-24 2008 (I don't have 2014) recommends CO detectors on any boat with accommodation spaces and gasoline powered engines or generators.

NFPA 302 13.1 is more specific A carbon monoxide detection system shall be installed on all boats with an enclosed accommodation compartment(s) and a gasoline generator set, or an inboard gasoline propulsion engine.

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Hmmmmm, neither of those would seem to apply to our diesel powered vessel since we do not have a gasoline powered gen set or engines.

Marty.....................

MartySchwartz said:

Hmmmmm, neither of those would seem to apply to our diesel powered vessel since we do not have a gasoline powered gen set or engines.

Marty.....................

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Except there is a goofy train of thought with some types that if you have something...it needs to comply...even though you aren't required to have it in the first place.

Which makes sense to a point... but in the case of CO detectors...good enough for a mansion....good enough for my boat.

I spent many years working in and around underground mines. With front end loaders and diesel trucks, lots of external ventilation was required to keep CO and NOx levels below threshold levels. If gas levels were too high, or more common it would get too hot, we'd stop work in that area and move somewhere else.

There are charts showing CO and NOx levels vs time. That is how we managed the UP operations.

psneeld said:

Except there is a goofy train of thought with some types that if you have something...it needs to comply...even though you aren't required to have it in the first place.

Which makes sense to a point... but in the case of CO detectors...good enough for a mansion....good enough for my boat.

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Don't get me wrong, I have 'em. In fact I replaced both of mine yesterday. While I am not overly concerned with producing CO, I have experienced others sharing theirs often enough that I want to have the monitors around. My point is that if that is truly what the ABYC and NFPA standards state then insisting I comply with that standard, just to comply, on my boat is nonsense.

Anyone have access to the current standards? Or is 2008 the last time they were updated?

Marty..................

ABYC A-24 was updated in May 2014.

Northern Spy said:

ABYC A-24 was updated in May 2014.

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Anyone have a copy?