WHY are anchors and engines so controversial?

The ongoing thread about anchor rode got me wondiering what it is about anchors, rode, and the number of engines that make these topics so controversial?

What is it about those three things in particular that can generate a 600-post thread?

I don't see it happen on any other topic outside of OTDE. For example, I strongly prefer Icom radios and Furuno radar over the other brands. But when I see a post from someone extolling the virtues of Standard Horizon or Raymarine, I have no urge to leap in and defend Icom and Furuno.

Or how about rope? Now there's something that every one of us deals with in important ways every time we take our boats out. But I don't see impassioned exchanges over the virtues of New England Rope vs.Samson rope (made in Washington and our personal preference).

So why do we shrug off opposing opinions about electronics, which posess WAY more aspects and features to like or dislike, or rope, the quality and properties of which I assume are greatly affected by how and where it's made, but we leap to our keyboards if someone says a bad word about our favorite lump of pointy metal or disses the number of engines our boat happened to come with?

Marin said:

The ongoing thread about anchor rode got me wondiering what it is about anchors, rode, and the number of engines that make these topics so controversial?

What is it about those three things in particular that can generate a 600-post thread?

I don't see it happen on any other topic outside of OTDE. For example, I strongly prefer Icom radios and Furuno radar over the other brands. But when I see a post from someone extolling the virtues of Standard Horizon or Raymarine, I have no urge to leap in and defend Icom and Furuno.

Or how about rope? Now there's something that every one of us deals with in important ways every time we take our boats out. But I don't see impassioned exchanges over the virtues of New England Rope vs.Samson rope (made in Washington and our personal preference).

So why do we shrug off opposing opinions about electronics, which posess WAY more aspects and features to like or dislike, or rope, the quality and properties of which I assume are greatly affected by how and where it's made, but we leap to our keyboards if someone says a bad word about our favorite lump of pointy metal or disses the number of engines our boat happened to come with?

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Excellent question Marin, and one I have often pondered myself. In the end I came down to the fact that it is because, (assuming the hull is intact and floating), they are items which are just so fundamental to the boat's operation. That is they are the bits that make it go…and the bits that make it stop.

You can't get much more functionally basic than that. Whereas all the other bits and pieces are just support items, that either make life more convenient, easier, or comfortable...or are even just cosmetic...or sometimes just because they are neat gadgets to have. The link being ones moving and stopping do not rely on them. If either of those items fail however, one's life on the water becomes very tense..!

That's my take on it anyway.

Marin said:

What is it about those three things in particular that can generate a 600-post thread?

Click to expand...

I'll let you know in about 597 posts.

Marin said:

The ongoing thread about anchor rode got me wondering what it is about anchors, rode, and the number of engines that make these topics so controversial?
What is it about those three things in particular that can generate a 600-post thread?

Click to expand...

I agree, it is odd. Doubtless different ropes have different qualities, and it has to be important.
There is an inter-relationship, some engines might make a a good anchor. But then, which one...

Marin,

I don't think those topics are very controversial at all.

Perhaps you should survey how many 'active' users there are on TF, compare that with what percentage of those get caught up in these debates, then look to see who tends to be the most set in their ways or long winded. The answer might surprise you

Simple, Man (most of us anyway) likes to communicate. Some topics are easy to inter relate on such as weather and sports. If you're a golfer it is balls, clubs, Tiger and courses that get a big discussion going. ETC

If one is a trawlerite it is our puny engines, ccs per minute of fuel burn and anchors that 100% of us own and we all have in common.

Ever note how many large yacht or sailboat owners populate this forum?

Now, about your Rocna Marin, when will it become your next doorstop and you buy a sexy Sarca?

I do have a serious question - our Nobeltec is on Windows XP so what to choose - Coastal Explorer or Trident? CE will not interface with our NN3s whereas Trident will.

MurrayM said:

Marin,

Perhaps you should survey how many 'active' users there are on TF, compare that with what percentage of those get caught up in these debates, then look to see who tends to be the most set in their ways or long winded. The answer might surprise you

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I agree that these kinds of "discussions" tend to attract certain types of people. From what I read, they tend to be outspoken, not shy to speak up, indepenent, and very opinionated about all sorts of things, not just anchors and engines. They also--- again from what I read here--- tend to have had great deal of "life" experience for want of a better expression. From Art to Eric to psneeld to Carl to Don to Tom (Sunchaser) and others, they've all done or are doing a hell of a lot of different things very successfully in each of their lives, which I suspect is what gives them the confidence to express their opinons. A thicker skin, if you will.

These discussions on these topics are not limited to Trawler Forum. I hear them going on in our boating club, on the docks sometimes, and when I used to read them, on other forums like Trawlers & Trawlering.

So I think your take on what kind of people get into these discussions is correct.

But what I'm curious about is what it is about these three topics that prompts people who are so inclined to get so wrapped up in discussing them? Why anchors and engines and not radios and rope?

Actually I think the answer is quite simple.
Engines for most people are difficult to change (repower or buy a new boat). Most wouldn't want to admit to themselves or others that they made a bad choice and are stuck with it. So they feel the need to defend what they have or their choice.

Anchors are similar.
Most people who argue about anchors, have changed at least once. Only thing worse than buying the boat with what turns out to be a bad anchor, is doing research and buying another bad anchor. Can't defend the second choice by claiming it came with the boat. So we instead defend our choice. Finally, I think we can all admit that our anchor may fail to hold at some point, so we have to make excuses, not the anchor and certainly not my technique. If they worked every time, there wouldn't be anything to argue over.

And this is why we don't argue over rope.
Rope works every time. Tied the boat up in the slip and left. It was still there when I returned. It works; nothing to argue about. If it's not there when you return, probably not a design flaw in the rope.

Ted

sunchaser said:

I do have a serious question - our Nobeltec is on Windows XP so what to choose - Coastal Explorer or Trident? CE will not interface with our NN3s whereas Trident will.

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I would take a look at Maxsea too, basically trident but from what I've been told more stable. Trident is defiantly more feature packed though. Depends on the compromise you want to make. I wouldn't even consider CE since you have NN3D equipment and Nobletec/Maxsea interfaces with it beautifully. Plus it's essentially another plotter you can display radar or chart on. IMO, of course.

sunchaser said:

Now, about your Rocna Marin, when will it become your next doorstop and you buy a sexy Sarca?.

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See, that is such a staggeringly remote possibility it would be far more interesting to get into the pros and cons of the impending burnout of the sun.

On the other hand, we did change rope brands when we found that Samson was far more fray resistant that New England Rope.....

All anchors are great, until they are not. I think that is the crux of most of the disagreements. Most people argue in favour of the anchor that hasn't yet disappointed them.

As we are often reminded by the mods...when a poster is repeating the same thing over and over again....it probably time to stop...but it does rack up the posts till one or the other give up.

Many times a "half truth" is stated and when rebuked as a half truth...often the response is well "not in my half world"......well that is usually good for 30 or so posts. In the engine world...that would be the statement...."2 engines have 2 the failure rate than one". Holy mackeral....that statement could generate a 1000 page manifesto alone.

So ....much like a trial with lawyers that only have half the facts available....who knows where the thread may wind up. With two different discussions simultaneously occurring about the same topic but with totally different parameters driving the passions being expressed/defended....600 post threads I would think would be even more common with more topics.

Standby...looks like filter systems are on the rise to rival anchors and engine systems.

O C Diver said:

Most wouldn't want to admit to themselves or others that they made a bad choice and are stuck with it. So they feel the need to defend what they have or their choice.

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BINGO!

People desperately want to believe that they made the one, absolute BEST choice possible. That means that they have to tell everyone who chose differently that they made the WRONG choice. It's all about defending their overly-sensitive ego.

With engines and anchors, these are two topics where there is a little factual information, but not enough to definitively answer the question so that opinions abound. So endless discussion ensues. Also we all know at least a little about these two unlike VHF radios where we know little.

So let the game roll on!

David

Greetings,
Mr. dd and Mr. OCD. Good points BUT it could also be one-upmanship...

Except for outboarders most boats are fitted with what the boat assembler engine choice , not the owner.

Low cost and what the advertising folks think and low cost are the main considerations.

Thats why so many displacement boats have oversized engines or Volvo power.

djmarchand said:

With engines and anchors, these are two topics where there is a little factual information, but not enough to definitively answer the question so that opinions abound. So endless discussion ensues. Also we all know at least a little about these two unlike VHF radios where we know little.

So let the game roll on!

David

Click to expand...

Yes. David and OC Diver have hit it pretty much right on.

I think the real conclusion is that there is no significant difference, thus the debate.

VHF radios on the other hand, are easy to compare and thus no debate.

Lastly, many don't know the difference between opinion and fact, or make a conclusion based on a false premise.

Wxx3 said:

Lastly, many don't know the difference between opinion and fact

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Is that statement opinion or fact? Or as taught in law school argue that facts counter to your position are just unsubstantiated statements.

I think the most hotly debated topics are matters of opinion and perception rather than matters of fact. Engine oil and fuel additives, for example. Their effectiveness is nearly impossible to prove, yet people will debate and defend until they are blue in the face. Same with different micron sized fuel filters. Same with anchors. Same with single vs twin.

All these topics have little to no provable right answer. They are either un-provable (if that a word?), or a matter of personal opinion, judgement, or belief.

It's the difference between "This, I believe" and "This, I know". We cling to our beliefs, and often shun knowledge. And the more "magical" the belief, the more we cling to it. Rope isn't very magical, so we don't get hung up on it (not pun intended). But an anchor that lurks in the hidden depths of the murky water and determines our fate on a stormy night.... well, what's more magical than that? Humans are curious creatures, for sure. That I believe. Or do I know it? OK, now I'm confused.

Scott wrote;
"So ....much like a trial with lawyers that only have half the facts available....who knows where the thread may wind up."
Grey area. No one knows and everybody knows that so anybody can jump in and float yet another plausible theory and possibly "win the lottery" as being right.


And denveredverdOn wrote;
"Originally Posted by O C Diver Most wouldn't want to admit to themselves or others that they made a bad choice and are stuck with it. So they feel the need to defend what they have or their choice."

Yes indeed and whose to say they are wrong. And those that do can whip up a theory that is fully equipped w plausible correctness.


Then Wxx3 wrote;
"I think the real conclusion is that there is no significant difference, thus the debate."

That I disagree w completely. The difference is clear for all to see and that difference is an invitation to jump in. Just tell Marin there's little difference between a Rocna and a Bruce .......

But for me the reason is that anchor talk is just plain interesting. I don't post as much on other threads as I don't find them interesting. As a great example there's a thread titled "My Pilot House Housecleaning" running on the trawler discussions board now. Or another that just says "GenSet". Is he buying one? His just quit? Who knows from the thread title? Just not motivated to click on. I'm not the kind of TF member that looks at all the threads ... and wonder how many do actually.

You could also say anchor talk is popular because it has "possibilities". And that relates to personalities of a certain type .. that I belong to. Those that like things decided are terribly frustrated by anchor talk as conclusions and clear decisions are rarely found. People like myself are attracted to that. There will always be "options" that are "debatable". This relates well to the singe v/s twin talk too as everyone knows it will never be decided. And those that like things undecided will be there .. like me. And those that like things decided will be posting the dead horse thing.

djmarchand wrote:
"With engines and anchors, these are two topics where there is a little factual information, but not enough to definitively answer the question so that opinions abound. So endless discussion ensues."

David rarely misses the nail.

I learned about this when in school.

Cognitive dissonance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

<snip>
Free-choice paradigm

In a different type of experiment conducted by Jack Brehm, 225 female students rated a series of common appliances and were then allowed to choose one of two appliances to take home as a gift. A second round of ratings showed that the participants increased their ratings of the item they chose, and lowered their ratings of the rejected item.

<snip/>

Nobody wants to hear what they have is inferior. Therefore, they will fight back. But remember: Opinions are like buttholes, everyone has one and most stink!

Marin said:

...what it is about anchors, rode, and the number of engines that make these topics so controversial?

Click to expand...

So it's obvious that OPINIONS abound and that's part of it... but even for those that deal with "facts" there is a lot of variation and controversy...
Just pick up multiple anchor test reports and see how much consistency there is - or isn't. Even the reports cite difficulties making apples to apples comparisons and admit that test conditions do not necessarily represent real life. Further situations & conditions vary - so bottom line there is no one "best choice" for all situations, conditions & uses.

A few excerpts from widely distributed reports...

1) "Anchor tests are notoriously subjective. There are so many variables: windshifts, waves, currents, different seabed conditions, different cable or chain configurations, and varying scope. "

"2) One of the problems with anchor tests is that they don’t represent the real world.

3) We are certainly getting closer to an anchor which will cope with all types of seabed

My opinion is that the above supports that we experience different conditions, situations and have different expectations of our anchors - and that there is no one "best" choice that excels at all. How many of us - that maybe are even the strongest proponents of our anchor choice - carry more than one anchor and - I'd be willing to bet - many / most are different designs that serve different purposes very well. I don't think I've seen many / any boats w/ two or more of the same design & size anchor being carried.

My second point - many of the alternatives tested provide similar good test results - so there is less real difference if you are using one of the top performers. (7 of the 14 anchors tested - 50%- in one of the largest tests produced similar good results.

Third point - designs continue to evolve possibly getting closer to the holly grail of best in all conditions, situations, etc. How many of us are willing to shell out significant $ to get the latest "best" anchor design when what we have works well - even if not ideal in ALL situations.

In the end... if you are completely satisfied with your anchor - it is your best choice - why invest more $ to change if it ain't broke!

I would like to think I can evaluate things objectively since I do that sometime for a living, but when it comes to things I buy (and spend a lot of money on), I sometimes lose objectivity. I would never buy another Ford pickup because the only one I have ever bought was a dog. On the other hand, I have done will with 3 Chevy's and 3 Toyotas. On outboards, I have done well with Honda's and Yamaha's, but you would have to give me an Evinrude ETEC before I would ever use another one.

It's not that Fords and ETEC's are bad, it's just that one bad experience tends to sour us on a product. When we buy something that works we tend to be loyal to that product, when we buy something that doesn't work, we run as far away from it as we can. That's why you won't see me in a Ford or Evinrude dealer, if they want to win me back, they are going to have to work for it.

By the way, I like my Mantus anchor. I have been trying to give away the CQR it replaced and it's still sitting on the dock.

Tom

Actually I think the answer is quite simple.
Engines for most people are difficult to change (repower or buy a new boat). Most wouldn't want to admit to themselves or others that they made a bad choice and are stuck with it. So they feel the need to defend what they have or their choice.

Click to expand...

Ding, ding, we have a winner. Only took eight posts to get to it.


All these discussions are about defending a personal choice that is very important to the owner but when in use make little difference in suitability for most users.


Many of could happily cruise any boat with any equipment in any of our cruising areas without getting worked up about any of these issues.

bayview do you mean to say that Marin would be strongly defending single screw trawlers if he had bought one?

Braided dock lines are ghey.

manyboats said:

bayview do you mean to say that Marin would be strongly defending single screw trawlers if he had bought one?

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It's certainly possible. I agree with the basic "defend what you chose" concept. We chartered a single and had nothing against it. One factor in the mix in my case is that I really enjoy operating equipment and the more complex the better. Had we bought a single I'm sure we would have been happy with it, but I wonder how long it would have been until we moved to a twin just so I could have a more complex "machine" to run?

There have been some interesting responses in this thread. One notion that intrigued me regarding anchors is that because an anchor does its job out of sight, we pretty much have to take it in faith that the design we chose is the best one. And once you add faith to the mix, people start having very strong feelings about the validity of their faith and react passionately to challenges or threats to that faith.

At the extreme end of this we have ISIS, the IRA, and the Inquisition. At the mild end we have anchors and engines.

Marin,
Of the 5 or 6 anchors I have now none have dragged or failed in any respect that I can remember. The 16lb Claw that I had on our trip north in the Albin in 03 seemed to break loose at times while setting so I set it hard and It held but the weather was very mild that year.
The XYZ that I modified ... I was expecting it to set only occasionally but it set every time ... probably 8 to 10 times. The tip of the fluke is 4" wide. But it even worked.