Dual Racors

Baker said:

I think it is marine age more than anything. 13 years is a long time in the marine environment.

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I believe they are assembled in the same manner as the heat exchanger with soldered joints. Without an anode, the solder becomes the sacrificial element. This is the same for a gear cooler without a pencil zinc. A gear cooler with a pencil zinc will last 2 or 3 times as long as one without.

Ted

Baker said:

I never could have lived through the above scenario without sight bowls!!! And it is a very important part of my preflight scan of the engine room.....now!!!

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John

In your real work you burn tens of thousands of gallons of jet fuel per month. Where are the Racors sight bowls on the planes? In the private aircraft world where are the Racors. They certainly are not on the aircraft.

Airport fuel farms use a system such as I posted on Feb 1 to deal with water and crud. Incoming fuel is sampled to monitor and hopefully prevent dirty fuel from arriving in the first place.

sunchaser said:

Ted

If your ESI is working properly, where does the water come from that you see in your engine filter loop?

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Not sure what ESI is short for?

I don't think anyone intentionally puts water in their fuel tanks. But water in fuel seems to be one of the most common problems in boating. While I do everything possible to insure there is no chance that water will enter the fuel tanks though the filler cap, air vents, and engine fuel cooler (new engine doesn't have one ), it's still possible to get a bad load of fuel. Having a sensor that triggers an alarm is a nice warning device, I'd rather not wait for the water to reach critical mass, and depend on an alarm that may not sound if the sensor is coated with none conductive impurities.

Ted

eyschulman said:

There are too many dam posts here for me to read all sooo. What ever you use consider the wisdom(not mine) of using a screw on mud filter with a large capacity, a closed loop OB bulb priming SX, and vacuum gauges on the mud filter. All this installed prior to any other filtration. If you don't know what I am talking about another learning exercise opportunity. Go to Seaboard Marine and to Tony's tips and read about filtration Tony's way. The white vertical units with gauges on top are screw on the first in line the high capacity mud filter the second 10 mic this is before the two motor mounted units. This is common rail and needs good filtration. The closed loop prime SX is also visible.

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You've got the right system for common rail. Assuming your filters are the coalescing type, your vacuum should build up if water is present. If you're wanting to check for water in your tanks there are ways to do it before your filters would see it.

As oft mentioned here, water going to engines is preventable. Having recently crawled and walked around the ERs of three very large yachts, fuel testing, spin ons, Alfa Lavals, and Racors are all in use.

On our toy boats some silly systems are in use and tolerated, largely due to very low fuel usage - I'm one. The commercial guys using sequential fuel filtration that Tony supports are a pretty good benchmark for common rail being used in this century. Your new vessel is in this category. You do not want engine fuel filtering (different than fuel cleaning) some of us have, good on ya!

Xsbank said:

I posted a bit of a blurb about a friend in the Sea of Cortez whose engine stopped at sea due to fuel he picked up in Santa Barbara...

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In the old days in Mexico there were often two on shore fuel tanks, one for locals and one for you guessed it.

O C Diver said:

Not sure what ESI is short for?

But water in fuel seems to be one of the most common problems in boating.

Ted

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ESI is a fuel polishing system. One used by many non recreational types too.

Knock on wood, since I started boating and buying fuel, no fuel issues with water yet. Except in Mexico where the water hose was going into the on shore fuel tanks.

I have done everything I can think of to prevent water from getting into my fuel including polishing the fuel before it goes into the tank that the engine draws off of. Maybe some good intentioned gest will take it upon themselves to wash my boat and manage to get some water down the tank vents. I don't know how it will get there, but I'm sure sooner or later there will be something in the the Racor bowl for me to ponder the origin of. And so each morning when I do my pre start fluids check, I'll shine my led light into the Racor bowl for some peace of mind.

Ted

Aircraft have fuel heaters and a system called "motive flow" to continuously circulate the fuel and keep water in suspension. There is always some water in diesel, comes direct from the refinery, but if it is kept in suspension it is just "burned."

Just want to say that I am not against Racors with see through bowls, but even with that system I see only good by putting a high capacity spin on mud filter with vac gauge in front of the racor. The spin ons have petcock at bottom for sampling(for water) and as mentioned the vac gauge even with motor not running with a seconded captive indicator needle will tell you when water is present since it causes vacuum pressure to go up. The beauty of spin -ons which are loved by commercial guys with dirty tanks is they can have high capacity for water and crud and be changed out fast add the closed loop OB bulb priming system(no cans of fuel needed) and you have a nice practical set up. It seems that any new or divergent ideas have to survive the impact of the comfort of the established ways. With this system you don't have to give up your sight bowl you keep it and help it do its job.

I still don't see how changing a spin on is faster or easier. It is certainly messier. Crack it loose and a few ounces are coming out. Then easy to spill more while handling the topped up filter. Then screw on new one. Going to prime that with the squeeze bulb? Where does the air go? Either need to fill it first, or vent while priming.

To change my racor, crack lid loose. Pump primer a few times on engine to draw fuel level down half inch. Swap out element, put lid back on. A few drips easy to manage. No need to reprime.

And adding a mud filter before a racor? I don't see the logic in that.

And that bowl is essential to me. Do an engine room check, if it is clear red, all's good. Water is obvious as it is NOT red.

I can change a Racor in about a minute with little mess and fully primed with clean fuel from manifold squeeze bulb fed by the other racor. Granted...draining would take longer because I haven't set up for draining yet....but with tubing and a drain cup...I think it would only take as long as it takes for the bowl to drain. It could be draining while you change the element.

I wonder how fast I could do it if I practiced and raced a spin on guy....

psneeld said:

I wonder how fast I could do it if I practiced and raced a spin on guy....

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Get a shitload of water in your fuel and you will get very good at it!!! It took about 150 hours before my Racor bowl stopped getting water in it. The fuel polisher service(for lack of a better term) can only get so much water out. There is significant residual. I would have to stop in the middle of a passage just to empty the bowl and change the filter....less than 5 minutes.

I will repeat....put yourself in my situation and then tell me how NOT having sight bowls is an advantage???????????? I very likely would have messed some things up AGAIN had I not had a "continuous pulse" on what was going on with my fuel.

sunchaser said:

John

In your real work you burn tens of thousands of gallons of jet fuel per month. Where are the Racors sight bowls on the planes? In the private aircraft world where are the Racors. They certainly are not on the aircraft.

Airport fuel farms use a system such as I posted on Feb 1 to deal with water and crud. Incoming fuel is sampled to monitor and hopefully prevent dirty fuel from arriving in the first place.

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A turbine engine is quite tolerant of water in the fuel. The biggest threat is that water freezing and blocking a filter(in which there is a bypass and still no engine stoppage). Like mentioned above, there are fuel heaters to keep water from freezing. The fuel is also treated(trade name Prist) to keep water from freezing in the fuel.

In smaller piston aircraft, while there are no sight bowls installed, you carry one during your preflight and you sample the fuel and inspect it right in your hand while holding it to the light. It is extremely easy to do this and quite effective as the sample place in the tank is purposely the lowest part of the tank. BUT, water still gets in fuel and causes engine stoppage likely due to improper vigilance during preflight.

As this relates to boats with spin ons???.....I would still much rather use my eyeballs to check the quality of my fuel than actually have to climb in and sample the fuel with a petcock and a sampling receptacle. Now if I had a boat with a stand up engine room where I am just walking around a taking a sample...it might be different. IOW, proper vigilance is significantly easier with a sight bowl. And maintenance that is easier is maintenance that is more likely to happen!!!!

As far as the condition of the fuel in the tank???....that really isn't the point....until it gets to the filter system....which a sight bowl will tell you. A spin on will not(until you take a sample). We could say a sight bowl has a passive system to alert you to fuel condition. A spin on is an intrusive system....only as effective as the motivation of the owner/operator.

Baker said:

.....

proper vigilance is significantly easier with a sight bowl. And maintenance that is easier is maintenance that is more likely to happen!!!!

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I have to agree!! I have just replaced injector nozzles and had my injector pump reconditioned in the last 2 weeks due to water in the fuel. Not a cheap exercise or a lesson that I want to learn again. Cost aside, it happened during one of the best summers we have had in years and I lost 2 weeks of boating time and that was extremely frustrating. The only saving grace was that the engine stopped while we were back in port and I therefore did no need an expesive tow back in.

Our primary griffin filter (equivalent to Racor) was originally located in really hard place to inspect on a regular basis, as it required all floor coverings (3 layers) and then the floor panels to be lifted. As part of the repairs, I have now had the filter moved to a much more accessible position so that the bowl can be checked easily and drained if necessary without all of the previous hassles.

MikeD said:

I have to agree!! I have just replaced injector nozzles and had my injector pump reconditioned in the last 2 weeks due to water in the fuel. Not a cheap exercise or a lesson that I want to learn again. Cost aside, it happened during one of the best summers we have had in years and I lost 2 weeks of boating time and that was extremely frustrating. The only saving grace was that the engine stopped while we were back in port and I therefore did no need an expesive tow back in.

Our primary griffin filter (equivalent to Racor) was originally located in really hard place to inspect on a regular basis, as it required all floor coverings (3 layers) and then the floor panels to be lifted. As part of the repairs, I have now had the filter moved to a much more accessible position so that the bowl can be checked easily and drained if necessary without all of the previous hassles.

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How did the water get into the fuel???? My water incident trashed two injectors so I went ahead and replaced all of the injectors on that side.

Baker said:

How did the water get into the fuel???? My water incident trashed two injectors so I went ahead and replaced all of the injectors on that side.

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We believe that the water was due to condensation and then stirred up due to some rough water boating.

I am guilty of leaving the tanks half full last winter. This is another practice that I will change, i.e. I will now refuel when I return to port to minimise the risk of condensation, particularly when the boat may not going to be be used for a period.

psneeld said:

I can change a Racor in about a minute with little mess and fully primed with clean fuel from manifold squeeze bulb fed by the other racor. Granted...draining would take longer because I haven't set up for draining yet....but with tubing and a drain cup...I think it would only take as long as it takes for the bowl to drain. It could be draining while you change the element.

I wonder how fast I could do it if I practiced and raced a spin on guy....

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The Racor on my Mainship had a 1/4 turn drain valve on the bottom for easy draining.

MikeD said:

We believe that the water was due to condensation and then stirred up due to some rough water boating.

I am guilty of leaving the tanks half full last winter. This is another practice that I will change, i.e. I will now refuel when I return to port to minimise the risk of condensation, particularly when the boat may not going to be be used for a period.

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While condensation might have been the source....many prominent experts dispute condensation in the average boat fuel tank in most cases....possible but improbable.

Compass Marine ran an independent test that doubts condensation...and I have read and experienced others.

jleonard said:

The Racor on my Mainship had a 1/4 turn drain valve on the bottom for easy draining.

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May get that far on projects to this summer...for sure when I start travelling farther....into less traveled areas...then again that's when multistage may sneak into my bilge too.

psneeld said:

While condensation might have been the source....many prominent experts dispute condensation in the average boat fuel tank in most cases....possible but improbable.

Compass Marine ran an independent test that doubts condensation...and I have read and experienced others.

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I was kind of thinking the same thing. MikeD, if I were you, I would not rest easy with that diagnosis. It is just too convenient for the amount of water in the fuel required to cause what happened. Simply my opinion.

psneeld said:

While condensation might have been the source....many prominent experts dispute condensation in the average boat fuel tank in most cases....possible but improbable.

Compass Marine ran an independent test that doubts condensation...and I have read and experienced others.

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My water in fuel problem actually goes back a couple of years as I first found water in the filter after a rough passage about 2 years ago. At that stage I had only owned the boat for about 6 months and prior to that it had basically sat at it's marina berth for about 3 years (since the PO died).

I believe that the majority of the water accumulated prior to my ownership as when I saw the photo of the inside of the injector pump (see below) I really doubt that this would have happened in the last 87 hours since I last changed the filters.

I have check all other possible sources such as the filler and and breathers and believe (hope) that these are not the source of the water.

psneeld said:

While condensation might have been the source....many prominent experts dispute condensation in the average boat fuel tank in most cases....possible but improbable.

Compass Marine ran an independent test that doubts condensation...and I have read and experienced others.

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I keep my two 160gal tanks at low level almost always. Usually like 40gal in each. Only carry a big load if I need it. So according to common wisdom, I should have water in my fuel. Middle of east coast with wild temp and humidity swings.

I have never seen a drop of water in my tank sumps. I can look into the tank fill and see the lowest corner of the tank. If it was there, I'd see it.

The difference is my tank fills are under a hatch directly on top of tanks, and my vents absolutely cannot pick up water.

So I'm with you, the condensation theory is seriously doubtful to me.

I think most of the water gets in through deck fills and hullside vents. Neither of which I have, intentionally.

Baker said:

I was kind of thinking the same thing. MikeD, if I were you, I would not rest easy with that diagnosis. It is just too convenient for the amount of water in the fuel required to cause what happened. Simply my opinion.

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I agree, in terms of not resting easy. I am seriously considering getting another smaller tank made with a sump and drain. The plan would be to feed this tank from the 2 larger tanks and have a sump big enough to catch the water and hence eliminate the problem before it gets to the primary filter.

MikeD said:

I agree, in terms of not resting easy. I am seriously considering getting another smaller tank made with a sump and drain. The plan would be to feed this tank from the 2 larger tanks and have a sump big enough to catch the water and hence eliminate the problem before it gets to the primary filter.

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That set up would be referred to as a "day tank". Most day tank set ups have filtration(polishing system) on the way to that tank as well as after and then the on engine filters. The polishing system would rid the fuel of contaminants and also give you an idea of the condition of your fuel....IF YOU HAVE SIGHT BOWLS!!!!!!....hahahaha!!!!

Read post #59. While it sounds complicated, his second paragraph sums it up. It is basically simple.

In any event...I would still be suspicious and keep a close eye on your fuel supply....regardless of how you are able to do that.

On a completely different note....your boat is quite a handsome vessel!!!!

MikeD
Are you finding salt water or fresh water in your fuel? Integral tanks?

John
I may have missed it, where did the water in you tanks come from?

sunchaser said:

MikeD

John
I may have missed it, where did the water in you tanks come from?

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Fuel coolers.....Cummins 6BTAs

Baker said:

That set up would be referred to as a "day tank". Most day tank set ups have filtration(polishing system) on the way to that tank as well as after and then the on engine filters. The polishing system would rid the fuel of contaminants and also give you an idea of the condition of your fuel....IF YOU HAVE SIGHT BOWLS!!!!!!....hahahaha!!!!

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Not sure that it will be practical for me to add intermediate filtration between the main and 'day' tanks due to space constraints. I think if I add a day tank and with quite a large sump and then drain that regularly it will be a big step forward.

As a precaution, I will also change the o-ring on the filler cap when I am up at the boat this Friday, just to be sure. There is only one filler cap for both tanks. With regard to the breathers, these are in a recessed space well above the deck and I don't think these will be the cause.

Anyway, thanks for the input guys! Hopefully I will get this sorted and restore my confidence in my fuel supply. In the meantime, the site glass will be checked twice a day, minimum!!

Baker said:

Fuel coolers.....Cummins 6BTAs

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Hmmm..... will need to check that, but I don't think there is a fuel cooler on the engine.

Ski in NC said:

I still don't see how changing a spin on is faster or easier. It is certainly messier. Crack it loose and a few ounces are coming out. Then easy to spill more while handling the topped up filter. Then screw on new one. Going to prime that with the squeeze bulb? Where does the air go? Either need to fill it first, or vent while priming.

To change my racor, crack lid loose. Pump primer a few times on engine to draw fuel level down half inch. Swap out element, put lid back on. A few drips easy to manage. No need to reprime.

And adding a mud filter before a racor? I don't see the logic in that.

And that bowl is essential to me. Do an engine room check, if it is clear red, all's good. Water is obvious as it is NOT red.

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ski you can keep the bowl after the spin on, as to the mess first drain some fuel from the spin on with stopcock take off dump in container spin on new filter and fill with closed loop OB bulb pump reopen fuel stop cocks ready to go. Where is the big mess?

Condensation, no.

One pound of dry air = 13.15 cu feet. At 90% humidity and 22 degrees, there is about 0.4 cu inch water. Therefore an empty 400 gallon fuel tank, 64 cu feet, has about 12 cu inches of water in the air in there, or .3 Imperial pint. In a half full fuel tank, 200 gallons of air, there is about 0.15 Imperial pints of water in the air in that tank.

Ergo bingo, condensation not a problem. My head hurts now so I am going to take a nap.