Northern Spy
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Did you get the spreadsheet?
Time to re-power
- Thread starter AusCan
- Start date
The friendliest place on the web for anyone who enjoys boating.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
skipperdude
Guru
Anybody know about the Yanmar. A friend just reposted with two Yanmars. The blocks are BMW. I'm told they are bullet proof. From what I'm told Yanmar uses several different blocks to maranize. Not sure.
SD
SD
skipperdude
Guru
Thanks. That's what I thought. A BMW mechanic friend of mine highly rated the BMW blocks.
SD
SD
gadenors
Veteran Member
Eric.
Yes Eric, the N4-38 is a 1.5 L. Kubota are of the super 05 series.
I agree with you that the 1.75 L Vetus/Mitsubishi is a fine well build engine, the oil filter (mid on bloc.) are easy to change, so are the rest.
Sole in Spain, also marinize your 1.75 But as a 1.3 L 3 cyl . 33 HP.
Mitsu og Kubota? - not mush diff.in quality, those Japanese small are almost the same higth quality, mechanic say that Kubota are easier to rebuild. If one have good and easy relationship with a dealer that you trust, then thats the one to place an order, Mitsu og Kubota, Beta or Nanni, - small marginal often plays a role..!
Nomad Willy
Guru
gadenors,
I do like Kabota's. Almost bought one for Willy. It was a very heavy 42hp engine .. all cast iron and made it's power at 2500rpm. It was offered by Westerbeke via Gallery Marine in Seattle .... until it wasn't. Just when I was reaching for my checkbook. NLA.
Yes these small Japanese engines are very good .. and still available non-turbo. If the single engine option wasn't so popular I'll bet there'd be repowers w two of this type of engine on boats like a GB 32.
I do like Kabota's. Almost bought one for Willy. It was a very heavy 42hp engine .. all cast iron and made it's power at 2500rpm. It was offered by Westerbeke via Gallery Marine in Seattle .... until it wasn't. Just when I was reaching for my checkbook. NLA.
Yes these small Japanese engines are very good .. and still available non-turbo. If the single engine option wasn't so popular I'll bet there'd be repowers w two of this type of engine on boats like a GB 32.
OP
OP
AusCan
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I decided to go for the Vetus Mitsubishi over the Kubota for 2 reasons.
1. The Vetus engine mount footprint is narrower, and a better fit in the tight space I had available.
2. Both original quotes were very similar in price, with Beta being about $1000 higher.
But Beta wanted $5000 extra for a 100amp alternator, instrument panel with 3 gauges, a hydraulic gearbox, and freight. With Vetus, it cost less than $400 extra for the same extras. (including air freighting the ZF25A gearbox from Holland)
So with the savings, I'm buying 2 new custom made fuel tanks, a good filter system, sound proofing the engine room, upgrading the bilge pumps, plus money left over.
1. The Vetus engine mount footprint is narrower, and a better fit in the tight space I had available.
2. Both original quotes were very similar in price, with Beta being about $1000 higher.
But Beta wanted $5000 extra for a 100amp alternator, instrument panel with 3 gauges, a hydraulic gearbox, and freight. With Vetus, it cost less than $400 extra for the same extras. (including air freighting the ZF25A gearbox from Holland)
So with the savings, I'm buying 2 new custom made fuel tanks, a good filter system, sound proofing the engine room, upgrading the bilge pumps, plus money left over.
OP
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AusCan
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I did. Thanks NS,
Quite a thorough tabulation you've got going there.
I had plenty of charts & numbers, but still needed my wooden mock-engine to show me which engine was the best fit.
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When the smog regulations went into effect in 2007(?), Yanmar contracted out to these vendors for engines in the 100-300hp range. I was under the impression that it was a transient thing until Yanmar could get their production line up and running to produce that range of engine. I could be way off....
Ski in NC
Technical Guru
This is a complicated arena, and we will probably never know the whole story. Lots of the details are kept close inside the various corporations.
I have heard bits from various sources, and tried to put some bits together in a way that made sense:
Many of the emission control technologies are protected by patents. Many patents. Some engine builders purchase their injection system from Bosch, which hold many of the patents. This includes Cummins, Volvo, and most of the other Euro engine builders. So these builders license Bosch tech as part of buying their injection equipment. Other builders such as Yanmar and Cat have traditionally built their own injection equipment, or purchased from third party Bosch license holders.
As emissions tightened, Bosch developed stuff that met the rules. Other non-Bosch engine builders went their own way, experimenting with other ways to comply. But they either did not successfully meet the rules, had poor performance, or ran afoul of Bosch patents.
Who knows what kind of licensing agreements are out there in the corporate world, but there may be some exclusivity there. Cummins may have something where Cat cannot buy the same tech. Who knows!!
So we have Cat and Yanmar late to the common rail world. Yanmar now does have CR in the Toyota based engines, and recently also the JH. Cat has no common rail in smaller engines, except for those bought whole from some Euro builders.
The junk I typed above is about half speculation and the other half based on hearsay, so take it for what it is worth!!
Some of the patents are expiring, and that may allow more CR tech without licensing trouble.
Who knows.
Ski:
I think that you are correct about what happened. Yanmar tried and either failed or was blocked by patents. As a result they had to marinize the BMW engines to stay in the market.
Now that Yanmar has CR in their own JH engine and in the Toyota one, I hope that they will work on their 4LH engine and bring it back to the market with CR. The BMW based BY engines are a poor substitute for the 4LH and with the exception of Volvo there is no other real competition at that size.
David
I think that you are correct about what happened. Yanmar tried and either failed or was blocked by patents. As a result they had to marinize the BMW engines to stay in the market.
Now that Yanmar has CR in their own JH engine and in the Toyota one, I hope that they will work on their 4LH engine and bring it back to the market with CR. The BMW based BY engines are a poor substitute for the 4LH and with the exception of Volvo there is no other real competition at that size.
David
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Ski in NC
Technical Guru
Dave- Agreed. If they can get the CR on the JH, do it on the LH too!!! For that matter, buy the molds for the Toyota based LP and strap CR on it. No need for a stupid V8. Dang, just strap it on the whole product line!! Over 50hp, that is. No need for CR on sailboats. Oh wait, that emissions thing...
BruceK
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Steve, congratulations, the new powerplant sounds a good choice. You really are dictated to by the deep pit which serves as the ER. I helped a friend R&R the engine in a Resort 35,tight as, building and installing a mock-up was a good idea. We spent hours bent over shimming the engine mounts.
OP
OP
AusCan
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You know it Bruce.
I am am currently luxuriating in the sit-up engine room with no engine.
Before the new engine is installed, I need to:
- Finish cleaning & painting bilge
- Replace the fuel tanks, filters, and lines,
- Install engine mount beds,
- Relocate battery boxes
- Rewire for new engine, ER lights, and bilge pumps
I am hoping that with the newer smaller engine, and the relocated batteries, exhaust & fuel tanks; if I play my cards right, I may just be able to sit down aft of the engine after it is installed; rather than working upside down.
Driftless
Veteran Member
I've encountered a bunch of MD-3B and MD-17C Volvo engines in Albin-25s, and they are indeed well made machines. Most of the A-25 repowers seem to be with Beta or Yanmar engines, and both have excellent records. The Beta line is well supported (at least here in New England, USA) as is Yanmar.
I'd say you could select either one without reservation.
I have no experience with Nanni engines.
GOOD LUCK!
JS
I'd say you could select either one without reservation.
I have no experience with Nanni engines.
GOOD LUCK!
JS
siestakey
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You know it Bruce.
I am am currently luxuriating in the sit-up engine room with no engine.
Before the new engine is installed, I need to:
- Finish cleaning & painting bilge
- Replace the fuel tanks, filters, and lines,
- Install engine mount beds,
- Relocate battery boxes
- Rewire for new engine, ER lights, and bilge pumps
I am hoping that with the newer smaller engine, and the relocated batteries, exhaust & fuel tanks; if I play my cards right, I may just be able to sit down aft of the engine after it is installed; rather than working upside down.
Pictures of the project please sir
OP
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AusCan
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Sorry - siesta key I'm camera-less at the moment, but I'll borrow one over the next few days. The new Vetus is getting dropped in on Wednesday.
Photo's are definitely required.
I'm currently revelling in the pleasure of working in my clean "engine room".
It's a pity that once an engine goes back into the ER, access will be much more limited.
I've got one new 2mm (.078") stainless steel fuel tank in place, the second one will go in tomorrow. I've raised the new tanks off the deck with a slope towards the outlet so any water or sediment does not build up. Still plenty to get done before I lose my easy access.
FF
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The older Volvos MD3B and others did well as they were created as marine engines.
Marinizations of yard implements (Kubota) work fine today as modern manufacturing techniques do much of the selection and assembly.
In many cases the boat will loose 200+ pounds of cast iron which is usually good , BUT by loosing a heavy flywheel the boat may not be as smooth.
For the DIY folks the 3 cylinder Kubotas can be found used at truck reefer shops , usually 3 for $1000.
Marinizations of yard implements (Kubota) work fine today as modern manufacturing techniques do much of the selection and assembly.
In many cases the boat will loose 200+ pounds of cast iron which is usually good , BUT by loosing a heavy flywheel the boat may not be as smooth.
For the DIY folks the 3 cylinder Kubotas can be found used at truck reefer shops , usually 3 for $1000.
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AusCan
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New engine on board
Significant milestone in the re-power project. The new engine is onboard. Here's the old Volvo that came out.
I then clean the bilge, removed & replaced the fuel tanks, moving them outward a few inches to give me space to box in the engine. Stringers widened to suit new engine mount position and 4" angle bolted & glued to stringer. Battery boxes removed and bilge painted. Sound proofing begun.
Significant milestone in the re-power project. The new engine is onboard. Here's the old Volvo that came out.
I then clean the bilge, removed & replaced the fuel tanks, moving them outward a few inches to give me space to box in the engine. Stringers widened to suit new engine mount position and 4" angle bolted & glued to stringer. Battery boxes removed and bilge painted. Sound proofing begun.
Attachments
CPseudonym
Moderator Emeritus
Sweet looking bilge bling AusCan, keep up the great work
Nomad Willy
Guru
Yup ..... I really liked the Yellow and almost bought this engine. My Mitsu is flat black looked used from the start.
AusCan did you have those engine mount brackets fabed from steel plate and then galvanized? You're stringers are considerably further apart than mine. That will be nice when you drop things down there or clean up. What gear is that ... ? Looks bigger than the aluminum boxed things usually found on small engines. Could it be hydraulically controlled? You'll love that engine. The glow plugs are bullet proof. We have the same ones since new ten years ago. I run mine 8 seconds on a cold engine. It then starts instantly and runs smoothly at 1000rpm. Mine cold will run 600 at dead idle. I idle mine at 850 to 900 when warm. I'm propped to 3000 and cruise at 2300 almost always. Occasionally I'll run at 2500 when trying to reach an anchorage before dark. Above 2500 Willy makes such a big stupid wake I'd not want to be seen doing it.
AusCan did you have those engine mount brackets fabed from steel plate and then galvanized? You're stringers are considerably further apart than mine. That will be nice when you drop things down there or clean up. What gear is that ... ? Looks bigger than the aluminum boxed things usually found on small engines. Could it be hydraulically controlled? You'll love that engine. The glow plugs are bullet proof. We have the same ones since new ten years ago. I run mine 8 seconds on a cold engine. It then starts instantly and runs smoothly at 1000rpm. Mine cold will run 600 at dead idle. I idle mine at 850 to 900 when warm. I'm propped to 3000 and cruise at 2300 almost always. Occasionally I'll run at 2500 when trying to reach an anchorage before dark. Above 2500 Willy makes such a big stupid wake I'd not want to be seen doing it.
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OP
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AusCan
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The old volvo had a fairly wide footprint. I added a 1 ½" x 8" grey box (very hard wood) plank to the inside of each stringer and epoxied / bolted them in place. I then used 4x4x3/8" galvanized angle to fabricate the bed for the mounts.
The black section on top of the engine is an aluminium coolant "heat sink" which Vetus adds as part of their marinizing kit. It supposed helps to keep the ambient temperature cool in an enclosed engine space. It also also supposedly reduces the engine noise by 5-10 dB.
The gearbox is a ZF-25A hydraulic unit. It is somewhat oversized, normally fitted to 60-100 hp engines. A few big advantages. It can be run at full power is either direction, so I don't have to replace my LH prop. I just hook up the linkage in reverse.
Also it had a big vertical offset, which was required as my prop shaft sits low in the bilge.
Also the 8 degree down angle allowed me to reduce the engine angle to only 3 degrees. horizontal.
I'm on my way back to work now, so I'll have to wait a month before I hear her running. I still have all the details to finish. Wiring, throttle & gearbox linkage, fuel lines, relocate battery boxes, exhaust, sound insulation, raw water hookup.
The hard slog is done though.
The black section on top of the engine is an aluminium coolant "heat sink" which Vetus adds as part of their marinizing kit. It supposed helps to keep the ambient temperature cool in an enclosed engine space. It also also supposedly reduces the engine noise by 5-10 dB.
The gearbox is a ZF-25A hydraulic unit. It is somewhat oversized, normally fitted to 60-100 hp engines. A few big advantages. It can be run at full power is either direction, so I don't have to replace my LH prop. I just hook up the linkage in reverse.
Also it had a big vertical offset, which was required as my prop shaft sits low in the bilge.
Also the 8 degree down angle allowed me to reduce the engine angle to only 3 degrees. horizontal.
I'm on my way back to work now, so I'll have to wait a month before I hear her running. I still have all the details to finish. Wiring, throttle & gearbox linkage, fuel lines, relocate battery boxes, exhaust, sound insulation, raw water hookup.
The hard slog is done though.
Nomad Willy
Guru
Sounds like it's all coming together perfect. That's the new saying now ... "perfect". Everybody says perfect all the time. Beats "far out" though. Boy did I ever get sick of that.
The pre-chamber Mitsu is a quiet engine w/o the black aluminum cooler. So you should be happy w the minimal noise. With Klassen I saw an opportunity to get set up w no aluminum on my engine at all and "went for it". They didn't have the black cooler then though. You're really going to like that engine. Unlike mine it's great to look at too.
The pre-chamber Mitsu is a quiet engine w/o the black aluminum cooler. So you should be happy w the minimal noise. With Klassen I saw an opportunity to get set up w no aluminum on my engine at all and "went for it". They didn't have the black cooler then though. You're really going to like that engine. Unlike mine it's great to look at too.
BruceK
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Replacing my bent port shaft I was surprised at the fine tolerances of aligning gearbox and shaft. The shipwright muttered that even newly qualified guys have no idea how fine the limits are. Something to check when finishing the fine tuning.
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AusCan
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Eric- Maybe not perfect, but there's been a lot of thought put into it. One of the advantages of doing it yourself is that you can stop and reconsider your plans at any stage. I also kept in mind things like access for maintenance which is so important on small boats like ours.
Bruce - I built the engine bed to have the engine sitting about 5mm (¼") low which will allow me to space it out for a good alignment. When designing & fabrication the mounts etc, I built a wooden model (actually 2, a Vetus & a Beta) which I used to get my heights and angles set uo properly. I have made up a selection of stainless spacers to go under the engine mounts giving me the precise amount of lift required for a good alignment. Since I have a very short driveshaft and no shaft bearing, it makes alignment easier than on some boats.
Bruce - I built the engine bed to have the engine sitting about 5mm (¼") low which will allow me to space it out for a good alignment. When designing & fabrication the mounts etc, I built a wooden model (actually 2, a Vetus & a Beta) which I used to get my heights and angles set uo properly. I have made up a selection of stainless spacers to go under the engine mounts giving me the precise amount of lift required for a good alignment. Since I have a very short driveshaft and no shaft bearing, it makes alignment easier than on some boats.
