Anchor rode question.....again

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Marin if your lofrans is horizontal as I suspect There might be a reason for all chain. ( The internet site I accessed shows options for wildcats.) Depending on angle the rode comes into the wildcat there may not be all that much grip and that would work better with chain than rode. I once had a horizontal wildcat and had that problem until I devised a heavy duty roller to keep the chain and more important the rode at a low angle on approach to the wildcat and that also allowed the wildcat to get a good grip on rode. I now have a vertical unit and there is more chain and rode in contact with the wildcat so a chain rode combo works fine. As for the extra weight and chain that has become a debatable issue with modern deep set anchors. I will concede the value of chain where there is a rough bottom and chafe is an issue. The rode is stronger and more elastic than chain and if the weight is not needed with a deep set anchor other than to help the set why carry the extra weight. I do not think the last 50 foot of chain would be significant to the set. My end game is that I need no snubber it is built in and I can make do with 150ft of chain and 200ft of rode. If I went all chain for that 350 foot nose down and some loss of sea keeping do to extra weight at extreme forward end of boat.
 
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The boat's original windlass was a horizontal windlass as well, same cofiguration and mounting as the Lofrans Tigres we replaced it with, and it used the chain rode we still use today.

But regardless of the windlass type and configuration, we would always go with all-chain rode with a boat like this one. For a boat of this type and weight, we see no advantage to a combination rode and several disadvantages.

If we had a lighter, more weight-critical boat it might well be a different story.
 
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TunaJoe,

The weight bags were placed in the stern locker at the factory. The idea is to compensate for any weight of factory/dealer/owner installed components like generator, freezer, chain, windlass, etc. My recollection is I have about six 50# bags of granite rocks. You can also use 25# bags of lead shot.

I do see some flex at the pulpit if I bounce the 35# Delta up onto the roller under power. The factory shipped the roller and it was dealer installed. The roller extends out over the bow more than I like, so there's quite a bit of leverage on the pulpit area. I generally haul up to the shank, then pull the anchor up on the roller by hand. I installed the windlass myself so no re-positioning necessary. I've got a 1/2" aluminum plate under the windlass. I'll check under the roller to see how the dealer did it. I suspect nothing more than large SS washers. If so, one of these days, I'll replace that with as large an aluminum plate as I can get under it.

To follow up on Marin's comment on snubbers. Out of frame, I have a couple of large cleats behind the chocks. I can also bring the 2 ends of the snubber to the samson post. I hang on a double-penant mooring, and I'm rigged for that. The snubber is essential in any long-term anchoring. The snubber spreads the load to the sides. It lowers the catenary angle closer to the water, and acts as a shock absorber.
 
Still say if you've got 300lbs (or thereabouts) chain in your rode you'd be much better off anchoring w a 250lb anchor and all nylon line. Whatever kind of boat you've got. Unessessary weight is just that ... unessessary. But if it makes you feel good ........


However on bigger boats (30 tons?) and without the splice and dual rode option all chain made good sense. But on smaller boats a combination rode is best. Even Chapman says so.

And Marin I think a case can be made that weight of the upper 1/3 of a chain rode from the bow roller to a point 2/3rds up from the anchor actually REDUCES catenary. If you were to hang clothes on a clothes line only in the middle of the north end I'll bet the droop in the line on the south end will become less. And transferring that to anchor rodes the longer scopes would make that even more so.
 
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manyboats said:
Still say if you've got 300lbs (or thereabouts) chain in your rode you'd be much better off anchoring w a 250lb anchor and all nylon line. Whatever kind of boat you've got. Unessessary weight is just that ... unessessary. But if it makes you feel good ........
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Eric

I won't jump into the virtues of chain vs line except that sometimes a line rode is inpracticable or even unfeasable.

The problem is that in larger capacity windlasses the concept of a combination gypsy is a falicy. In actual practice, even the tech suppoort people at the several windlass manufacturers I've spoken with say that their supposigle combination gypsies do not handle line well.

In my boat I'm not going with an all chain rode because I think its any better. I'm going all chain because it is easier to find a horizontal all chain windlass that actually works.
 
Eric-- Your theory might be okay but the reality isn't. Few to no boats in the size category of things like Nordic Tugs, most GBs, Bayliners, etc can accomodate a 250 pound anchor, nor can their windlasses. And hauling up a 250-pound anchor by hand should a windlass fail is a non-starter for most recreational boaters. So once again, your anchoring theory is soundly trumped by reality.:)
 
There are just as many virtues of an all chain rode as all nylon or mixed.

Along the lines of what Kevin posted...many people who select all chain like the simplicity of the retrieval and go from there...if their vessel can carry the weight and few can't as the smaller the boat, downsizing ground tackle is possible.

I could see using a combo rode but my personal experience has not used a windlass that I trust with line retrieval..others may have... but until I need a new windlass and have personal experience with a windlass that handles both flawlessly in all conditions and for years...sticking with all chain and a anchor that doesn't need to be bigger.
 
My system takes advantage of all chain to a point then rode. With the combo of 150ft chain and then rode I find myself anchoring most of the time with all chain and going to the rode for deeper anchorage or short 20ft rode as snubber. As I have said before horizontal wildcats may not like rode. Since my windless can handle the combo I see no reason not to have it both ways while lightening the bow and having the option of a longer combination then if only chain. Modern thought about weight and anchor and rode is changing. the more secure anchor digs deep and big bulky anchors with heavy chain are handicapped in digging and tend to drag. Weight of anchor and chain may help some with initial set but after that the weight is not so important and more scope of lite line would do the same thing and once dug in a lite modern digger will out hold old heavy iron almost all anchor tests agree with that. If you have mostly line and a good digger anchor you can set with additional scope then shorten to same as chain in tight anchorage. I think the real value of chain is in rocky rough bottoms and windlasses that are poorly set up or designed for only chain and do not do well with the combo. A heavy duty roller on the deck not too far from a horizontal can make a big difference by causing the wildcat to engage more of the chain and or line in its circumference. The reason a vertical works better is that more of the rode or chain is engaged by the wildcat before it peels off.
 
One thing for newbies....

There is very little substantial "proof" of anything about anchoring.....

All you can do is go with what you think will work...how you come to that conclusion is read everything you can and talk to as many cruisers as you can. Then experiment...taking your time till experience with YOUR setup either works or doesn't.

No one anchor, system, windlass, rode comes close to satisfying all cruisers.

Authorities on anchoring are people with experience and will tell you what they know willingly...when they narrow things down in general and not specifically to a boat or cruising style...I'd be wary of thinking the advice will necessarily apply to you.
 
psneeld, ksanders and Marin,
Excellent posts and I think we're actually getting closer to what really is except for Marin's "And hauling up a 250-pound anchor by hand should a windlass fail is a non-starter for most recreational boaters. So once again, your anchoring theory is soundly trumped by reality.:)" As I said reality is that if you dumpted your chain and used a 250lb anchor your rode weight would be (for all PP) the same so REALITY is that pulling up your rode would be the same.

About the splice I'm not 110% ready to trust it. Many here do but I think the pinching forces on the line would be very high and not very good for same so ..... If I ever go to much more chain than I have now (15' or so) I'd probably do 1/4" chain and stop at 200'. I'd rig it so I could quickly attach (w a shackle) another rode or a long length of line. Using all chain w a gypsy and storing it in the chain locker would sure be simple ... and easy. At 75 easy has some appeal. But the combination rode is best or perhaps better put here on TF "ideal" but not from an operational standpoint.

There's two platforms here. 1. what is easiest to handle and 2. what will hold the boat best w/o unnecessary weight. The chain scores in number 1 and the combination scores in number 2.

Kevin and Scott's input above is IMO very objective and addresses the "real" world that I think Marin is talking about.
 
manyboats said:
As I said reality is that if you dumpted your chain and used a 250lb anchor your rode weight would be (for all PP) the same so REALITY is that pulling up your rode would be the same. .
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No it wouldn't. If I'm anchored in 30 feet of water with 200 feet of chain out, if I retrieve the anchor I am never pulling up the entire weight of 200 feet of chain at one time. I'm pulling up maybe 40 feet of chain with the rest still lying on the bottom. So no big deal. As I do this, the boat keeps moving forward until it's directly over the anchor. Then I have to pull up not only the 30 feet of chain between the boat and the bottom but the ENTIRE 250 pounds of anchor along with it.

That, combined with the fact that a 250-pound anchor won't even come close to fitting on our boat, sort of negates the practicality of your theory.

There's that pesky reality thing again, Eric.:)
 
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Boats that may be perfect, but difficult to use, no matter the reason including inexperience, don't get used.

Anchoring and getting good at it takes practice....many agree it't practice over equipment that really matters.

Anything and everything that makes anchoring easier....can only be "better" in the long run.

Better is a dirty word in boating because it rarely applies...but if I ever use it in TF....that last sentence may be the best use of it.
 
Here is one to ponder. What do you do when the heavy chain and anchor is out and you are in 60 ft of water and the windless craps out? I am so old and been doing this anchor stuff so long that has actually happened to me. I sure would have voted for an aluminum spade 10ft of chain and all rode at that point.
 
eyschulman said:
Here is one to ponder. What do you do when the heavy chain and anchor is out and you are in 60 ft of water and the windless craps out? I am so old and been doing this anchor stuff so long that has actually happened to me. I sure would have voted for an aluminum spade 10ft of chain and all rode at that point.
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I use the manual crank side and this is where the horizontal shines unless you use a power drill with attachment for the vertical kind.
Shame on me if that doesn't work as mine is so simple it would have to fall apart first.

if that doesn't work..the chain cones up with about the same ease as nylon...maybe a little heavier...the anchor is the anchor no matter what rode.

many days I deal with wet nylon tow lines...believe me...hauling in nylon or chain by hand will wind you if not in shape...but I don't see the average chain rode as much worse.

when the boat gets big enough and you have to pull nylon, chain or the boat....good luck to anyone.
 
Marin said:
No it wouldn't. If I'm anchored in 30 feet of water with 200 feet of chain out, if I retrieve the anchor I am never pulling up the entire weight of 200 feet of chain at one time. I'm pulling up maybe 40 feet of chain with the rest still lying on the bottom. So no big deal. As I do this, the boat keeps moving forward until it's directly over the anchor. Then I have to pull up not only the 30 feet of chain between the boat and the bottom but the ENTIRE 250 pounds of anchor along with it.

That, combined with the fact that a 250-pound anchor won't even come close to fitting on our boat, sort of negates the practicality of your theory.

There's that pesky reality thing again, Eric.:)
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Got a point there Marin. But if my example had'nt been so extreme you would'nt. But the all chain rode is not defendable except for convenience.

N4712 looks like more unessessary weight.
 
eyschulman said:
Here is one to ponder. What do you do when the heavy chain and anchor is out and you are in 60 ft of water and the windless craps out?.
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The original windlass to the boat did this to us (lunched a couple of gears) and I had to pull the chain and the 44 pound anchor by hand. We were in 30 feet of water at the time. I took my time and had no real problem although I can think of things I'd rather do.

We replaced this windlass with a Lofrans Tigres which has a manual mode. While very slow, it's easy on the body to use.
 
manyboats said:
But the all chain rode is not defendable except for convenience.
.
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Of course it is. Your nylon rode doesn't do squat to lower the angle of pull on the anchor when the wind kicks up. In fact, unless you use a heavy kellet, it tries to lever the anchor up out of the bottom when all the slack is out of it.

An all-chain rode will do this, too, of course, if the wind kicks up enough to take all the catenary out of the line. But the wind has to be a hell of a lot stronger before this happens to an all-chain rode that it has to be to make your nylon rode a straight line from your bow roller to the anchor shank and start pulling up on the anchor.

And the way we use our snubber and the long loop of chain we let down between the bow pulpit and the chain grab, the wind will have to blow even a bit harder to make the chain a straight line from the pulpit to the anchor.

To my way of thinking, the only advantage a nylon rode has over all-chain is less weight in the bow and it makes it easier to pull the anchor by hand if you have to. And with a boat like the one we have here in the PNW, weight in the bow is of no consequence, at least as far as two or three hundred feet of chain is concerned.

It would be on your boat, but it's not on ours.

So I don't view all-chain as a less-than-ideal rode at all. I view a combination rode as less-than-ideal, at least on boats like the one we have here and in the waters we boat in.

But you are certainly correct in one regard. An all-chain rode is certainly more convenient than a combination or all-nylon rode. Nylon is a pain in the butt to keep clean, it doesn't want to go where you want it to go when you haul it in, it tangles on itself at the drop of a hat, and more often than not it gets to stinking in the chain locker. (Ever wonder why it's called a "chain locker" and not a "nylon locker." Even the old-timers knew better than to mess around with a toy anchor rode.:) Kidding.)

So contrary to you, I don't view a lighweight rode as being at all beneficial other than it being light. And you don't have to use a snubber with it. But snubbers are so easy to rig I don't see much advantage to not having to use one.

As psneeld says, there is no one-size-fits-all solution. There are certainly plenty of boats and anchoring situations where a combination rode is the better bet than all-chain. But in my opinion, our boat in our waters isn't one of them.
 
Slightly off topic, I was meeting a Nordhaven in the Hudson River last summer. I noticed a 'line' hanging down from his pulpit into the water.

I called him to say HI, and to also comment about 'the line hanging off his pulpit'.

He informed me it was a 'loop' of line with a snap shackle in it. He used it for anchoring in shallow areas, to reduce the amount of scope necessary. He mentioned he reduced the amount of scope by taking OUT the height from the pulpit to the waterline, thus making 'short scope anchoring' in tight quarters, but in reality actually having the proper amount of scope out! Pretty impressive. Now that I am looking for it, I see it on quite a few vessels. It consists of an eyebolt at the waterline, and a loop of line and a snap shackle through the eyebolt, up to the pulpit. Anyone else use this?

The math ( using 6' depth) works out like this: The height of the pulpit, 7', plus the 6' equals 13' x 6= 78' for 6:1; However taking out the height of the pupit, 6' depth, 6x6= 36' of scope needed for 6:1.
with different depths 37x6=223' 6:1
but from the waterline, 30x6=180' 6:1
or deeper, 57x6=342' 6:1
but from the waterline 50x6300' 6:1

So in the same water depth, the scope can be kept to the correct angle to ensure the anchor digging in correctly. I wouldn't use this in a blow, but for ordinary anchoring it sounds pretty neat.
 

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cappy208 said:
Slightly off topic, I was meeting a Nordhaven in the Hudson River last summer. I noticed a 'line' hanging down from his pulpit into the water.

I called him to say HI, and to also comment about 'the line hanging off his pulpit'.

He informed me it was a 'loop' of line with a snap shackle in it. He used it for anchoring in shallow areas, to reduce the amount of scope necessary. He mentioned he reduced the amount of scope by taking OUT the height from the pulpit to the waterline, thus making 'short scope anchoring' in tight quarters, but in reality actually having the proper amount of scope out! Pretty impressive. Now that I am looking for it, I see it on quite a few vessels. It consists of an eyebolt at the waterline, and a loop of line and a snap shackle through the eyebolt, up to the pulpit. Anyone else use this?

The math ( using 6' depth) works out like this: The height of the pulpit, 7', plus the 6' equals 13' x 6= 78' for 6:1; However taking out the height of the pupit, 6' depth, 6x6= 36' of scope needed for 6:1.
with different depths 37x6=223' 6:1
but from the waterline, 30x6=180' 6:1
or deeper, 57x6=342' 6:1
but from the waterline 50x6300' 6:1

So in the same water depth, the scope can be kept to the correct angle to ensure the anchor digging in correctly. I wouldn't use this in a blow, but for ordinary anchoring it sounds pretty neat.
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Yep that's how our setup works. Are now is like 10ft off the water so it definitely helps with not having to out out as much scope even though I leave a big bight.
 
I'm sure that Warn winch would work only you have to rerig every 15 feet and tie off between rigging changes. The anchor gets the heaviest after it breaks the surface.
 
freshalaska said:
I'm sure that Warn winch would work only you have to rerig every 15 feet and tie off between rigging changes. The anchor gets the heaviest after it breaks the surface.
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Well if we have to re rig every 15ft so be it. Better then manually doing it. We also have a 1300lb davit if we ever needed to break it out with the windlass broken.
 
RCook said:
Suspend the chain so that you can sit with the chain end hanging in front of you roughly at the height of your shoulders. Flatten out each of the three strands after you tie on a constrictor and unlay them - don't keep them twisted and round. Cut their ends into a bit of a taper, and then tape around each end with masking tape making somewhat of a point.


RC,

Getting back to splicing, I tape the strands then make the tapered cut.

Rob
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What timely thread! I am setting up for the inside passage. I have a Maxwell/Nilsson windlass. Currently I have 120 of 5/16 BBB chain and a 40lb Danforth anchor. I am replacing it with a 73lb Rocna anchor, 400' of 5/16 BBB chain with at least 200' of rope rode at the tail end. Good info here. Thanks
 
Four hundred feet of chain might be a bit overkill, but three hundred for sure.
 
A long rode has a lot of merrit in Alaska.

Side note:
It's interesting Rocna is now building anchors W/O roll bars and Spade just introduced 2 anchors in their line WITH roll bars. It seems I'm not the only one in doubt.
 
manyboats said:
A long rode has a lot of merrit in Alaska.

Side note:
It's interesting Rocna is now building anchors W/O roll bars and Spade just introduced 2 anchors in their line WITH roll bars. It seems I'm not the only one in doubt.
Click to expand...

I bought one with a roll bar? Are there concerns?
 
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