New Long Thin, Hyper-Efficient Trawler

eyschulman · Jan 30, 2015

Has anybody heard of the boat cottage ratio? I don't think so its something in my head and just decided to pop out. So it works like this I look at a boat and start thinking how much of this particular boat or design is basic boat and how much emphasis is on living volume and cottage on the water stuff. As I look at long lite and skinny I am thinking 90% basic boat 10% cottage. When I look at a KK or NH or Seline my thoughts go to 40% boat and 60% cottage. A house boat would go to 90% cottage and 10% boat. For me it is a helpful slide ruler to measure a craft against its intended use.

Northern Spy · Jan 30, 2015

eyschulman said:
Has anybody heard of the boat cottage ratio?

No I hadn't. But I like it.

nemier · Jan 30, 2015

I'm not sure I share the analogy. The word 'cottage' sounds negative to me, when used in the same sentence with 'boat',,, like 'Cottage' is a bad thing? Perhaps it's just me. :whistling:

I think we all agree that one's boat must fit their mission. When this is accomplished, it becomes the perfect boat. It really does seem that simple to me.

Btw, I love your boat, and everything Sam puts his hands on. Beautiful boats.
I bought some of his plans at Christmas.

Rustybarge · Jan 31, 2015

nemier said:
I'm not sure I share the analogy. The word 'cottage' sounds negative to me, when used in the same sentence with 'boat',,, like 'Cottage' is a bad thing? Perhaps it's just me.

I think we all agree that one's boat must fit their mission. When this is accomplished, it becomes the perfect boat. It really does seem that simple to me.

Btw, I love your boat, and everything Sam puts his hands on. Beautiful boats.
I bought some of his plans at Christmas.

+1
That guy is a seriously good designer. Even his small boats have a jaunty flair to them, and going on the premise ' if it looks right.......'

Love his lines.

Nomad Willy · Jan 31, 2015

I think most of our boats here fall into a Cottage Ratio of about 65 to 75% Cottage. Sport fisher about 35 to 45% Cottage. But our trawlers are more like house boats. Slow and comfortable.

eyschulman,
Got any more interesting stuff about ready to pop out .. of your head?? I'm game.

eyschulman · Jan 31, 2015

I don't see cottage on the water as a bad thing. People all over the world pay big bucks to live on the water. For those who want to take their land based comforts with them its a win win situation. Here in Seattle we have a large floating boat house population. I see only benefit in judging a boat by its abilities and usability thus the boat cottage ratio. This type of thinking could help people choose the right boat for them and have it match how it will be used. That different ratios would be applied by different observers is expected but with a larger sample a realistic average could be obtained.

BandB · Jan 31, 2015

100% boat and 100% home. That's the way we look at it. Must perform as we'd expect a boat to and must be livable for the amount of time we intend to spend on it. It's not either/or, it's both. That's what makes the selection so complicated. You are selecting both.

Also, even as you reduce the living quarters in the boat, I don't see that reducing their importance. If anything it puts more pressure on that aspect. If it's 100' with 3 staterooms, it's pretty easy to make it into a home. But the liveability of a 32' with 1.5 staterooms is more challenging and extremely important to enjoying a lot of time on the boat.

eyschulman · Jan 31, 2015

BandB said:
100% boat and 100% home. That's the way we look at it. Must perform as we'd expect a boat to and must be livable for the amount of time we intend to spend on it. It's not either/or, it's both. That's what makes the selection so complicated. You are selecting both.

Also, even as you reduce the living quarters in the boat, I don't see that reducing their importance. If anything it puts more pressure on that aspect. If it's 100' with 3 staterooms, it's pretty easy to make it into a home. But the liveability of a 32' with 1.5 staterooms is more challenging and extremely important to enjoying a lot of time on the boat.

The problem with 100%+100% is it =200% and the designer and builder has to juggle with that reality. More volume and more stuff for home comfort can and often does impact heavily on function. The ideal is to find a good balance and when you do you will be possibly 100% happy, but you should understand there will be compromises. The smaller the boat the harder it is to get volume and home like comfort, and it becomes easy to push the boat/cottage ratio to the right. On a large boat if one will give up some luxuries and interior volume it is easier to push the ratio to the left not that many owners or builders would do so, for then you end up with long and skinny. If someone does not appreciate the compromises in any given design than they would not be looking with an educated eye because they are there.

BandB · Jan 31, 2015

eyschulman said:
The problem with 100%+100% is it =200% and the designer and builder has to juggle with that reality. More volume and more stuff for home comfort can and often does impact heavily on function. The ideal is to find a good balance and when you do you will be possibly 100% happy, but you should understand there will be compromises. The smaller the boat the harder it is to get volume and home like comfort, and it becomes easy to push the boat/cottage ratio to the right. On a large boat if one will give up some luxuries and interior volume it is easier to push the ratio to the left not that many owners or builders would do so, for then you end up with long and skinny. If someone does not appreciate the compromises in any given design than they would not be looking with an educated eye because they are there.

We're greedy so sticking with 200%. lol

Both parts of the equation you're trying to get as close to 100% as possible, but it's 100% of the intended use and that varies widely. On the boat part of the equation, it's not the boat to end all boats, but it's the boat that will do what you need. If it's to cover short distances with fuel economy as the priority then it might be a 7 knot boat. On the other hand, if it's to cross oceans, much different. Or if you want to be able to cross to Nassau in less than a day, very much different.

Same on the home portion. Home isn't to match what your land home might be like. It's situation appropriate. If you're going to live on it, then it might require one set of features. If just weekends, it would be more like perhaps a small lake hideaway. If you rarely spend a night on it, then more like the size of a motel room is adequate. You can come closer than one might think to you individual 100% on both sides simply by being sure you've defined your needs and desires fully.

We each are much different in those respects. But if we're careful in defining our requirements, we can come amazingly close. Now if we start off with an unreasonable combination of boat and home, you're right, a lot of compromise and probably won't fulfill either very well. But that's true on both sides separately as well. If I want to go 80 knots and get at least 2 nmpg, then I just need to start over and redefine my goals.

To me ultimately the key to boat selection is carefully defining your requirements and whether we call it home and boat or cottage or 100/100 or 30/70 or however we look at it, we each need to do that aspect carefully. If we do then the perfect boat for us is out there. But what that is, varies by every individual. And where couples are involved, they have to agree on one set of requirements.

Nomad Willy · Jan 31, 2015

Does a hyper-efficient boat wiggle and shake w excitement as it moves through the water?

eyschulman · Jan 31, 2015

manyboats said:
Does a hyper-efficient boat wiggle and shake w excitement as it moves through the water?

Not if properly powered and its hull is shaped right and has some form of keel or fin. I have read that a 35 foot lobster boat with like 800hp will wiggle wildly at top speed.

eyschulman · Jan 31, 2015

BandB said:
100% boat and 100% home. That's the way we look at it. Must perform as we'd expect a boat to and must be livable for the amount of time we intend to spend on it. It's not either/or, it's both. That's what makes the selection so complicated. You are selecting both.

Also, even as you reduce the living quarters in the boat, I don't see that reducing their importance. If anything it puts more pressure on that aspect. If it's 100' with 3 staterooms, it's pretty easy to make it into a home. But the liveability of a 32' with 1.5 staterooms is more challenging and extremely important to enjoying a lot of time on the boat.

I don't know what your budget is but have you come across the Linssen boats. They are a long time popular line of steel boats built in Holland. These boats are known for being robust and their smaller models 34ft and less are roomy. Since the euro is diving against the $ it may be possible to pick one of these up in Europe and eventually transport for a reasonable price. Linssen made a lot of boats very popular so there are many on the used market.

Wxx3 · Feb 1, 2015

BandB said:
We're greedy so sticking with 200%. lol

Both parts of the equation you're trying to get as close to 100% as possible, but it's 100% of the intended use and that varies widely. On the boat part of the equation, it's not the boat to end all boats, but it's the boat that will do what you need. If it's to cover short distances with fuel economy as the priority then it might be a 7 knot boat. On the other hand, if it's to cross oceans, much different. Or if you want to be able to cross to Nassau in less than a day, very much different.

Same on the home portion. Home isn't to match what your land home might be like. It's situation appropriate. If you're going to live on it, then it might require one set of features. If just weekends, it would be more like perhaps a small lake hideaway. If you rarely spend a night on it, then more like the size of a motel room is adequate. You can come closer than one might think to you individual 100% on both sides simply by being sure you've defined your needs and desires fully.

We each are much different in those respects. But if we're careful in defining our requirements, we can come amazingly close. Now if we start off with an unreasonable combination of boat and home, you're right, a lot of compromise and probably won't fulfill either very well. But that's true on both sides separately as well. If I want to go 80 knots and get at least 2 nmpg, then I just need to start over and redefine my goals.

To me ultimately the key to boat selection is carefully defining your requirements and whether we call it home and boat or cottage or 100/100 or 30/70 or however we look at it, we each need to do that aspect carefully. If we do then the perfect boat for us is out there. But what that is, varies by every individual. And where couples are involved, they have to agree on one set of requirements.

I see your point and like it. 50/50 sounds like too much of a compromise, in that it implies you only have half a home.

The two are not mutually exclusive, therefore assigning 100 points to each makes some sense to me.

FF · Feb 1, 2015

Euro boats importing might be worthwhile , but remember their Power Pile is usually 240V - 50 CPS.

There are cures , but none are cheap.

BandB · Feb 1, 2015

FF said:
Euro boats importing might be worthwhile , but remember their Power Pile is usually 240V - 50 CPS.

There are cures , but none are cheap.

Yes, there are Euro boats converted to US and there are those built from the start for the US market. Riva, for instance, designates the boat at the start of production and basically it's a separate model. There are a few other differences as well on some boats.

When Viking was selling Princess in the US as Viking Yachts, they had Princess make quite a few modifications for the US market. Now, other than electrical, many of those ultimately made it to the Euro boats as well. Galley up was one of the first things. In Europe, it was felt that would never be accepted there as the galley had to be kept apart from the living area. But then some started wanting the US version and gradually galley up became just as common in Europe.

Conversions however of the electrical and machinery is a major undertaking and done right it is very costly.

Wxx3 · Feb 1, 2015

BandB said:
Yes, there are Euro boats converted to US and there are those built from the start for the US market. Riva, for instance, designates the boat at the start of production and basically it's a separate model. There are a few other differences as well on some boats.

When Viking was selling Princess in the US as Viking Yachts, they had Princess make quite a few modifications for the US market. Now, other than electrical, many of those ultimately made it to the Euro boats as well. Galley up was one of the first things. In Europe, it was felt that would never be accepted there as the galley had to be kept apart from the living area. But then some started wanting the US version and gradually galley up became just as common in Europe.

Conversions however of the electrical and machinery is a major undertaking and done right it is very costly.

Having a strong Dutch connection, I ended up actually looking at, as in visiting, a lot more Dutch boats than anything else. About a dozen in the Netherlands and one in Jersey City.

At the time I really liked that they were steel and I felt they looked "modern".

The more I looked, three things I didn't like stood out:

Fuel tankage would have been an issue in virtually all of them,
The pilot house was often not separate and behind and above the salon, but conducive to night travel.
The engine rooms were all very small with limited access. The engines were also Yamar or Volvo, both a little too sophisticated for me.

Prices were also high and stayed high even after the crash.

I could see them for a non live aboard coastal cruiser.

eyschulman · Feb 1, 2015

Wxx3 said:
I see your point and like it. 50/50 sounds like too much of a compromise, in that it implies you only have half a home.

The two are not mutually exclusive, therefore assigning 100 points to each makes some sense to me.

The problem is that for each home comfort the boat has to accommodate there is a price to pay possibly in volume freeboard deck space access air height windage beam or weight etc. . Adding these comforts pushes the ratio to the right(cottage) toward your needs or desires but often at the expense of the basic boat design for that size boat. There is no value judgment in a ratio merely a statement of relative weighting of its elements. Put another way if you take a boat that is designed and built to be a good live aboard(cottage end of ratio) then have a NA design a boat of the same length with the instructions to make it the best functional boat dam the accommodations and comforts you will be pushing the ratio to the left and probably end up with less living space beam freeboard and a lower CG etc.etc.

BandB · Feb 1, 2015

eyschulman said:
The problem is that for each home comfort the boat has to accommodate there is a price to pay possibly in volume freeboard deck space access air height windage beam or weight etc. . Adding these comforts pushes the ratio to the right(cottage) toward your needs or desires but often at the expense of the basic boat design for that size boat. There is no value judgment in a ratio merely a statement of relative weighting of its elements.

Perhaps at the expense of what you consider a basic boat design, but others see that much differently. I'll just give one example.

Boat design requirements: Must cruise at greater than 20 knots. Should be able to handle ocean waters in rough conditions. Smooth ride. Twin Engines. Must have at least 250 nm range at cruise and 500 nm range at an economic speed of 10-12 knots.

Home requirements: Must have large master stateroom and nice second stateroom, both with baths and separate shower stalls. Salon with good daylight and galley up. Flybridge to enjoy the outdoors. Suitable for a couple living on for months at a time.

Boat that accomplishes those 100%/100%. Hatteras 60 MY.

No compromise in either area. Now, I know that example is about as far from your tastes as possible, but it very well might be exactly someone else's tastes. A perfect boat is different for everyone.

And for the record, we do not have a Hatteras, just using as an example.

eyschulman · Feb 1, 2015

The boat fills your stated requirements but could it be a better boat if it had less accommodation. Bigger boats make it easier to fill both shoes but there are still weighted compromises not as extreme as in small boats..

BandB · Feb 1, 2015

eyschulman said:
The boat fills your stated requirements but could it be a better boat if it had less accommodation. Bigger boats make it easier to fill both shoes but there are still weighted compromises not as extreme as in small boats..

No, it meets the requirements on the boat side perfectly. There isn't anything more required to make it a "better boat". Better boat isn't a fixed definition or abstract. It is what meets one's boating needs best. What makes a good boat is different for everyone based on their requirements. What you consider the perfect boat, I'd have no interest at all in as a boat, forgetting the other aspects altogether. I might consider it very nice for what it is, but what it is isn't what I'd want.

I don't argue that ultimately people make some compromise, but I think you are overstating the amount of compromise many people must make. Now if they go into the process with boat desires and home desires that are totally incompatible then they will only get a lower percentage of each. But most people don't go in like that. Their expectations and definitions are reasonable. We need to be careful that we don't project our own personal ideas of the perfect boat onto others.

A lot of what we choose is so subjective. I have a friend looking to move up in boats. I know the perfect boat for him, meets all his requirements as a boat and vacation home. Except one problem. He thinks it's ugly. So he's still looking.

eyschulman · Feb 1, 2015

Band B maybe our different perspective here is that you want to measure a boat by your needs a good thing. What I am trying to do is measure the boat by its potential abilities and design compromises whether it be livability or performance and then apply that to needs. A boat that will do two things well such as sea keeping and livability will still have features that show which direction the designer had to lean and adding up the features will tell the whole story. I happen to own a 32.8 ft sail boat 6500lb 9.25 beam 478 ft sail area. When you step aboard you will note low freeboard big cockpit small cabin with no standing head room and many other comforts missing. If you then stepped aboard a Catalina 32 or any of the more common designs you will find many comforts and cottage elements including more beam and freeboard and weight. There is no question that most family people would and do consider these boats the better boat. So when we get out on the sound and we have to tack into the wind I get there in half the time with a more responsive capable boat. now which boat is the better boat and which is the better cottage. A significantly larger sailboat with the accommodations could meet the performance of my boat but not of a similar sized boat designed for boat performance over interior volume and creature comforts. So if you go big you can get adequate boat and luxury interior Walla the Hat 64, that is not to say the Hat could not be a better boat(not cottage) if weight beam freeboard and other changes were incorporated from the get go. And the people designing and building the lite long and skinny boats are trying to address that left side of my boat/cottage ratio. I understand this is not everybody's cup of tea especially on a trawler form where cottage features are very important .

BandB · Feb 1, 2015

eyschulman said:
Band B maybe our different perspective here is that you want to measure a boat by your needs a good thing. What I am trying to do is measure the boat by its potential abilities and design compromises whether it be livability or performance and then apply that to needs. A boat that will do two things well such as sea keeping and livability will still have features that show which direction the designer had to lean and adding up the features will tell the whole story. I happen to own a 32.8 ft sail boat 6500lb 9.25 beam 478 ft sail area. When you step aboard you will note low freeboard big cockpit small cabin with no standing head room and many other comforts missing. If you then stepped aboard a Catalina 32 or any of the more common designs you will find many comforts and cottage elements including more beam and freeboard and weight. There is no question that most family people would and do consider these boats the better boat. So when we get out on the sound and we have to tack into the wind I get there in half the time with a more responsive capable boat. now which boat is the better boat and which is the better cottage. A significantly larger sailboat with the accommodations could meet the performance of my boat but not of a similar sized boat designed for boat performance over interior volume and creature comforts. So if you go big you can get adequate boat and luxury interior Walla the Hat 64, that is not to say the Hat could not be a better boat(not cottage) if weight beam freeboard and other changes were incorporated from the get go. And the people designing and building the lite long and skinny boats are trying to address that left side of my boat/cottage ratio. I understand this is not everybody's cup of tea especially on a trawler form where cottage features are very important .

All very true but both of us are creating a measure of "good boat" and they're both quite arbitrary. There is no finite definition of "better boat." It's all subjective. Light, long and skinny is perhaps your definition of a "better boat" but not mine. To some people, a Nortech of Fountain is the "better boat" because they're built for speed. A 47' Fountain will top 90 mph.

But debates like this are part of what makes it all interesting. We all have different tastes and even different definitions of a good boat. Sailors would say we're way off, that the only good boats use just the wind. But then if we think anchor arguments are tough, just go get into a monohull vs. catamaran argument with sailors.

FF · Feb 2, 2015

The biggest decision , esp for ex sailors, is weather to pay about 300% more for an an offshore capable vessel.

Most , even smaller sail boats can cross an ocean , not one in 100 power vessels can.

What defines Cruising when coming over to the dark side has to be realistically faced.

eyschulman · Feb 2, 2015

FF said:
The biggest decision , esp for ex sailors, is weather to pay about 300% more for an an offshore capable vessel.

Most , even smaller sail boats can cross an ocean , not one in 100 power vessels can.

What defines Cruising when coming over to the dark side has to be realistically faced.

Excellent point since most motor boats do not cross big open water and many spend most of their time on a hook or at a dock. what defines a good inland and costal boat may be very different than a ocean hopper. For example why have huge tanks to carry ageing fuel if you are always a few miles from a pump etc etc. The best boat is one that closely matches it's use patterns. Because a boat like a NH or KK has long range and can cross open water does not necessarily translate to being a good boat for other use.

LRC58Fan · Feb 3, 2015

FF said:
The biggest decision , esp for ex sailors, is weather to pay about 300% more for an an offshore capable vessel.

I'm not sure if this is true - I haven't done an exhaustive analysis on costs yet (I'm a sailer also moving to power) - but it seems like in some boats the cost is not 300% greater for the offshore-capable vessel (though it may be for some boats certainly). Specifically it seems more true for fiberglass boats like Nordhavn, but not true for aluminum boats like the Artnautica LRC 58.

I've seen estimates on the Morgan's Cloud website Analysis that this new boat will probably cost $600K - which is certainly not 300% higher than a 58 foot sailboat.

BandB · Feb 3, 2015

LRC58Fan said:
I'm not sure if this is true - I haven't done an exhaustive analysis on costs yet (I'm a sailer also moving to power) - but it seems like in some boats the cost is not 300% greater for the offshore-capable vessel (though it may be for some boats certainly). Specifically it seems more true for fiberglass boats like Nordhavn, but not true for aluminum boats like the Artnautica LRC 58.

I've seen estimates on the Morgan's Cloud website Analysis that this new boat will probably cost $600K - which is certainly not 300% higher than a 58 foot sailboat.

"Will probably cost." Am I missing something? Do any finished models actually exist? I'm not sure how one even then talks about it's comparative cost. And what would a similar aluminum boat with no seaworthiness cost? I'm just not sure that it can be used to refute FF's statement.

FF · Feb 4, 2015

Most sailors coming over from the dark side purchase used boats.

There is a very large difference between a 45 ft TT that is a lakes bays and nearby inshore vessel ,
and a genuine passage maker.

WA quick check is to simply assess the fwd windows.

1/4 car glass set in wood or or 3/4 tempered glass in a metal frame.

Wxx3 · Feb 4, 2015

I think to say that a passage maker costs 3 times more or simply to look at the windows is a generalization that does not fit the facts.

It's more an entire basket of things.

Mako · Feb 4, 2015

Why is it that every time the discussion of long, thin, efficient boats comes up the boat has to be aluminum and light displacement? Is it because fuel efficiency is so important… and why is that in reality? Very few boat owners put tremendous miles under their keels and therefore fuel costs are only a small fraction of boat ownership costs.

Since all boats are a compromise I suppose each one of us needs to be as honest as possible with ourselves about which aspect is the most important factor of our boat, e.g.:
1) Fuel efficiency;
2) Roominess and high "cottage value";
3) Comfort and motion at sea and at anchor;
4) Seaworthiness in extreme conditions;
etc.

Since my wife suffers from motion sickness, the most important factor for me will always be #3.

So perhaps a long, lean boat of heavy displacement, made from steel, with a deep draft and deep bilges, would be the ideal "long thin, hyper efficient trawler" in my case.

Wxx3 · Feb 4, 2015

makobuilders said:
Why is it that every time the discussion of long, thin, efficient boats comes up the boat has to be aluminum and light displacement? Is it because fuel efficiency is so important… and why is that in reality? Very few boat owners put tremendous miles under their keels and therefore fuel costs are only a small fraction of boat ownership costs.

Since all boats are a compromise I suppose each one of us needs to be as honest as possible with ourselves about which aspect is the most important factor of our boat, e.g.:
1) Fuel efficiency;
2) Roominess and high "cottage value";
3) Comfort and motion at sea and at anchor;
4) Seaworthiness in extreme conditions;
etc.

Since my wife suffers from motion sickness, the most important factor for me will always be #3.

So perhaps a long, lean boat of heavy displacement, made from steel, with a deep draft and deep bilges, would be the ideal "long thin, hyper efficient trawler" in my case.

What?

Hasn't anyone noticed that of the one trillion boats that have been made, there are about 3 (three) long skinny ones!!!

Please I read this thread for my daily chuckle, I didn't realize anyone was taking it seriously, not even L58, since his discussion was more on order of, how many Angels fit on the end of a pin.

At best, this design appeals to folks who want a sail boat. And guess what, for the money, they buy a really nice SAIL BOAT.

Thanks.

New Long Thin, Hyper-Efficient Trawler

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