But even then he only compared them on one characteristic.
Let's see....Master stateroom and master bed? Kk
Air conditioned comfort? KK
Sleeping quarters for guests? KK
Any of us can pick just the characteristics favorable to our argument.
New Long Thin, Hyper-Efficient Trawler
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But even then he only compared them on one characteristic.
Let's see....Master stateroom and master bed? Kk
Air conditioned comfort? KK
Sleeping quarters for guests? KK
Any of us can pick just the characteristics favorable to our argument.
eyschulman
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Way back when I used to be a multi hull sailor we all understood that adding weight to a multi killed its performance. When big fat heavy cats started popping up in the warm water charter trade we figured it was a local aberration and would not go anywhere. Well now some 30 years later these boats overloaded by our old standards are everywhere with couples living aboard and making significant passages. I don't know that long and skinny is going to do the same thing but it would not surprise me. A lot may depend on fuel costs marketing and how fast people want to cross open water so I wont discount the type or those who are building them. Nigel Irens one of the leading NA associated with fast world trotting boats is heavy into this design trend. For those interested the last issue of Wooden Boat Magazine has an article on this type of design.
markpierce
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My previous vessel was a sailboat with wide beam which provided much stability, the boat having minimal ballast and a shallow keel. Makes me wonder of the stability of ultra-thin motor vessels.
eyschulman
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In order to cope with stability a good design in the long ultra light narrow boat class, usually has a low center of gravity. If you put high cabins and weight aloft what you worry about will be real. A forty+ foot boat with emphasis on the LD/L concept will maybe have Spartan 30 ft boat accommodations. If the design concept is keep pure you can have a good sea boat speed and economy. Luxury would only be possible in large sizes and some have already been built and well tested read Wooden Boat Mag recent issue.
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Long and skinney has 2 advantages , Its the most seakindly shape and can be driven at a higher speed with lower fuel penalty.
As only 1 in a few hundred folks actually go passage making #1 is moot.
As most cruisers will attempt to travel at a low fuel burn the second is very limited.
A 36 ft LWL beach ball will be efficient at about 6K, the same volume in 50 ft LWL skinny boat would be quite efficient at 7K .
Not much speed increase for the huge added dock bills.
But what a ride in Force 9.
As only 1 in a few hundred folks actually go passage making #1 is moot.
As most cruisers will attempt to travel at a low fuel burn the second is very limited.
A 36 ft LWL beach ball will be efficient at about 6K, the same volume in 50 ft LWL skinny boat would be quite efficient at 7K .
Not much speed increase for the huge added dock bills.
But what a ride in Force 9.
eyschulman
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FF the lite version of that 50 footer will do far better than 7K with very good fuel burn. Read Wooden Boat Mag. last issue.
Yes - while the Longer, Thinner design is becoming popular in all categories of boat just because of its greater efficiency - you are right in that we see the bigger, heavier designs also becoming more common.
See here for just the most recent example of this:
Full Details on this new boat here:
Feadship Launches SAVANNAH — the world's flagship hybrid
Thanks for the pointer to the Nigel Irens article in Wooden Boat Magazine about the "Motorboats of the Future - Nigel Irens and the fast and frugal power cruiser by Nic Compton" It looks really good and I'll check it out. Here is a link to their facebook page with and overview and more discussion of the article.
https://www.facebook.com/WoodenBoatPub/posts/10155062300915603
PS - for those criticizing the stability references of the Dashew FPB vs. the Kadey Krogen - it was just a reference to the stabilities of the boats because the discussion got moved toward that issue. I love the Dauntless stories of cruising to Europe in a 42 foot KK - its just not something I would do with my family. More power to him. When I go - it will be in a longer, thinner and faster design.
Actually - you'd be looking at around 11 to 12 Knots for that 50+ footer long thin design. Here are the actual numbers for the artnautica - and the actual speed / fuel burn graph:
Top speed is over 11 knots on just 75 horsepower.
Fuel burn at 9 knots equates to just .88 litres for each nautical mile or a bit better than 4 miles to the US gallon. Contrast that with the average recreational trawler of similar interior volume that has hell to make 6 knots at that fuel burn.
Drop the speed to a bit over 7 knots and fuel burn drops to .66 litres for each nautical mile or 7 miles to the US gallon–a number that will make the boat not only far more economical than any recreational trawler out there, but also cheaper to own than just about any offshore sailboat of the same volume.
Source:
A Real Sailor’s Motorboat Launched
Ah, Richard, aka Wxx3, crossed the Atlantic in the Dauntless, a KK 42, so I guess that is his answer. 
I happen to like the FPB 64s, except the active stabilization,
, but I will never have the money to buy a Dashew boat so it is a moot point. For the price of a FPB 64, I can buy new, two or three of the boats we want to buy. I can sink a couple of boats, not likely I hope, and still spend less money. The stabilization curve is important but it is only one variable in the boat buying decision.While I like the FPB 64, the larger FPB's just don't look right to me. Of the long, thin trawlers, the FPB 64 is the only one that looks good to me. Very subjective of course, and I can see why some people do not like the looks of a FPB at all.. Steve Jobs boat just looks horrid. When I first saw the photo of Job's boat in this thread, I thought it was an office building, not a boat.
Later,
Dan
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11K on 75 hp is a delight , BUT it might require very light weight construction , which gets expensive.
I always figure about 3 lbs per sq fr of hull and deck is required in most boats 30-50 ft long.
Happily diesels are loosing weight although at 75 shaft , its still going to be 1300-1500 lbs with tranny.
Add it all up (seagoing windows 3/4 inch glass or so are HEAVY!) and it gets hard and expensive to stay light and long.
I always figure about 3 lbs per sq fr of hull and deck is required in most boats 30-50 ft long.
Happily diesels are loosing weight although at 75 shaft , its still going to be 1300-1500 lbs with tranny.
Add it all up (seagoing windows 3/4 inch glass or so are HEAVY!) and it gets hard and expensive to stay light and long.
eyschulman
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The lite and long concept like any trend will get overhyped from one side and dissed from another. I think in the end many new boats will adapt some of the concept because it leads to efficiency and sea keeping ability. Not that long and skinny is new it is very well proven on older boats before mega power engines, what is new is the technology and materials to build lite and strong. A DIY builder could incorporate this concept with stich and glue construction and with good plans get a very efficient boat at reasonable cost. I would point out that would be a good boat not a cottage on the water. There is and always was such a thing as a good boat that did not provide luxury accommodations. Understandable that many boaters only see a good boat if the luxury or cottage aspect is aboard. We all have our preferences. I like to start with a good boat for its intended use and then add luxury well short of turning it into a cottage. Others at the other end of the spectrum start with the cottage concept then will try to wrap as much boat around or often under it as possible. For me a Kaddy-Krogan could be a good boat if I took a giant chain saw and cut a 4 foot horizontal chunk out of it lowering the topsides and air height, and the K_K is far from the worst example of its type, just my personal quirk.
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Nomad Willy
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There's an article in the Jan/Feb issue on long and light.
And an anchor debate.
And an anchor debate.
eyschulman
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Ok Eric you must be mad at me. Want me to search every magazine do you?
You are right - it is quite light construction - its an all-aluminum boat. The Morgan's Cloud website had a nautical engineer do an analysis of the Artnautica 58 hull - here are some quotes from that analysis:
"How light is light?
As drawn, weighing in at just 12 tonnes for a 17.8 m overall length, the Artnautica LRC58 is light indeed. Just how light is this thing? Let’s compare it to a few other real and hypothetical boats we might be familiar with. The table below lists the traditional displacement/length ratio, or DLR ( in long tons / (0.01*ft)3), and the modern dimensionless version (LDR, also called the slenderness ratio).
Vessel DLR = D/(0.01L)3 LDR = L/D3
Morgan’s Cloud ~ 312 ~ 4.51
Adventure 40 ~ 200 ~ 5.23
Doral 19 runabout ~ 170 ~ 5.52
Dashew FPB64 ~ 150 ~ 5.75
Artnautica LRC58 ~ 65 ~ 7.6
In other words, the LRC58 is – relative to its length – dramatically lighter than a Dashew motoryacht, and an absolute featherweight compared to a ballasted sailing yacht like the proposed Adventure 40. It’s even lighter, in relative terms, than my parents’ high-performance 19 foot runabout.
The structural engineering will be a real challenge here. This is a very light boat that will require careful attention to weight and structural details to achieve her mission.
....
He’s planning to carry 2300 L of water and we would undoubtedly want at least 1500 kg for food, cargo and personal gear. That works out to a payload fraction of roughly 25%, leaving somewhere between 5.5 and 7 tons for the structure, interior and all mechanical systems. I think this is achievable but it will require discipline (can’t have any unnecessary junk on board), skilful engineering, and reduced margins for error requiring very thorough QC during the build.
For comparison, a Boeing 737 has a fuel fraction of 27% and a payload fraction of 13%. Trawler yachts usually have a fuel fraction in the 12–15% range, with payload fractions also being in the low teens. A Dashew FPB 64′s fuel fraction is roughly 29%, but those boats are 2.3 times heavier and a bit faster, relative to their length and accommodation volume, than Harjamaa’s design; not surprisingly, they also carry (at 12,800 L of diesel) about 3.4 times as much fuel to get a similar range. Long-range motoryachts are not the same kind of animal as their short-hop coastal cousins; pushing the fuel capacity out to trans-oceanic levels means that we’re approaching an airliner’s sensitivity to weight and its distribution.
Source: Artnautica 58—Design Analysis
Just wanted to address the cost issue - while the Aluminum construction might be somewhat higher cost, because the total displacement of the boat the total cost is not so high for this type of boat. Current estimates that I've seen are that this LRC 58 would be completed for about $600,000 - which for a new boat in this class is very good.
The Dashews FPB 64s are around $3 Million for comparison (though a much greater displacement boat so not an apples to apples comparison).
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How many people have been able to buy and cruise in this amazing machine? How can one be sure this is not just a passionate builder's pipe-dream?
Where can one go take a test cruise in one?
Not just in boating, but throughout business endeavors, I've seen tons of ideas, prototypes, concepts, designs and the vast majority never made it to market. Theory often doesn't translate to reality. This isn't to condemn this or any other design idea. It's just to state that the time from concept to production is very long and for most concepts, production never comes.
This is also where comparing to Dashew doesn't work. While a Dashew is definitely not for us, if I did think it was, I could work out a way to actually get aboard one and evaluate it further. They exist. In fact, I'd jump on a chance regardless to actually get on one and further understand it.
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Interior Look is very important to folks satisfaction with their boat.
The fish killers love simple modern , easy to keep clean , easy to maintain modern Ikea style interiors , as do most of the newer Euro boats.
The Dead Enchanted Forrest look seems to be the joy of folks that think endangered species of wood wall to wall and on the ceilings looks fancy.
These seem to NOT be the fast cruiser market , as many are aground in their own coffee grounds , and delighted not to be able to move their water front cottage much.
AS todays computer folks get better , the use of plate cut flat aluminum , perhaps with a rolled chine , will get lower in cost to produce.
A kit of all pre cut parts , a tack weld crew (2 people) and a smart robot welder should have the cost mostly to the pounds of material, and the ft of welding. A 55 ft hull in under a week, easily.
Electrical stuff in channels will ease the install of electrics , and follow on toys over the years.
New spray materials can insulate and sound proof the boat in one shot.
A factory Reman seasoned engine and tranny should have the same or better service life of a new block.
Many commercial or military items , water tight doors and sub compartmenting could be included for little extra cost if designed in.
With luck the day of the cruising cookie boat may be over , except at the real competitive bottom.
Sadly the problem of the owner not knowing what he requires from the boat , and how to speck it will remain.
So beach balls will continue to sell.
The fish killers love simple modern , easy to keep clean , easy to maintain modern Ikea style interiors , as do most of the newer Euro boats.
The Dead Enchanted Forrest look seems to be the joy of folks that think endangered species of wood wall to wall and on the ceilings looks fancy.
These seem to NOT be the fast cruiser market , as many are aground in their own coffee grounds , and delighted not to be able to move their water front cottage much.
AS todays computer folks get better , the use of plate cut flat aluminum , perhaps with a rolled chine , will get lower in cost to produce.
A kit of all pre cut parts , a tack weld crew (2 people) and a smart robot welder should have the cost mostly to the pounds of material, and the ft of welding. A 55 ft hull in under a week, easily.
Electrical stuff in channels will ease the install of electrics , and follow on toys over the years.
New spray materials can insulate and sound proof the boat in one shot.
A factory Reman seasoned engine and tranny should have the same or better service life of a new block.
Many commercial or military items , water tight doors and sub compartmenting could be included for little extra cost if designed in.
With luck the day of the cruising cookie boat may be over , except at the real competitive bottom.
Sadly the problem of the owner not knowing what he requires from the boat , and how to speck it will remain.
So beach balls will continue to sell.
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Nomad Willy
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MAD ....... NO INDEED.
I was just in a Barn's & Noble book store and picked up a Wooden Boat mag, the PMM mag and a car mag. Thought PMM didn't have anything worth reading anymore but was pleasantly surprised.
The meltdown of the anchor debate was leaning a bit too far into the "dosn't matter what you use" category. That was a cut above the "gotta buy a Rocna or you're stupid" that's typical of the boating press. But Chuck Hawley and Nigel Calder are too far apart to have an objective debate. And it was called out as a debate right on the cover.
Found much to read though and thinking there were others w like minds I thought a heads up post was in order.
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This is a new design - though the designer has been designing boats for two decades with leading boat design firms, I believe.
The first prototype of the design is just in sea trials - and the second boat is in production - so its early days right now. You can follow the development and sea trials here:
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Artnautica-Yacht-Design-Ltd/300243140002724
I agree - the interior on the prototype is very minimal - but hey, its a prototype.
I'm sure if you want a more luxurious interior that you can have the builder do something more to your liking - but obviously because of the "Light" philosophy of the boat - it would have to be something that could be translated into this type of philosophy.
An example might be seen in something like the Adastra interior - I definitely would like something a little more like this than the current Artnautica LRC 58 interior - but obviously its all budget driven.
ADASTRA
ADASTRA INTERIOR:
SOURCE:
http://www.shuttleworthdesign.com/adastra.php
FF
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I frequently see 2 companies that have USCG legal spray noise reduction product that advertise in magazines..
The spray foam for insulation would be much less dense ..
As well as a different method of construction the builders would need a different economic model.
In Herrishoffs day the yards would do the books and see at year end if they made the desired profit.
Today builders mark up the boat cost by 25% or more, and the dealer adds another 20-25% on top..
This should go by the board if many more shops can bang out a hull.
And other shops specialize in finishing to the owners desirements.
The spray foam for insulation would be much less dense ..
As well as a different method of construction the builders would need a different economic model.
In Herrishoffs day the yards would do the books and see at year end if they made the desired profit.
Today builders mark up the boat cost by 25% or more, and the dealer adds another 20-25% on top..
This should go by the board if many more shops can bang out a hull.
And other shops specialize in finishing to the owners desirements.
The Artnautica LRC 58 is also designed and built in New Zealand just around the corner from where the Dashew boats are built. So thats were you have to go if you want to test cruise them.
I agree - if you want a long and thin, very efficient world cruiser you should take it for a test cruise. I'm not at that point yet - Its going to be a few years before I get serious about buying a cruiser - but if you're ahead of me in timeframe - Here is where you can do that:
Log into Facebook
More details on the boat builder:
Sea trials of the new Dickey Boats LRC58 | Dickey Boats
http://www.dickeyboats.com/news-and-events/dickey-boats-lrc-58/
Not sure if you can post videos here - but let me try - scroll down to see the video:
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Looks like they launched in a mill pond for that promotional video. Doesn't show much at all.
