How about a thread on fast or semi-displacement trawlers

There has been one boat builder who has looked for new methods and materials. I hate to give him credit but Irwin Jacobs with Carver, Marquis, Larson, Triumph. Former Genmar. Not saying this is they type huge step Art is talking about. But on Larson, he uses what they've labeled VEC, as a stronger, lighter, higher quality construction. When things were slow they also used it in the Marquis factory to build windmills. You can see more at Vectechnology.com. Is it better, a step forward? Well, Larson would argue yet and Glastron would argue no. It is definitely a less expensive way to build. Ultimately he's betting that when Larson, Triumph, Marquis, and Carver are either gone or he no longer owns them, VEC will be his huge moneymaker and I'd be pretty sure he owns it separately and just licenses to Larson.


Another one of his experiments was Triumph. They have a molded polymer hull named Roplene. "Indestructible" hulls. Now they actually do make excellent utility boats as you can beat and bang them in ways that would destroy fiberglass. They do have some issues however. With the prevalence of dry storage, people found out that it was not best to leave them sitting on racks for long times (or on some trailers) as the rack would impact the bottom and alter the boat.

How many of you remember years ago small PVC boats? They may still be around. But for an entry little fishing boat they were all made in one piece, just molded PVC. Were supposed to be a breakthrough for ponds and small lakes.

Art

I just googled both of these terms and came up with nothing.

Are you inventing new words or is there something I can google and learn about.

ksanders said:

Art

I just googled both of these terms and came up with nothing.

Are you inventing new words or is there something I can google and learn about.

Click to expand...

Art is inventing new words....I bet....he is an inventor so makes sense.

I've only known one inventor in my life. Of all things he invented modifications and attachments to industrial equipment. People trying to accomplish specific tasks more efficiently but current equipment didn't have a way so he'd invent something to meet their needs. Not flashy nor headline stuff, but very helpful and important to a lot of manufacturers. He was one you'd say "there should be a way" to and he'd find that way. Most industrial engineers could envision it part way but not figure out a solution.

I think those involved with invention like Art are able to just see the world differently. I see the boat as it is. He sees it as he envisions it could be.

BandB said:

Would it be a different boat? Yes, I'd like to think an evolved boat. Probably a better all around boat, able to achieve the same performance with less horsepower or achieve better performance......

I'd personally consider switching engine manufacturers and at their volume I'd only have one. I have a personal problem with CAT on such a boat, primarily with the noise factor. ............

Are you a production or custom builder? ............

Instead of evolving the Heritage line they've just built the Aleutian line. Volume drops and their response is adding more models each time. ...........

And the relevance to this thread is that if we don't have some builders innovate and do some new things, find some spark, then the boat we're discussing won't be available.

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I have watched the GB line over the years with much interest. It's a boat (Heritage line) that I'd be happy with but not at the price GB demands. For that same money, I can buy numerous other brands that I'd be ecstatic with. Unless something drastically changes with GB, I think we're looking at a dinosaur.

Codger2 said:

I have watched the GB line over the years with much interest. It's a boat (Heritage line) that I'd be happy with but not at the price GB demands. For that same money, I can buy numerous other brands that I'd be ecstatic with. Unless something drastically changes with GB, I think we're looking at a dinosaur.

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So mention those other brands who still build something similar to a Heritage model that you'd choose. And if you know, note where they would fall short of the GB, if at all.

I'll tell you someone to watch out for, now that they have US manufacturing and access to a US dealer network. That is Beneteau.

BandB said:

So mention those other brands who still build something similar to a Heritage model that you'd choose.......Integrity, Solo, Clipper, Halvorsen, Helmsman, North Pacific, etc.

I'll tell you someone to watch out for, now that they have US manufacturing and access to a US dealer network. That is Beneteau. I was aboard a Beneteau Fast Trawler 44 over the week end and was disappointed. The deck creaked under my feet and the joinery was really "vanilla."

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All I'm trying to point out is that GB has lived off it's reputation for many years. There are many other choices out there that are wonderful coastal cruisers that are significantly less money.

U

bayview said:

manyboats posts a nice PIX below showing a FD hull at about max speed. Notice the large stern wave and depressed water midships. You cant see it but there should be a wave forward. That wavelength the same as hull length is what limits speed. To go faster it would have to climb over the bow wave.
PS that in not a very efficient speed because of all the wave making despite the smooth stern water flow.

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Yes and also playing a very important part in the act is the convex bottom aft presenting a curve for the water moving aft. It just flows along until the speed reaches or exceeds hull speed. Then the curved aft section tends to pull the water up (toward the surface) and the reaction to this is that the stern is pulled down. So when the FD hull exceeds hull speed not only is the bow advancing on the bow wave trying to rise up and over it the stern is making things very difficult in that endeavor as the stern is being pulled or sucked down. So it never happens. Actually some very unusual hulls can overcome this with extremely high aspect ratios (long and narrow) kinda like my 18' canoe w a small transom for an OB.

Codger2 said:

All I'm trying to point out is that GB has lived off it's reputation for many years. There are many other choices out there that are wonderful coastal cruisers that are significantly less money.

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I agree with you on their mistakes. As to the wonderful coastal cruisers you mention none of them have made significant inroads into the US market yet. Time will tell.

As to Beneteau I've heard good and bad, many very happy owners though. And the US factory and engineers might help them clean up some of the issues.

Pura Vida said:

Manyboats you stated in#10: 95% of the boats here are semi-disp types. How do you know this?

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I don't.
Firstly and most importantly is that my knowledge and opinions are forever evolving and what I thought I knew yesterday may likely change and many times at that. I remember some of the things I used to say on TF 5 years ago I wouldn't post today. But of course everything I post I believe to be true.

Also I'm not intimate with the shapes of all the hulls represented here or in other boats known as trawlers.

And of course more facts and opinions consumed on TF and elsewhere will bring this hull typing into better focus as we move along. Good weather and bad weather may be viewed by many as sunny or cloudy. But it's not that simple of course ... nor is hull typing. I like to classify the hulls into 4 types .. not three. FD, SP, SD and planing in that order. Semi means "partly" and I personally consider partly to be less than half. But there are many hull types represented here on TF that IMO are easy to classify but many others seem impossible. They just don't fit established definitions or my own opinion.

Also this issue has been discussed on BoatDesign.net and there is argument there among the many NAs and many w far less knowledge (such as myself) so the questions are (to some degree) as much opinion as fact wherever one goes in the boating world.

manyboats said:

I don't.
Firstly and most importantly is that my knowledge and opinions are forever evolving and what I thought I knew yesterday may likely change and many times at that. I remember some of the things I used to say on TF 5 years ago I wouldn't post today. But of course everything I post I believe to be true.

Click to expand...

Damn good statement and well said.

manyboats said:

I don't.
Firstly and most importantly is that my knowledge and opinions are forever evolving and what I thought I knew yesterday may likely change and many times at that. I remember some of the things I used to say on TF 5 years ago I wouldn't post today. But of course everything I post I believe to be true.

Also I'm not intimate with the shapes of all the hulls represented here or in other boats known as trawlers.

And of course more facts and opinions consumed on TF and elsewhere will bring this hull typing into better focus as we move along. Good weather and bad weather may be viewed by many as sunny or cloudy. But it's not that simple of course ... nor is hull typing. I like to classify the hulls into 4 types .. not three. FD, SP, SD and planing in that order. Semi means "partly" and I personally consider partly to be less than half. But there are many hull types represented here on TF that IMO are easy to classify but many others seem impossible. They just don't fit established definitions or my own opinion.

Also this issue has been discussed on BoatDesign.net and there is argument there among the many NAs and many w far less knowledge (such as myself) so the questions are (to some degree) as much opinion as fact wherever one goes in the boating world.

Click to expand...

I certainly agree with that.

But i don't understand your logic on the 4th type. In that, if it isnt a full displacement, as you have defined very well, and it's not a planing hull, then it is somewhere in between, thus a semi planing or semi displacement, though I agree with Marin, that they should really be called semi planing. for many of the reason you have described so well.

When I first started my boat education and search, I had countless dead ends in that pretty much by the time I had read Passagemaking Under Power I understood the differnt hull designs and knew we needed FD,

But that's where i ran down a lot of dead ends.

So many boats are described in some venue or another as full displacement, but they really are not.

So my the time the dust settled (or was that snow falling?) I realized just how few FD boats there are out there.

ksanders said:

Art

I just googled both of these terms and came up with nothing.

Are you inventing new words or is there something I can google and learn about.

Click to expand...

CompFlo™ [CF] material and VibeInj™ [VI] build-out process both belong to me, Kevin.

I've not let them into public view on a general basis... yet. Even Google cannot uncover trade secrets. Thought it worth mentioning on TF seeing as there is such need for reinvigorating the pleasure boating industry. Currently my time is taken up on other new-product business matters. I may reveal what I have for boat building in the future. If an organization with means would like to confidentially discuss beforehand... that might work too!

Cheers! - Art

Art said:

CompFlo™ [CF] material and VibeInj™ [VI] build-out process both belong to me, Kevin.

I've not let them into public view on a general basis... yet. Even Google cannot uncover trade secrets. Thought it worth mentioning on TF seeing as there is such need for reinvigorating the pleasure boating industry. Currently my time is taken up on other new-product business matters. I may reveal what I have for boat building in the future. If an organization with means would like to confidentially discuss beforehand... that might work too!

Cheers! - Art

Click to expand...

All I can say is I hope the best for your idea.

Its guys like you with that inventing spirit that bring on innovation!

The so-called Heritage line of GBs is, of course, dead and has been for some years now. The only heritage GB still in production is the GB52. The GB47 and the GB41 look like heritage boats but they aren't. They are much faster with totally different hull designs (underwater). The GB41 is a pod-drive boat.

If by cored decks and bridge we mean a fiberglass-marine ply-fiberglass sandwich, American Marine/Grand Banks has used this method since day one of their fiberglass boats. A lot of people (including me when we first got our boat) believe that GBs have solid fiberglass decks. They don't. Solid fiberglass hulls, yes. But not the decks.

Personnally, I think what's changed is the boat-buying market, and this is damaging GB and other similar makers more than their designs andn processes. The split between the very wealthy and the so-called middle class is getting wider every day. The wealthy class, the ones who in the past would have bought high-end production boats like GBs, has now become wealthy enough that a GB or even an Aleutian is not what they want anymore. They want big, custom, and ego-stroking. So the wealthy boat-buying class has become the very wealthy boat-buying class, and production boats of any sort are not what the want anymore.

Meanwhile, the upper end of the middle-class is shrinking. They still want boats, but upper-end production boats like GBs are rapidly moving out of the affordability range for them. So they are turning to the less-expensive boats or used boats.

This leaves makers like GB hanging in the gap as their customer base dwindles.

Regarding 3D printing, Airbus is already talking about the day when airplanle fuselsages are made using 3D printing. And since Boeing and Airbus are virtually the same company when it comes to how we do things, I'm sure we are looking into it, too. We already use 3D printing to make a lot of components for our current planes.

And speaking of 3D printing, we just had an application on our boat that has turned out extremely successfully. Our 1973 boat has Levalor venetian blinds in the windows. We much prefer blinds to curtains, so finding that the boat had blinds when we saw it for the first time was great.

To keep them from swinging when they are down, the bottom bar of each blind has a plastic fitting at each end that clips into a metal bracket screwed to the lower window trim. This system works great, but these fittings over the decades grew brittle and began to crack. The previous owner and us wound tape around them to keep them in place but it was a losing battle. And the fittings have not been available from Levalor for ages.

I was pondering making new fittings from wood and a short length of metal rod but hadn't done anything about it.

Then the college-age son of the videographer I use on a lot of my shoots decided he wanted to build a 3D printer. So he did, from scratch. He spent last summer building it (his parents thought this project would be far more beneficial to his ultimate career than a summer job stocking shelves or working in a fast food joint so they let him live at home expense-free last summer). And his printer works.

So more on a whim than anything else, I suggested that perhaps he might be interested in making the venetial blind clips we needed on his printer. He said, sure, he'd give it a shot. He's back in college now (he's also been given a paid internship at one of the area's fastest up-and-coming 3D printing companies) but he had time over the Christmas break to work up our part. We took the prototype to the boat yesterday and it works perfectly.

We need 22 of them so he's going to print us up 30 fittings and our long-standing problem will be solved forever.

Marin said:

If by cored decks and bridge we mean a fiberglass-marine ply-fiberglass sandwich, American Marine/Grand Banks has used this method since day one of their fiberglass boats. A lot of people (including me when we first got our boat) believe that GBs have solid fiberglass decks. They don't. Solid fiberglass hulls, yes. But not the decks.

Regarding 3D printing, Airbus is already talking about the day when airplanle fuselsages are made using 3D printing. And since Boeing and Airbus are virtually the same company when it comes to how we do things, I'm sure we are looking into it, too. We already use 3D printing to make a lot of components for our planes.

And speaking of 3D printing, we just had an application on our boat that has turned out extremely successfully. Our 1973 boat has Levalor venetian blinds in the windows. We much prefer blinds to curtains, so finding the boat had blinds when we saw it for the first time was great.

To keep them from swinging when they are down, the bottom bar of each blind has a plastic fitting tha clips into a metal bracket screwed to the lower window trim. This system works great, but these fittings over the decades grew brittle and began to crack. The previous owner and us wound tape around them to keep them in place but it was a losing battle. And the fittings have not been available from Levalor for ages.

I was pondering making new fittings from wood and a short length of metal rod but hadn't done anything about it.

Then the college-age son of the videographer I use on a lot of my shoots decided he wanted to build a 3D printer. So he did, from scratch. He spent last summer building it (his parents thought this project would be far more beneficial to his ultimate career than a summer job stocking shelves or working in a fast food joint so they let him live at home expense-free last summer). And his printer works.

So more on a whim than anything else, I suggested that perhaps he might be interested in making the venetial blind clips we needed on his printer. He said, sure, he'd give it a shot. He's back in college now (he's also been given a paid internship at one of the area's fasted up-and-coming 3D printing companies) but he had time over the Christmas break to work up our part. We took the prototype to the boat yesterday and it works perfectly.

We need 22 of them so he's going to print us up 30 fittings and our long-standing problem will be solved forever.

Click to expand...

Smart boy!... Smart parents! Smart move on your part too!!

BandB said:

I'll tell you someone to watch out for, now that they have US manufacturing and access to a US dealer network. That is Beneteau.

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We looked at the Beneteau Swift 34 and 44 last Thursday at Trawlerfest and I was disappointed in each. The layouts were nice but everything felt cheap and somewhat flimsy compared to the other boats we looked at.

One of our favorites was a Grand Banks Europa 42'.

Donsan said:

We looked at the Beneteau Swift 34 and 44 last Thursday at Trawlerfest and I was disappointed in each. The layouts were nice but everything felt cheap and somewhat flimsy compared to the other boats we looked at..

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Thanks for writing what I didn't have the guts to write. (It did feel cheap & flimsy. )

I have no doubt of the many differences between the Heritage 42 and the Beneteau Swift 44, but isn't the former about double the price?

No argument. There are some things about our make and model that one could categorize as "cheap".

rclarke246 said:

I have no doubt of the many differences between the Heritage 42 and the Beneteau Swift 44, but isn't the former about double the price?

No argument. There are some things about our make and model that one could categorize as "cheap".

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Is the GB Europa considered Heritage?

The Beneteau's at Trawlerfest were new. The GB Europa was a 2001 and they were having a boat show special on it for $350K. It was the only boat we went back to for a second look. I don't recall the price on the Beneteau Swift 44' and didn't take a brochure but believe it was over $500K new. Not really an apples to apples comparison.

Donsan said:

We looked at the Beneteau Swift 34 and 44 last Thursday at Trawlerfest and I was disappointed in each. The layouts were nice but everything felt cheap and somewhat flimsy compared to the other boats we looked at.

One of our favorites was a Grand Banks Europa 42'.

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I think Beneteau has hit the European Market pretty well and missed the US market a little. The did show an appreciation for the type boat many are looking for. We just have different ideas of the finish we want and the look.

Any Australian here, speak up as to reaction there to the Swift Trawlers of Beneteau.

Grand Banks had the market and people still want their older boats. They hit what many desired, but moved out of the price range most want plus just had a diminished level of presence.

Donsan said:

Is the GB Europa considered Heritage?
.

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Yes, although they dropped the terminology. There are two models of EU today, the 43, 47 and 54. There is one Classic model, the 47. Both of these builds fit under their Heritage list. There are 6 models of both Aleutian and Eastbay.

Donsan said:

Is the GB Europa considered Heritage?

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Europa is a physical configuration of cruiser. Like Sedan, Classic, Tri-Cabin, Pilothouse, etc. etc. etc. American Marine was building wood Europa models of some of its boats back in the 60s and early 70s.

Heritage Grand Banks is the name given to the currently produced boats which above the waterline look similar to the original line of Grand Banks boats that dates from 1966. There are three models: GB43, GB47, and GB54. None of them use the original Ken Smith designed semi-planing hull that was used on all Grand Banks boats until the current Heritage lineup.

The GB43, available only in Europa configuration, is the pod-drive planing boat. The GB47 is available in tri-cabin ("Classic") configuration or Europa configuration and is a conventional drive planing boat. The GB54 replaces the Ken Smith-hulled GB52 and is a conventional drive, planing-type boat. It is available only in Europa configuration.

The "proper" names for the different configuations of all Grand Banks is "Classic," which is the tri-cabin, "Sedan" which is like the tri-cabin but has no aft cabin and instead has a slightly longer forecabin and a considerably longer main cabin, "Europa" which is a Sedan with covered side and aft decks," and "Motoryacht" which is a tri-cabin but with a full-width aft cabin. Some manufacturers call this configuation a "Sundeck."

These four configurations were available in all the Grand Banks models except the GB32 which to my knowledge was made only as a sedan. Owners have added aft-deck covers, sometimes fabric, sometimes hard, to GB32s, which is a nice addition to the boat.

Also the GB52 has only been made as a Europa, I believe. There have been several through the GB dealership in our harbor and they've all been Europas.

All the older Grand Banks models, from the GB32 all the way up through the GB52, used the Ken Smith-designed semi-planing hull. This applies to the single and twin engine versions.

All these models were phased out by the mid to late-2000s except the GB52, which was produced until only a few years ago.

The current (Heritage) line of boats, while superficially resembling the older models, are very different boats.

Marin said:

Also the GB52 has only been made as a Europa, I believe. There have been several through the GB dealership in our harbor and they've all been Europas.

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50, 54 and 58 have been Europa only.

Donsan said:

We looked at the Beneteau Swift 34 and 44 last Thursday at Trawlerfest and I was disappointed in each. The layouts were nice but everything felt cheap and somewhat flimsy compared to the other boats we looked at.

One of our favorites was a Grand Banks Europa 42'.

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I confused the Europa with the Heritage. I think the Heritage is very similar in style to Swift 44. Nonetheless, the GB is approximately double the price, I believe.

We like ours but it's our first boat!

BandB said:

50, 54 and 58 have been Europa only.

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There was also the amazing turd of a Grand Banks called the GB66. Only three were made (thank God) two of which came though the dealership in our harbor. Absolutely hideous things, they all sported fully encloused--- hard cabin not fabric--- flying bridges that weighed a ton. They were Europa configuration, and were testimony to the fadt that some designs can aestheticlaly onlyi be made so big. To my way of thinking, the GB52 just about exceeds that size. The GB66 definitely does.

A good friend who at the time was the lead shipwright for the GB dealership and was involved in the commissioning of one of the GB66s told me that "... the damn things are so unstable you need to turn the stabilizers on at the dock." He was exaggerating of course, but he said that it made him nervous ot walk from one side of the boat deck to the other, the boat swayed so much. I was told by one of the brokers at dealership that the stabilizers had to be on at all times when the boat was underway.

The way-heavy flying bridge house was not Grand Bank's idea. The buyer of hull #1 insisted on it, and the buyers of hulls 2 and 3 liked it so much they wanted it too. You would have thought Grand Banks would have known better, but apparently they didn't.

Only the three were made. One of them, on a GB-sponsored cruise to Alaska, tore one of the stabilizers off on a rock north of Prince Rupert and nearly sank. I saw this one in the Seaview North yard being repaired after it had limped back to Bellingham.

I have no idea where they are now. I've never seen any of them again after the Alaska incident.

Marin said:

All the older Grand Banks models, from the GB32 all the way up through the GB52, used the Ken Smith-designed semi-planing hull. This applies to the single and twin engine versions.

All these models were phased out by the mid to late-2000s except the GB52, which was produced until only a few years ago.

The current (Heritage) line of boats, while superficially resembling the older models, are very different boats.

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I wonder if GB would re-introduce their popular 36 42 classic/ motor yacht versions would the public accept them as in the past. I personally would love to have a classic 42 with NA John Deere's or Cummins 150 hp engines. Simple, functional galley with a need for no more than a 8kw genset. The allure to me of the GB 42 was the reliable systems on board without too much complexity. They kept it simple and for the most part bullet proof. Is there still a market out there for such a boat built by a quality boat builder? I think Beneteau comes close with their swift trawler coming from a sail boat background.

ragin cajun said:

I wonder if GB would re-introduce their popular 36 42 classic/ motor yacht versions would the public accept them as in the past.

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First of all, according to our big GB dealer, the Motoryacht was the least popular of all the GB configurations, although it may have been tied in that position by the Sedan. The GB Motoryacht makes dock access rather difficult as it does away with one of the GBs most popular features, which is the full-walkaround deck.

The most popular configurations of GB were the Classic (tri-cabin) and the Europa.

Second, I don't think there is a snowball's chance in hell that GB will ever reintroduce any of the older models. They have that size range covered with the current GB43 and 47.

I think the only way GB can compete in the 36-42 foot range is to totally revamp their thinking and come up with a new design aimed at the less-affluent market and have it built in the PRC But the competition is pretty fierce in that market, so I think they are already way too late to that party.

My guess is that unless the market picks up for their current lineup of Heritage, Eastbay, and Aleutian boats, Grand Banks is destined for the "once-was" category like Tollycraft, Uniflite, and so on. Either that or they find a whole lot of money and simply buy their way into the less-expensive cruiser market by purchasing an existing manufacturer. I don't know anything about the Palm Beach thing, so pehaps that's what they are already trying to do.

Is there still a market out there for such a boat built by a quality boat builder?.

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Sure, but not at a Grand Banks price point. And not if the boat goes a glacial 7 or 8 knots. New-boat buyers don't want to creep across the water at a pace even a seal can beat without raising a sweat or whatever it is that seals do.

manyboats said:

But it's not that simple of course ... nor is hull typing. I like to classify the hulls into 4 types .. not three. FD, SP, SD and planing in that order. Semi means "partly" and I personally consider partly to be less than half. But there are many hull types represented here on TF that IMO are easy to classify but many others seem impossible. They just don't fit established definitions or my own opinion.

Click to expand...

Wxx3 said:

But i don't understand your logic on the 4th type. In that, if it isnt a full displacement, as you have defined very well, and it's not a planing hull, then it is somewhere in between, thus a semi planing or semi displacement, though I agree with Marin, that they should really be called semi planing. for many of the reason you have described so well.

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We as a people (culture, civilization, whatever) often like to classify things into specific slots -- black or white; A or B or C; individual cubbyholes; etc. -- but over the years I've become more comfortable just accepting that some things can only be described as somewhere along a continuum...

-Chris

http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s3/plains-trains-automobiles-thread-split-18531-4.html#post302859

New thread here. I'll reopen this thread once the dust settles a bit and folks find the new thread.

One element of business we sometimes tend to overlook that plays a roll in this entire discussion. Two ways to make money. One is, you create what the majority of the market wants and you do it at a price that will sell. The other is you create a small niche but then you must provide enough special to justify a significantly higher cost.

Boat builders are missing that first market in the range we're discussing. It is what was once the Bayliner market. You can't have the prices Grand Banks now has and be that volume producer. The only volume producer in the mid range market is Sea Ray.