Transmission oil change question

Wanted to bounce this off experts since it will be a first time for me. My last winter maintenance item is changing transmission fluid in both my Borg Warner Velvet Drive CR2s in my GB 42. I plan to use ATF Dextron 3. My question: to drain oil, is it better to pump out of opening where dipstick goes or to drain from return line to H.E.? Or, does it really matter? Looks like it might be easier to do the pump out.

We change our BW Velvet Drive ATF using a vacuum pump-out system down through the dipstick tube. The position of the transmission fluid heat exchanger means there is little to no fluid in it when the engine's not running and the fluid has drained back.

Transmission Oil Change Question

Thanks Marin!

I also drain mine out the dipstick tube. In my opinion it can't be good to keep removing the lower oil hose.

Dexron 3

Ken

Greetings,
Along the same lines...We have a Reverso pump for engine and generator oil changes. Could one remove the transmission drain plug and put a nipple/valve arrangement on to allow easy fluid changes as well?

RT Firefly said:

Greetings,
Along the same lines...We have a Reverso pump for engine and generator oil changes. Could one remove the transmission drain plug and put a nipple/valve arrangement on to allow easy fluid changes as well?

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Yes. Just had such an adapter made up at my local shipyard to do this on our ZF Hurth for $40.

Unfortunately, Velvet drives do not have a drain plug. I suppose one could fashion a T for the lower fitting, but there may be fairly high pressure in that return line.

Ken

dwhatty said:

Yes. Just had such an adapter made up at my local shipyard to do this on our ZF Hurth for $40.

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Perhaps my ZF Hurth HSW 800 has a drain plug also. Please post a picture of yours.

Oil pump bucket

I use one of these on my Velvet Drive 7000. The small hose gets all the fluid.

JESSEDIVER49 said:

Wanted to bounce this off experts since it will be a first time for me. My last winter maintenance item is changing transmission fluid in both my Borg Warner Velvet Drive CR2s in my GB 42. I plan to use ATF Dextron 3. My question: to drain oil, is it better to pump out of opening where dipstick goes or to drain from return line to H.E.? Or, does it really matter? Looks like it might be easier to do the pump out.

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Yes thru the dipstick hole.
However...let me caution you IF you plan on sending in sample for analysis....there is a magnetic plug epoxied to the bottom of the sump and IF you draw your sample from the magnet it will be overloaded with iron.
I did this inadvertently 7 years ago and was told by experts my tranny was toasted due to the iron content (it was 3500 ppm).
None of those experts even suggested that perhaps my sample came from the magnet. They were convinced my tranny was toast.
I rebuilt it myself and 7 years later it's fine.

I don't have a velvet drive; have a ZF in the trawler and a Twin Disc in the charter boat. On the trawler the gear is connected to a Reverso oil pump system along with the engine and genset. On the charter boat, I remove the return line that comes from the gear cooler where it connects to the gear and simply stick it in a 5 gallon bucket and run the engine until the oil line is just spitting. The connection is a 37 degree JIC fitting on a hydraulic hose to a brass fitting. I always change gear fruid before winter layup immediately after a long run to make sure anything in the gear oil is fully suspended in the oil before I pump it out . Same for the engine oil and coolant. Have been doing this for 14 years without issue.

Ted

Transmission oil change

fryedaze said:

I use one of these on my Velvet Drive 7000. The small hose gets all the fluid.

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That is a great looking approach!

JesseD,
Having just changed my V/D's oil, I would like to mention that the B/W manual that came with our boat states that ATF dextron II is ok to use, but they prefer 30w motor oil. Now I
am not saying that all B/W's are this way. I just thought you might like to know, and yes,
I do pump it out of the dip stick hole.....

Frank

kchace said:

Unfortunately, Velvet drives do not have a drain plug. I suppose one could fashion a T for the lower fitting, but there may be fairly high pressure in that return line.

Ken

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Thats exactly what I did after a failed oil cooler let raw water into the transmission. The T fitting allowed multiple oil changes very easily to be done by removing the plug.

kchace said:

Unfortunately, Velvet drives do not have a drain plug. I suppose one could fashion a T for the lower fitting, but there may be fairly high pressure in that return line.

Ken

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For whatever reason, different Series 70 thru 73 Velvet Drive installations used different ports for the return line. So be sure and check your installation for a drain plug before you change your oil. If your return line goes to the top of the reduction gear case, there will be a drain plug, where many of you have your return line on the lower starboard side of the case.

I don't think they even bothered to drill and tap the return hole in the top of the reduction case on those who don't use it and it's probably not worth the hassle to do it now!!

Rivahrat said:

...I would like to mention that the B/W manual that came with our boat states that ATF dextron II is ok to use, but they prefer 30w motor oil...

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Mine too. I've also read recommendations to go with ATF because the manual's advice is outdated.

Is there any consensus? Or am I opening a can of worms?

CaptTom said:

Mine too. I've also read recommendations to go with ATF because the manual's advice is outdated.

Is there any consensus? Or am I opening a can of worms?

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Mine discusses both.

30wt for slower turning engines, ATF for faster for the antifoaming.

We run 30wt in the assistance towboat (gas 454 engine) and it foams like crazy...also slam it in and out of gear and max throttle it and cavitation the cap out of the prop while trying to free grounders. No issues year after year and the fluid gets changed sometimes every other year..has gone as long as 5...gets about 40 hrs per year torture test.

CaptTom said:

Mine too. I've also read recommendations to go with ATF because the manual's advice is outdated.

Is there any consensus? Or am I opening a can of worms?

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My manual say,

"Type F Dexron and other hydraulic fluids which meet the Detroit Diesel Allison Division of General motors Corporation specifications for type C3 oils are recommended for use in all Velvet Drive Marine gears." and it goes on to say. . . . . SAE 30 engine oil, but not multi' viscosity oil, not to exceed 3000 RPM, blah, blah, blah. . . . .

I've always run ATF, no leak and no problems. You should be good to go!!

Transmission repair folks I spoke with at the Houston Boat Show recommend ATF Dexron 3. They say definitely for transmissions at high speeds, but "recommended" even for my situation, 1800 RPM engine speed at cruise. Also, my trannys currently have the Dexron 3.

CaptTom said:

Mine too. I've also read recommendations to go with ATF because the manual's advice is outdated.

Is there any consensus? Or am I opening a can of worms?

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Our BW Velevet Drive manual, which dates from 1973 when the boat was built, says to use ATF only unless ATF is not available, in which case it's okay to use the same lube oil as the engine but only until the first available time it can be removed and ATF put in.

When we aquired the boat in 1998 we asked the very experienced diesel shop we use if this was the accepted "rule" and they said yes, follow the manual. They only use ATF in Velvet Drives, never engine lube oil.

fryedaze said:

I use one of these on my Velvet Drive 7000. The small hose gets all the fluid.

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This is the same rig we use on our engines (FL120s), transmissions, and generator. It works great. However for the engines and generator, the oil must be pretty warm to hot in order for it to flow up the little suck-out tube in a reasonable amount of time.

We run each engine until the oil filter is quite warm to the touch. Then we shut the engine down, punch a couple of holes in the bottom of the filter (mounted upside down on an FL120) and proceed to suck out the engine oil from the pan through the dipstick tube. It takes about 10 minutes to pull out the 12 quarts, after which we change the filter which by now is almost completely empty of oil.

Goes to show you...manual's from the manufacturer disagree and so do in the field experts.

Reality is both work just fine as proven by members here posting their real life experience.

Marin said:

Our BW Velvet Drive manual, which dates from 1973 when the boat was built, says to use ATF only unless ATF is not available, in which case it's okay to use the same lube oil as the engine but only until the first available time it can be removed and ATF put in.

When we acquired the boat in 1998 we asked the very experienced diesel shop we use if this was the accepted "rule" and they said yes, follow the manual. They only use ATF in Velvet Drives, never engine lube oil.

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The are a lot of folks that use SAE 30 or 40 in Velvet drives because the manual says its acceptable for the low rev high ratio diesel trannys. The previous owner of my boat chose to put SAE 40 motor oil in my BW velvet drive 7000. Probably no harm for a 2.66:1 tranny with a normal cruise at 1600 RPM. Unfortunately the 7000 manual doesn't give the option to run oil. It clearly states that ATF it the correct fluid. The 7000 is rated for 500HP.

I think TF needs a new status level. I just notices I am now a GURU. Marin and psneeld are also GURU. I couldn't polish these guys boots!

fryedaze said:

I think TF needs a new status level. I just notices I am now a GURU. Marin and psneeld are also GURU. I couldn't polish these guys boots!

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I am about a much a guru when it comes to boats as those ground squirrels in your photo. There are guys (and women if you include Peggy Hall) on the Grand Banks forum who have forgotten more about boats than I will ever know. The ONLY boats I can say I'm pretty familiar with are Grand Banks and Arima. And the ONLY marine diesel engine I can say I'm familiar with is the Ford Lehman 120.

What I am pretty good at (because it's my job, among other things) is listening to someone I respect on some subject, remembering what they say, and communicating it to someone else.

At work, I listen to engineers and mechanics and machinists and tool designers and pilots and airline CEOs, COOs and CFOs and airline operations, marketing and maintenance managers and flight ops people and turn it all into things that (hopefully) will help sell airplanes and bombs and missiles and drones and whatnot to people who want them.

In boating I listen to shipwrights and yard owners and diesel shop guys and real experienced power and sailboat cruisers in this area and then pass it on to others when relevant.

Bob Lowe over on the GB forum is a guru. I consider Carl (Delfin) one. Eric (Mannyboats), particulalry when it comes to experience up and down the PNW/BC/SE Alaska coast despite his rather unorthodox views on anchors. Tad obviously even though I don't know him personally. Psneeld, certainly, particularly since he's had experience with all manner of boats and periodially hauls them out of the mud or off the rocks after their owners did something dumb. Rick Boggs, formerly of this forum, knows more about engines and generators and stuff that makes boats go than pretty much anyone I've become acquainted with.

They're gurus. I sure as hell am not.

The TF titles are based solely on the number of posts one has put up. Actually knowing anything other than how to select "Submit Reply" is not a requirement.

Greetings,
Mr. Marin. That is why I've never had nor aspired to guru status. I DO know a bit about boats.

After a discussion with my local Velvet Drive guys (30 + years experience) I am using 5-30 synthetic in my 71 series tranny after the rebuild I did.
In talking with fellow engineers in my company that were bearing specialists, I know ATF is not the best lubrication choice. And the manual does say engine oil is fine at the lower rpm range, so that's why I made my choice.

What was your mans reasoning for OK'ing Multiweight oil (granted it's synthetic oil) since the Borg Warner service manual says not to use it?

"SAE #30 is preferred. SAE#40 is acceptable Multi -viscosity oils such as l0w-40w are not acceptable. The first choice is SAE-API service class “CD”oils. The second choice is SAE API service class “CC” oils."

Like I said, I had a discussion with the "old timers" at my local Velvet Drive distributors and that's what we went with. My BW rebuild manual does not say "unacceptable", they simply say they do not recommend it. There is a difference there.
I also have one BW manual that simply says engine oil. Multi vis falls into that category.
It runs fine, runs cool, and runs quiet after over 1000 hours and probably 5000 miles.

Again one of those TF discussions where reality trumps theory.....

and keep something long enough...like a hurricane lamp and it has gone from whale oil to petroleum oil to modern chemical mixes.

I will bet many Lehmans and trannys can live a long life with many modern lubes.