Fuel Cells

Fuel cells; is their time coming soon, or is it already here?

They are starting to look interesting, because our boat has modest electrical needs and a fuel cell combined with solar panels and maybe a small wind turbine would allow us stay at anchor for extended periods of time and/or stay out in remote areas of the coast longer without having to come in for fuel.

They are fully automatic...would fire up when the solar panels and wind turbine can't keep up and the batteries go down to a 50% charge, then stay on until the batteries are charged. Some have adjustible set points for them to turn off and on.

They are essentially silent, and fit in tight spaces.

No need for a cooling water through hull.

Some of the interesting rabbit holes I've been falling through lately:

EFOY Pro (methanol, available in Europe & North America, proprietary fuel cartridges) EFOY Pro and Accessories | Ensol Systems

EFOY Comfort (smaller fuel cell than pro)
http://www.efoy-comfort.com/which-model

Acumentrics (propane, available in US) Fuel Cell Generators - Acumentrics

Truma VeGA (propane...dealer installed, Europe only) VeGA benefits, tips and answers

WATT Fuel Cell (propane, kerosene...in development) Watt Fuel Cell

Merlin Python (diesel...in development) http://www.merlinpowersystems.com/products/fuel-cell-generator/

Acumetrics vs Honda 3000i (according to Acumentrics) http://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/review14/h2ra005_bessette_2014_o.pdf

SOFC's (Review Article) Frontiers | Fabrication Methods and Performance in Fuel Cell and Steam Electrolysis Operation Modes of Small Tubular Solid Oxide Fuel Cells: A Review | Fuel Cells

SOFC's (Nature) Micro-tubular solid oxide fuel cell based on a porous yttria-stabilized zirconia support : Scientific Reports : Nature Publishing Group

Silence is the really big benefit for boats. Here's one that is in limited production, available in Germany at least. It is all great, it can use a variety of fuels. But the key component, the stack, doesn't last all that long and is unbelievably expensive to replace. So I just can't get one yet...
About Ceramic Fuel Cells

Fuel cells aren't likely to make it in boats, or most other places as well. The reason is that they run on hydrogen fundamentally. Well hydrogen is the world's most abundant element you say. Well, yes but all of that hydrogen is combined with oxygen in the form of water so it is useless as a fuel. You can use electric power to disassociate the hydrogen from the water to make free hydrogen. But what is the point of that on a boat?

You can convert other things to hydrogen- almost any gaseous or liquid fuel including natural gas, propane and diesel fuel. But it takes a micro chemical plant to do it with temperatures in excess of 1,000 degrees, which is why all of the propane and diesel fuel cells listed above are "in development" and are likely to stay that way for a long time. And when you do convert them to hydrogen you lose half of the heating value and for the greenies all of the carbon goes up the stack.

Methanol can be used directly in some fuel cells but it is very inefficient. Overall efficiency is less than 40% and methanol itself has a heating value per pound that his half of other hydrocarbon fuels. So it takes a lot of gallons to make a kwh of electricity. Not good for boats. And how do you make methanol? With the chemical plant described above where half the energy goes up the stack. And price the Foy methanol cartridges, wow!!

So don't look for a reasonably priced, high efficiency fuel cell system to be available for your boat any time soon. Solar, wind and the diesel powered generator will be around for a long time.

David

I'm not suggesting fuel cells may be the most rational choice, but then again, we're boat owners! Some people spend $10,000.00 per foot for their boats, then use them for day trips and overnighters, or have huge twins capable of getting their 50 footer onto plane...where's the rationality in that?

Some people, myself included, might pay more for a generator that is fully automatic and silent.

EFOY appears to be the first out of the gate in a big way, but you're right about the price of their fuel canisters. That's why the propane options are the most intriguing so far. Not holding my breath for the commercial availability of diesel or kerosene fuel cells anytime soon.

As for maintenance schedules, the propane using Acumentrics RP250P (which is about the size of a Honda 3000i) claims, "Annual Service: Air and fuel filters – Replace Desulfurizer canister – Replace Batteries, fans, valves, etc. – Inspect, clean or replace as necessary."

Haven't contacted them yet as to what costs may be associated with that, or how long their tubular fuel stacks last.

http://www.acumentrics.com/Collater...Fuel-Cell-Power-System-Datasheet-Dec-2012.pdf

RT Firefly said:

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Wasn't it a beer can and a banana peel that got him back to the future?

Greetings,
Mr. MM. "...beer can and a banana peel..." indeed it was but bananas are bad luck aboard so, maybe a beer can and a potato peel.

MurrayM said:

I'm not suggesting fuel cells may be the most rational choice, but then again, we're boat owners! Some people spend $10,000.00 per foot for their boats, then use them for day trips and overnighters, or have huge twins capable of getting their 50 footer onto plane...where's the rationality in that?

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Sorry...that should have been $10,000.00 per foot for a used boat.

I saw an Efoy this summer and started to get quite excited by it. When I thought about it and did a little math, though hardly complete, I realized that they had somewhat limited capacity that was essentially "stored energy" in the form of Methanol cartridges. Okay, that's kind of cool, you can just pop another in to "recharge" them. Which starts to sound a lot like regular fuel, just a bit more quiet. Then I realized the advantage was that they generated electricity, or maybe to say "stored energy" that is in the Methanol. They are silent as far as I know. So, for the benefit of silence, I can generate electricity that is stored up in fuel. Then I realized I had literally a few days before just hauled over a thousand pounds of batteries on board....that generate silent power....that is generated by fuel.

So I started down the path of wondering why a fuel cell was going to be a better choice for silent energy than the batteries I already owned, that were capable of storing vastly more energy than the fuel cell? Kind of ruined it for me.

At next haul out, I'm finally going to get the chance of installing a water separating exhaust on my single cylinder diesel DC generator. At which point the theory goes that I will have the best of both worlds in a generator I've been slowly building that would eventually be next to silent.

You really do have to look at fuel as "stored" energy to see the light on most of this stuff.

Of course I still think they are cool, can't help it.

Why this might make sense for us is that we intend to spend weeks at a time in remote anchorages. As photographers, when we find an incredible place we'll want to stay to gather images.

Our boat is only 30' and the PO squeezed in a 100hp engine where there used to be a 65hp engine, and put an extra 50 gallon fuel tank in the lazarette. No wiggle room for a diesel generator.

So, to charge our 450 amp hour house bank when it's clouded over and drizzling for weeks on end with no wind (as is known to happen quite often on BC's north coast) our choices are to run the main engine, carry gasoline and a Honda generator, convert a Honda generator to propane, or go down the fuel cell road.

Note to self: We already carry propane in a fiberglass tank on the aft deck for a LEHR 9.9hp outboard kicker so another tank won't be a problem...should compare Honda generator converted to propane with fuel cells. Savings might justify the noise!

MurrayM said:

Our boat is only 30' and the PO squeezed in a 100hp engine where there used to be a 65hp engine, and put an extra 50 gallon fuel tank in the lazarette. No wiggle room for a diesel generator.

So, to charge our 450 amp hour house bank when it's clouded over and drizzling for weeks on end with no wind (as is known to happen quite often on BC's north coast) our choices are to run the main engine, carry gasoline and a Honda generator, convert a Honda generator to propane, or go down the fuel cell road.

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Perhaps replacing the alternator on your current engine with a larger one and running an hour in the morning and evening is the simplest and best answer. You have the added fuel capacity.

Diesel engines have stood the test of time, fuel cells - not so much.

timjet said:

Perhaps replacing the alternator on your current engine with a larger one and running an hour in the morning and evening is the simplest and best answer. You have the added fuel capacity.

Diesel engines have stood the test of time, fuel cells - not so much.

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Thanks for chiming in

The PO upgraded to an 80 amp alternator, albeit a Yanmar (Hitachi) one. I purchased, but haven't installed yet, a Sterling Power amp to battery charger...which in theory will shorten charging times...a consideration when moving from one anchorage to another could take as little as an hour. A more hairy chested, gnarly alternator could be in the cards, with the Yanmar as a spare.

I'd prefer charging the batts without diesel, if possible, despite having the extra fuel. The inlets and channels on BC's north coast are long, and fueling locations are scarce. The goal will be to stay for as long as possible without having to come back in for diesel.

We once spent two months in the winter sea kayaking from Kitimat to Bella Bella, so "staying out there" for as long as possible is the ultimate goal.

I've heard that life (or researching systems for a boat) is like focusing a camera; you have to go too far, then come back too far, then try again to find the right answers.

MurrayM; It's people like you that encourage new technologies be developed to satisfy a specific need.

A small silent fuel efficient power source would find wide acceptance in many areas. Whether it be a fuel cell or some as yet to be developed technology remains to be seen.

Dino powered generators, solar, wind and batteries are all power sources that have been around a long time. Yes, it's time for something new.

ON most boats the reefer is the biggest energy user.

The simplest fuel pill is the 20# propane tank that will run a modern unit for over a month.

Then only the entertainment system becomes the power hog , unless you like to read.

I'm not a big fan of running propane plumbing through out the boat. Too much chance of an undetected leak with dire consequences.

Acumentrics has a fuel cell that looks about the right size, I think;
http://www.acumentrics.com/pdf-nopub/RP250P-LITE_datasheet.pdf

I'm at the bottom of the learning curve on this stuff. Do the following guestimates sound right? (Assuming the set turn off point is 100%, everything is "perfect", there are no loads on the system, and there is no wind or solar being generated)

The 12 volt DC output of the Acumentrics RP250P-LITE is 20 amps, and the fuel consumption is .04 gallons per hour. If the unit turned on at a 50% discharge of our 450 amp hour battery bank, it would have to put back 225 amp hours to bring them back to fully charged. At 20 amps, this would take approximately 11 hours, correct?

Now, if the propane consumption rate is .04 gallons per hour, and a 20 pound propane tank holds 5 gallons of propane, wouldn't there be approximately 125 hours of operating time on a 20 pound tank?

Finally, if these numbers are true, wouldn't the RP250P-LITE be capable of recharging our house bank from a 50% discharge to fully charged 11 times? (Trying to get the numbers squared away, for comparison purposes.)

If these numbers are correct, and one could go two days (as an example) without charging the batteries, then even without solar or wind adding to the system you could stay 3 weeks at anchor without firing up the main engine, right?

Bear with me...this is where it gets interesting...

Lets say filling a 20lb propane tank costs $20.00, this means (assuming the guesitmates above are correct) it costs about $1.80 each time the fuel cell charges the batteries.

Our Yanmar 4JH2-UTE 100hp engine burns 1.2 gallons pre hour on average, so let's assume it would burn 1 gallon per hour at anchor charging the batteries. With the 80 amp alternator (guestimate alert!) running below full capacity and adding wiggle room for squeezing in that last bit to top off the batteries slowly, it might take 7 hours to fully charge the bank. (Not real world, but just for initial comparison purposes).

That means each charging cycle with the engine, at $1.25 per litre ($4.75 per gallon) would cost $33.25

So, $1.80 vs $33.25 begs the question...how much does this fuel cell cost, and would it kick in enough times during its life to justify the cost, or, even if it does end up costing more, does the **wow, that's so quiet and ulta-modern cool** offset the additional cost?

Are my numbers even close??? This may be tedious for some, but pretty interesting for me

Greetings,
Mr. MM. Promising technology (fuel cells in general) but like a lot of "new" technology, not quite developed enough to become "everyman's" energy source IMO.
These guys have been at it for over 35 years and they're not really mainstream yet. (again IMO). Ballard Power Systems - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Similar to the electric car/boat, battery technology works great in the lab but has not progressed to the point of reliably and economically replacing dino juice.
Energy storage density just isn't there yet.

Yup, you're right I guess, RT...but how would one know for sure without crunching the numbers?

I got an answer back from Acumentrics and he said my estimated numbers were close, but the cost of the above fuel cell was around 20K. Industrial users get tax credits which take a bit of the sting out of that, but it could take a while (?) for the price to come down as the technology advances.

Now...I'm off to find another rabbit hole of investigation to explore

MurrayM:

Your analysis makes a lot of assumptions favorable to the fuel cell case but all of your assumptions penalize the propulsion engine case.

Does the nominal 12V output of the fuel cell follow a three step algorithm, ie does the voltage go up to 14 V as the batteries get charged? I doubt it. So it will take forever to charge to even 90%. The only way around this is to invert the 12V and feed it to a three step shore power charger at about 50% overall efficiency. And your fuel cell charging will probably take 25% longer due to Peukert's factor. So to be liberal, ie favorable just double your numbers.

Your propulsion engine charging won't take anywhere near 1 gph, maybe 1/2 gph at worst. Your Hitachi internally regulated alternator is a poor charging source. Use a high ouput Balmar or similar with a Balmar three step regulator and it will start charging at 100 amps and probably wind up at 50 amps when it gets 90% full. Forget the last 10%.

So the propulsion engine case will take 3-4 hours to charge to 90% and require about 1.5-2.0 gallons of diesel. At $4.75/gal (Caribbean prices today) it will cost $9.50. Your fuel cell will require $3.60. But the real number will be more like $6.00 because if you have to pay $4.75 per gallon for diesel, it will take $40 to fill your propane tank in the Caribbean.

So the adjusted fuel comparison is getting close. A more real comparison is running a 5KW genset to recharge your batteries using a decent sized inverter/charger with a 150 amp charger. That will probably recharge your batteries to 90% in 2-3 hours and use 1/4 gallon per hour to run the much smaller genset engine. I'll bet that case beats the fuel cell in fuel cost.

Certainly the genset costs a lot and I wouldn't do it unless I had one or needed it for other stuff like airconditioning. But what does that fuel cell cost?

David

Thank you David, et al, for your pearls of wisdom. It was with great risk of both scorn and ridicule that I journeyed to your mountain top for enlightenment.

My quest continues...

MurrayM- check out Bloom boxes from Bloom energy. I don't think they will work on a boat but very cool stuff. Also, I think the propane tank I exchange at my local grocery store is, in fact, only 18 lbs although we still think of them as 20 pound bottles. If filled with 20 lbs of propane that is 4.7 gallons.

The tank measurement varies with your ruler.

I see a 20# tank as a month of silent refrigerator and frozen food , no dead batts , no noisemaker , all for about 50c a day.

MM, your quest is a familiar one to me. I went through exactly the same thing with my last boat which didn't have a generator, including all the calculations just as you have done. I found that all my work with the calculations didn't mean anything in the real world, many things can affect a batteries ability to take a charge.

We like to find a nice spot and stay for extended periods of time so the power availability was critical to our boating enjoyment.

Back then fuel cells were like some science fiction futuristic thing that I lusted about, but it was never a serious contender. I'm not sure much has changed there over the years. There was an article in Pacific Yachting some time ago that tested 3 fuel cells. I remember reading it with interest because it never leaves you once you start a quest, you'll always be interested. I can't remember product names but do recall the numbers. Each one was methanol based and ranged from 165 to 225 amp/hrs per 24 hour period. This seemed perfect to me since most boats with smaller refrigerators and a crew with conservation in mind would probably be able to get by with that or at least extend your periods between charging to a reasonable or acceptable level. They were expensive though, I think $4000 for the 225 amp/hr cell plus methanol. I don't recall what the methanol consumption was but I remember that it seemed high to me so probably would require a lot of storage area for fuel.

In the end I went through the boat and changed all the lights to LED (which were very expensive at that time), got a better refrigerator and finally got a Honda generator. It was a beauty, fire engine red, started first pull, until I needed it that is. Should have kept fresh gas available as 2 year old gas doesn't work too well. I considered the propane fridge as FF suggests but couldn't find an insurance company that would cover me so that was out. I bought solar panels but didn't find them to be very useful, they were big and difficult to mount, not much gained from them.

With all that said, what worked best for us was conservation, do whatever you can to conserve and when it's time to charge up, move to another location and charge your batteries as you travel. Change your alternator to a Balmar c/w a 3 stage regulator as suggested. Start with the cheaper things and make your boat as efficient as possible. In the end it seemed the most practical way for us.

Good luck with your quest.

DCBD said:

With all that said, what worked best for us was conservation, do whatever you can to conserve and when it's time to charge up, move to another location and charge your batteries as you travel. Change your alternator to a Balmar c/w a 3 stage regulator as suggested. Start with the cheaper things and make your boat as efficient as possible. In the end it seemed the most practical way for us.

Click to expand...

I'm sure you're right. But just like in epic fantasy tales where someone goes on a quest and comes back empty handed, the real treasure ends up being the knowledge gained on the quest...at least I'm beginning to wrestle out a better understanding of marine electrical systems and battery banks

Oh, and they're still writing about those methanol fuel cells in boating magazines;
Pacific Yacht Systems - EFOY Fuel Cells

The safest and most cost effective portable energy generatingl technology developed by mankind is ably demonstrated by the 100s of millions of internal combustion engines happily at work around the globe.

Given the continual excess of natural gas around the world, whether an IC engine or a fuel cell, the cleanest (non nuclear) fuel generated energy today seems to be methane gas related. Getting the cost effective twain to meet has been an issue for hydrogen fuel cells as liquid energy costs remain low due to increasing supply.

Bump...

They keep squirreling away...this one uses malic acid that is shipped in powder form;

Hydromax 150 Fuel Cell - Hydrovane

"I'm not a big fan of running propane plumbing through out the boat. Too much chance of an undetected leak with dire consequences.


There are sniffers , or you can do as we have , install the reefer on the after deck with the bottles there too.

Self draining. only one connection and hose.

The Brits used the best stove , mantle lamp or reefer fuel,,, Acetylene, which is lighter than air, so a leak does not fall to the bilge.

Sadly in the USA the buroRats decide who can purchase the gas.

I tried for a couple of years to create a safe acetylene generator for stove use , just carry some cans of calcium carbide and a bit of water , but I could never get it foolproof enough.

I saw one of the EFOY fuel cells at the Fisheries booth at the Seattle Boat show this past weekend. The largest one (210 watt) was quoted at ~$6k so the price is coming down, just not far enough for me to replace the generator yet. Interestingly enough the guy I talked with was not positioning it as a replacement for the generator but as letting you have a smaller house bank.

I have to admin that I did not investigate very far since I am not in the market for anything like that at this point. The idea of have a silent (or at least very quiet) source of power production was interesting.

Marty....................

The fuel cell charges continuously. It does not come on like a genset, as soon as it detects a draw it comes on so you don't need a huge pile of amps like a genset to charge half-charged batteries as they are constantly being topped up, just like your main engine and your start battery. A 2 US gallon methanol tank lasts from 20-30 days with continuous running (you are on the hook running your fridge or inverter) and the end result (exhaust) is about a litre of distilled water that you can put in your batteries. You do not need a battery charger for the battery bank, you connect the cell directly to the batteries.

A tank of methanol is about $75 and for a summer, I would guess you might use three? No burnt diesel, no engine parts, engine maintenance, noise in an anchorage or smoke. No oil changes, water pump impellers, zincs, filters etc. etc.

You can put it anywhere in a boat and the engine room too if its not too hot. Needs cooling air, all you hear is a small cooling fan and a fuel pump. Weighs about 10#. It shuts off automatically if you start another charging source so it will last a lot longer than a month if you are on the move lots. I would mount mine inside the old Onan sound shield and pipe fresh air into it.

I would kill for one! My Onan would just be a couple of bubbles rising in the water next to my slip. In Canada, they are about $7000, which is still too high, but the day is coming...I will also figure out a way to refill the methanol tank too. I'll bet with all the ethanol in the US being made for gasoline for cars it will be possible to get it in bulk too.

I wrote something about this a while ago and I was interested then. I'm knocked out now!

The Largest of these fuel-cells are 210 amp hours per day or 8 amps DC at 12 volts.

My guess is that most boats in the 40+ foot range draw much more than that on average.

I know mine does.

Not much chance of deep sixing the generator just yet guys

Just as a comparison my 9 kW generator runs my 150 amp battery charger, and the stove, and the water maker, and the washer/dryer all at the same time.