Batteries
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The friendliest place on the web for anyone who enjoys boating.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
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I have considered this but never tried it. If I could go overnight without running the fridges, I could cut my Honda run time. I'm afraid my small fridges won't hold the cold overnight, especially the freezer compartments. Maybe the placement of a couple of freezer packs would help them hold overnight.
Guess I should try it sometime with something low risk like beer. God knows I've got enough of it and I can always buy ice in a pinch!!
Edelweiss
Guru
Al
I'm sure it depends on the fridge and how you're using your boat. For mine, I've found that it is easier if the freezer is near full. The less air space the better and yes I've packed blue ice in the freezer before to fill the space and it helps. During the daylight hours we're usually fishing, crabbing or shrimping, so the engines are running daily, which keeps things cold.
I also have an 8CF freezer on the flybridge which when full and rock hard only needs to be powered up 3 times per day to stay that way. It's A/C only and I've often thought about putting it on an inverter while we're running. But our galley is all electric, so we run the generator off and on throughout the day for one thing or another anyway when not at a dock.
I'm sure it depends on the fridge and how you're using your boat. For mine, I've found that it is easier if the freezer is near full. The less air space the better and yes I've packed blue ice in the freezer before to fill the space and it helps. During the daylight hours we're usually fishing, crabbing or shrimping, so the engines are running daily, which keeps things cold.
I also have an 8CF freezer on the flybridge which when full and rock hard only needs to be powered up 3 times per day to stay that way. It's A/C only and I've often thought about putting it on an inverter while we're running. But our galley is all electric, so we run the generator off and on throughout the day for one thing or another anyway when not at a dock.
- Joined
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- Now boatless - sold 6/2018
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Point of order Mr Speaker...talking batteries, and how to charge them. Right this minute we are anchored out in Tiger Mullet Channel, Moreton Bay, Queensland, Australia.
http://www.geodata.us/australia_names_maps/aumaps.php?fid=165117&f=164&name=Tiger%20Mullet%20Channel
I chose that place today because where we were the last few nights, there was insufficient wind to drive the wind genny. On the pick we are all 12v, and normally the two solar panels and the wind genny are enough to keep the batts ok forever. However, the last few days has seen a lot of overcast so the house batts were getting down. We moved here to be more open to the ocean for more wind...well we have that, but guess what, the wind genny has decided to go on the blink. I have checked everything, and in the end, it must be the internal regulator. The damn thing keeps shutting down even tho the house batts are low.
The thought of the Kurfuffle taking it down and into a repair shop...probably have to be sent away, etc, etc, makes me now feel, that in the light of experience, especially as we all usually seek sheltered anchorages where the wind will be light as a rule anyway, I would have to say, although I went the Airbreeze way because I did not want to have to run a motor generator, if I had my time again it would have been just so much simpler to do what Flywright Al does, and many others, I suspect, and just go for a simple Honda 4 stroke petrol genny, as it would still be quite quiet, and use the same fuel as the Honda 2.3hp outboard we use for the dink, and all I would have had to do is swap the shore power lead from the dock to the genny.
No, we don't have room for a diesel installation. On that though. Often folk raise concerns about the fumes and CO output from portable types, and although putting it out on the duckboard, (swim step to US people), solves that, I wonder is it possible to cut the noise to other boats by having it in the cockpit, but ducting the exhaust somehow out a scupper..? I've noticed when folk run theirs out on the board, or up on a raised open deck they are still a bit noisy. If you can solve that issue, then they are attractive, not only in their simplicity, but you have to have petrol (gas) on board for the dink, and they are so easy to transport they give you a back-up genny for home, and also camping use.
Al...anyone.
PS. Sorry about the semi-thread hijack, but it's not really, because batteries and how to charge them are like a horse and cart really, you can't have one without the other.
http://www.geodata.us/australia_names_maps/aumaps.php?fid=165117&f=164&name=Tiger%20Mullet%20Channel
I chose that place today because where we were the last few nights, there was insufficient wind to drive the wind genny. On the pick we are all 12v, and normally the two solar panels and the wind genny are enough to keep the batts ok forever. However, the last few days has seen a lot of overcast so the house batts were getting down. We moved here to be more open to the ocean for more wind...well we have that, but guess what, the wind genny has decided to go on the blink. I have checked everything, and in the end, it must be the internal regulator. The damn thing keeps shutting down even tho the house batts are low.
The thought of the Kurfuffle taking it down and into a repair shop...probably have to be sent away, etc, etc, makes me now feel, that in the light of experience, especially as we all usually seek sheltered anchorages where the wind will be light as a rule anyway, I would have to say, although I went the Airbreeze way because I did not want to have to run a motor generator, if I had my time again it would have been just so much simpler to do what Flywright Al does, and many others, I suspect, and just go for a simple Honda 4 stroke petrol genny, as it would still be quite quiet, and use the same fuel as the Honda 2.3hp outboard we use for the dink, and all I would have had to do is swap the shore power lead from the dock to the genny.
No, we don't have room for a diesel installation. On that though. Often folk raise concerns about the fumes and CO output from portable types, and although putting it out on the duckboard, (swim step to US people), solves that, I wonder is it possible to cut the noise to other boats by having it in the cockpit, but ducting the exhaust somehow out a scupper..? I've noticed when folk run theirs out on the board, or up on a raised open deck they are still a bit noisy. If you can solve that issue, then they are attractive, not only in their simplicity, but you have to have petrol (gas) on board for the dink, and they are so easy to transport they give you a back-up genny for home, and also camping use.
Al...anyone.
PS. Sorry about the semi-thread hijack, but it's not really, because batteries and how to charge them are like a horse and cart really, you can't have one without the other.
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FF
Guru
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>What is the difference of running your batteries down to 50% with DC lights and other DC loads or running it down to 50% with DC loads and an inverter?<
TIME, An inverter will run the bank down quickly , so hopefully it will be discharged for a short time before the recharge.
A slow load will have the batt set well discharged for a far longer time befor the recharge is started.
This leaves more time for sulphation
Either way batts have a limit to the number of times they can be deeply discharge , not measured in years , just discharge depth and cycles. See Trojan web site.
Recharging is REQUIRED to 100% to get the mfg number of charge cycles , which with out a solar or power pole is doubtful on any boat.
The last 10-15% takes a LONG time to get pushed back in (SOC 85% o 90% to 100% )..
Most cruisers accept the loss of capacity and will size the bat set so they can live comfortably between 50% and 85% , and also accept the shortened life from not fully charging.
A desulfation device helps If you have the extra power and live 50-85 SOC life style
TIME, An inverter will run the bank down quickly , so hopefully it will be discharged for a short time before the recharge.
A slow load will have the batt set well discharged for a far longer time befor the recharge is started.
This leaves more time for sulphation
Either way batts have a limit to the number of times they can be deeply discharge , not measured in years , just discharge depth and cycles. See Trojan web site.
Recharging is REQUIRED to 100% to get the mfg number of charge cycles , which with out a solar or power pole is doubtful on any boat.
The last 10-15% takes a LONG time to get pushed back in (SOC 85% o 90% to 100% )..
Most cruisers accept the loss of capacity and will size the bat set so they can live comfortably between 50% and 85% , and also accept the shortened life from not fully charging.
A desulfation device helps If you have the extra power and live 50-85 SOC life style
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Rogerh
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Thanks for the replies. On a large boat like ours it is really hard to get it to run straight DC. Really wish I could but it would cost a fortune to get there. The Jefferson MY were made to run the gen all the time. We don't like doing that so we installed a house bank of three 4Ds and a Magnum 2500. The magnum is connected to the microwave, the fridges and the salon outlets for lights. In this configuration we would run the bats down to 50% over night if I was really careful. I hated the playing with things to keep it at that. Ice blocks in fridge and shutting down etc. We now have replaced the large galley AC house type side by side fridge with a Vitrofrigo DC/AC unit. This was our main power stealer. Now we are running down the bats to about 70% to 80%. What a difference. The salon fridge is much more efficient than the one in the galley but it would be the next one to replace if the boat bucks were there. But I would rather use the bucks for cruising and our usage now is much better and works without doing any tricks. Gen for 2 to 3 hours in the evening and same in the morning. Charge back up to 100% on the SOC so hopefully we will have bats that last along time. If not five years works for us given what we are running. Engine batteries are totally separate of the house bank. Gen also has it's own battery.
chester613
Senior Member
batteries
IMO, the absolute BEST info on battery banks is Nigel Calder's book. There are several chapters on proper maintenance and care of your battery bank. How to test, how to get the most efficiency and all that. It made a difference for me. I get 7 years vs. 5 years from my batteries. Proper maintenance is extremely important. Go on line, it's a $50.00 book and well worth it.
IMO, the absolute BEST info on battery banks is Nigel Calder's book. There are several chapters on proper maintenance and care of your battery bank. How to test, how to get the most efficiency and all that. It made a difference for me. I get 7 years vs. 5 years from my batteries. Proper maintenance is extremely important. Go on line, it's a $50.00 book and well worth it.
- Joined
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I've tried several locations onboard for my Honda and most have advantages and disadvantages. The last place I'd try is the cockpit due to the excessive noise and CO concerns. There are folks who have modified the exhaust with extensions to discharge the exhaust up high or just below the surface of the water. I have not tried this, but imagine the exhaust bubbling would be bothersome.
I run mine from a FB bench seat. The FB is not enclosed and only has loose canvas sides with plenty of ventilation. It is less noisy there and the exhaust disperses easily. I have a dedicated 30A power cord which plugs into the generator. It's secured with a locking cable and bungee cord and can be refueled in place. A fitted cover protects it when not in use.
I've run it on the swimstep, but it gets in the way when using the swimstep and I still am concerned about CO there. There's also the issue of sea water splashing onto it. I used a large Rubbermaid tub for a period to protect it from the water, but it was butt-ugly. When seated in the cockpit, it's noisier on the swimstep than on the FB.
Sometimes I've run it on the bow when fishing from the cockpit for long periods at anchor. It's less noisy than the FB when I'm in the cockpit fishing, but it's noisier in the interior of the boat. Also, I close all ports to avoid any CO intrusion.
I have a 55A charger that the Honda runs easily with enough reserve power to run other appliances. If I had a 100A charger, the Honda would probably rev to max speed/noise level and have no reserve for other uses during heavy charging. In regular use, my charger seldom stays at 50+ amps for very long before tapering to lower current levels. For my boat, a larger charger would not benefit me much.
Another option for noise is using an enclosure. This has been discussed here on TF recently and has proven effective for some. I am considering this as the next step in refining the Honda operation.
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BruceK
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Calder also wrote a book on refrigeration.
Be it Peter`s panels and wind generator(yes, I know the power may go via the batteries, but you can feed direct off the regulator), be it propane/LPG, or 240v genset driven or engine driven eutectics which will hold 10-12 hours, the best answer to battery well being is getting refrigeration off the batteries.
Be it Peter`s panels and wind generator(yes, I know the power may go via the batteries, but you can feed direct off the regulator), be it propane/LPG, or 240v genset driven or engine driven eutectics which will hold 10-12 hours, the best answer to battery well being is getting refrigeration off the batteries.
FF
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In the Carib many of the old charter tubs simply have the noisemaker in the shore boat.
A 17 ft whaler with a 50 ft power hose is towed aft , little diesel stink or noise, at least for the charter swells..
>Well sorry but if I had to run my generator while I was running my inverter. What's the point of an inverter? <
If the noisemaker is properly sized to operate at close to full load , for efficiency and longevity purposes , using a pass thru inverter will allow short overloads with no problem.
If you need 3.5KW an inverter boost is far better in the long run than simply installing 6KW of noisemaker, instead of 4KW.
>On a large boat like ours it is really hard to get it to run straight DC. Really wish I could but it would cost a fortune to get there<
You can get very close with LED for lights , a vehicle radio , and all the other DC power savers. Fantastic fans work well and are quiet.
Be sure to have a second smaller inverter , not a big 2KW or 4KW unit to power these minor loads lighting as inverter loss is related to inverter capacity ,
A 4KW running at minor loads may only be 70% efficient a 1KW can be closer to 90%+.
Dig in the Mfg web site to see efficiency at partial loading.
A 17 ft whaler with a 50 ft power hose is towed aft , little diesel stink or noise, at least for the charter swells..
>Well sorry but if I had to run my generator while I was running my inverter. What's the point of an inverter? <
If the noisemaker is properly sized to operate at close to full load , for efficiency and longevity purposes , using a pass thru inverter will allow short overloads with no problem.
If you need 3.5KW an inverter boost is far better in the long run than simply installing 6KW of noisemaker, instead of 4KW.
>On a large boat like ours it is really hard to get it to run straight DC. Really wish I could but it would cost a fortune to get there<
You can get very close with LED for lights , a vehicle radio , and all the other DC power savers. Fantastic fans work well and are quiet.
Be sure to have a second smaller inverter , not a big 2KW or 4KW unit to power these minor loads lighting as inverter loss is related to inverter capacity ,
A 4KW running at minor loads may only be 70% efficient a 1KW can be closer to 90%+.
Dig in the Mfg web site to see efficiency at partial loading.
- Joined
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I was out fishing on anchor with Giggitoni this weekend and decided to try this out. I loaded the fridges and placed ice packs in each freezer compartment. The built-in Norcold was full and the countertop fridge had a full freezer and a 1/3 full fridge.
Before going to bed, I recorded the house bank SOC at 91.7%, turned off the inverter powering the apartment size countertop fridge and flipped off the CB controlling the 12V power to the built-in Norcold. I normally keep a temp sensor in the countertop fridge and left it in place for the test. It normally reads a consistent 38-40*F.
I typically lose 10-15% overnight with the fridges running. The next morning I woke to a fridge temp of 40*F and a SOC on the house bank of 89.6%...about a 2% drop in SOC!! After the fridges ran for a while, I pulled the trays below the freezers and checked for water/ice. The countertop model had four small frozen spots of ice about the size of a quarter and none from the Norcold.
That's quite an improvement with no notable loss in core temp. I'll start adopting this as my new SOP when anchoring out.
Thanks for the suggestion, Edelweiss! I think I'll name my little white fridge after you. This gives new meaning to the song's lyrics...
Edelweiss, Edelweiss
Every morning you greet me
Small and white
Clean and bright
You look happy to meet me
(Seen in the background here)
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Edelweiss
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Larry I know you'll take great comfort in knowing that, when on my boat, I'll think of you every morning!!
Cheers!!
Cheers!!
Capt.Bill11
Guru
LOL You've actually seen that? Many times? Do you have any pictures?
So what do they do with the Genset boat when they anchor? Just let it drift around them with a running Genset in it? I'll bet that would make the other boats anchored near by less than pleased.
You're kidding about this right?
Edelweiss
Guru
I'm getting used to it now. I can't tell you how many times people walking down the dock, see the name, and start singing the song.
I even had one couple from Germany approach asking me questions in German. I answered him in Spanish of course and his Spanish was even worse than mine!! LOL
psneeld
Guru
A generic question....
If a fridge or freezer doesn't need to run because the actual temp remains below the set temp.....how much more should that appliance run and drain the batts?
Is it really effective in turning off the appliance if it should never kick back on to begin with?
I have never noticed a different either way....
If a fridge or freezer doesn't need to run because the actual temp remains below the set temp.....how much more should that appliance run and drain the batts?
Is it really effective in turning off the appliance if it should never kick back on to begin with?
I have never noticed a different either way....
Edelweiss
Guru
I'm pretty sure it was "99 Bottle of Beer On The Wall", FlyWright's favorite too!
That why my boat is bow in now!! You party hounds sitting on the bow of Mary's boat whooping it up keep me up. Ha
Is your boat in the Port now or somewhere else?
Capt.Bill11
Guru
That would all depend on how well the unit is insulated, how good the thermostat is, the ambient air temperature surrounding the unit and if the items in the unit are all at the set temperature of the unit at the time it's turned off I would think.
Moonstruck
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I'm pretty sure it was "99 Bottle of Beer On The Wall", FlyWright's favorite too!
That why my boat is bow in now!! You party hounds sitting on the bow of Mary's boat whooping it up keep me up. Ha
Is your boat in the Port now or somewhere else?
I thought it may be that wonderful little ditty, A Sailor Once Told Me Before He Died
Nomad Willy
Guru
I haven't read every word of this thread but I think someone said that a battery should be charged occasionally ... or when it needs to be charged.
I don't think that's the case. I used to flex or exercise my batteries by running them down and then charging them. I'd let the boat sit for two weeks or so even using some power at times w/o the charger on and when the voltage got down to a certain point (12.4 comes to mind but not sure) I'd charge the batts.
Then my AGM Lifeline batts fell on their faces and I needed new batts. Bought new batts over the phone from the most respected shop in Seattle... Something River brand. I told them about the way I used my batts and they said I should keep the charger on all the time. The batts don't need to be exercised. Keeping them at a constant charge over long periods is ideal.
We boated in Alaska for several years w the new batts and then came south. Here in Washington state the boat's been on the hard for over two years. It's been plugged in to shore power all that time and the Zantrex has kept the batts up. We launched a month or so ago and all seems well except the starter solenoid clickes and seems to be suffering from low voltage. The start batt is an AGM Optima. It was in my garage for a day and this morning it was at 12.7v. Took it to the shop to get load tested today. If it's not ok I'll buy a new batt and if it is I've got a lot of connections to check.
But I think the batts are best kept in a constant state of being fully charged all the time unless you're drawing them down w usage. should immediately be recharged w whatever source is available. If someone thinks that's not correct I'll contact the shop and see what they recommend. Can't even remember the name of the place now.
Edit;
Oh yes the place where I got the batts is Boat Electric on Westlake in Seattle.
I don't think that's the case. I used to flex or exercise my batteries by running them down and then charging them. I'd let the boat sit for two weeks or so even using some power at times w/o the charger on and when the voltage got down to a certain point (12.4 comes to mind but not sure) I'd charge the batts.
Then my AGM Lifeline batts fell on their faces and I needed new batts. Bought new batts over the phone from the most respected shop in Seattle... Something River brand. I told them about the way I used my batts and they said I should keep the charger on all the time. The batts don't need to be exercised. Keeping them at a constant charge over long periods is ideal.
We boated in Alaska for several years w the new batts and then came south. Here in Washington state the boat's been on the hard for over two years. It's been plugged in to shore power all that time and the Zantrex has kept the batts up. We launched a month or so ago and all seems well except the starter solenoid clickes and seems to be suffering from low voltage. The start batt is an AGM Optima. It was in my garage for a day and this morning it was at 12.7v. Took it to the shop to get load tested today. If it's not ok I'll buy a new batt and if it is I've got a lot of connections to check.
But I think the batts are best kept in a constant state of being fully charged all the time unless you're drawing them down w usage. should immediately be recharged w whatever source is available. If someone thinks that's not correct I'll contact the shop and see what they recommend. Can't even remember the name of the place now.
Edit;
Oh yes the place where I got the batts is Boat Electric on Westlake in Seattle.
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