SHELL ROTELLA vs DELO 400

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Depending on the configuration of one's wet exhaust system, cranking an engine without starting it could lead to overfilling the wet elbow/muffler with the result being backing up some water into a cylinder or two.

While I don't believe in cranking on the starter to lube a regularly used engine's innards, I also suspect Ski's assessment is correct in that it probably won't hurt anything enough to be the cause of an engine needing an overhaul.

So if one chooses to do this, they should make sure that pumping raw water through the boat's cooling system with no exhaust present to clear the water will not cause any problems.
 
Marin I've cranked a lot during maintenance and suddenly thought "OMG I must have filled the lift muff. Promptly started w/o any signs of over doing it. With my little engine it takes a lot of cranking. With a much bigger engine and a smallish lift muff it may over fill. A high exhaust riser may keep water out of the engine too.
 
Marin said:
Depending on the configuration of one's wet exhaust system, cranking an engine without starting it could lead to overfilling the wet elbow/muffler with the result being backing up some water into a cylinder or two.

While I don't believe in cranking on the starter to lube a regularly used engine's innards, I also suspect Ski's assessment is correct in that it probably won't hurt anything enough to be the cause of an engine needing an overhaul.

So if one chooses to do this, they should make sure that pumping raw water through the boat's cooling system with no exhaust present to clear the water will not cause any problems.
Click to expand...

Good points, however...

In reality... there are times when for one reason or another a boat's engine has trouble starting or maybe even simply refuses to start while cranking. For those reasons the amount of crank time may reach 10 X, 20 X or higher comparative to the relatively quick two to four times of 5 to 8 seconds each that attains oil pressure via starter action for pre lube of bearing journals and surfaces. Always best to be sure a boat's wet exhaust is set up to handle lengths of cranking for whatever reason.

Note: Following is history on a high performance 1967 Buick Wildcat classic engine; to which I do as mentioned in my posts above. I use this car/engine in both gentle and not so gentle driving techniques, depends on my mood and road/weather opportunities at hand. Purchased this all power/AC “Luxo-Muscle-Car” in 1998 with 71,321 on her. Original owners purchased her new when they were in their early 70’s. Man, they had balls! – LOL Wife was 101 yrs. when she passed. Car had been in garage for 11 years and basically kept up by her son taking it out a few times per year. When I got my “Cat” she needed, tires and detail/cleaning as well as engine, trany and brake service… then my new-monster was ready ta GO!

Sixteen years of "Sunday Drives" flew by...

Summer 2014 I had a decades accomplished race motor engineer (builds race car engines for "Sears Point Raceway" - 30 minutes from my home) rebuild my 1967 Wildcat 430 cid, 360 hp, 10.5 to 1 compression engine block... at 47 years age, 125,250 miles use... bearings had no bad-surface effects, flat tappet lifters had little to no cupping, cam lobes stood proud. Reason I rebuilt was due to several pistons having oil ring failure and three cracked piston tops. Blow back had become untenable. I had him use the best materials/equipment for rebuild to original specs. He told me that he was impressed with remaining quality of engine internals. And, that in 2014 the metals in the new parts/equipment being installed was much improved compared to 1967.

IMO: Regarding classic engines having no catalytic converter in exhaust... ZDDP zinc does continue coating bearings and flat tapped surfaces with a barrier that limits wear, and, starter actuated pre-lube oil pressure rise does help bearing surfaces at cold starts; especially after long duration shut downs.

Please don't get me wrong. I don't perform a starter actuated pre-lube if motor has only been shut down for hours to even several days. I do it when a motor has been sitting for long period of time.

There are three very important items to use with well built, excellent running engines:

1. Good lubrication products – with additives as deemed correct
2. Good cooling system – with additives as deemed correct
3. Good fuels – with additives as deemed correct

Other than that! - - > Go Baby – GO!! :thumb:
 
Cranking and not starting is very dangerous if you have a water lift exhaust setup.

You can fill a cylinder or two, which at least will require 2 oil and filter changes , if nothing brakes.
 
FF said:
Cranking and not starting is very dangerous if you have a water lift exhaust setup.

You can fill a cylinder or two, which at least will require 2 oil and filter changes , if nothing brakes.
Click to expand...

Fred - What happens if a person with water lift exhaust needs to crank several times or more because engine is having hard time starting? Isn't there a safety feature built in?
 
Our boat with twin CATs were equipped with "Pre-lubers." These are electric oil pumps that pressurize the lubrication system before the engine starts, and run for several minutes after shutdown to cool things off. They were installed by the original owner. Man I loved those things--made me feel good just hearing them hum.

Then the unthinkable happened. The port engine preluber pump bit the dust. A replacement pump was very, very expensive and I supposed the starboard pump would fail soon too. I spoke to a very experienced CAT technician about the need to replace or abandon the system. He said the pre-lubers would add some lifetime to the engines but it would be so insignificant for a recreational boater that he thought the whole pre-luber concept was not worth the $$. We removed both systems and I gave up worrying about it. Howard
 
Peters post #81.

"Quote:
Originally Posted by manyboats
Water's great for flowing but nada for lubrication.

The more oil resembles water the less it lubricates.

Eric, since when did slippery become synonymous with thick..? Just sayin'"

It isn't.
Somebody said or implied in an analogy that viscus oil dosn't get to the bearings fast enough and said water's gonna flow faster and protect the engine sooner. Implying that water will flow faster than oil.
IMO oil does mainly two things. Reduces friction but mainly it keeps the metal parts from touching one another.
The thinner oil is best for friction reduction (as long as metal parts stay apart and don't touch) and the thicker oil is best for keeping metal parts apart.
As we've already discussed the oil pump isn't 100% efficient ... but nearly so. So the time it takes for thicker oil to reach the bearings is almost the same as for thinner oil but the thicker oil stays in the bearings much longer and provides better start up lubrication. IMO.
Thicker oil will probably result in slightly higher oil temps from more friction but I suspect only a to a small degree. But the oil's thicker to begin with.
 
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No safety feature is built in to water lift muffler systems, they rely on a knowledgible owner.

Closing the sea cock works , but a remote valve (cable or electric) to drain the can works even better.


*********

For folks that want a pre lube system but dont want to pay big bucks there is the Po Boy setup.

This is a discarded propane 10 or 20lb bottle , cleaned out and installed with the valve pointing down.

An electric solenoid valve is installed after the propane valve is discarded. .

With the engine running the valve is opened allowing oil to enter , closed and the engine oil level refilled.This initially may take more than one fill.

In operation the valve is opened before engine start to feed oil pressure,

the engine is run for 30 seconds or so and the valve is closed to capture oil and pressure .

Since oil pressure is usually highest just after starting , the pre oil is at max pressure.

Cant get easier or lower cost !!
 
FF said:
This is a discarded propane 10 or 20lb bottle , cleaned out and installed with the valve pointing down.
Click to expand...
Wow,that is a lots of oil to accomodate the surge. A propane bottle would hold the entire oil pan capacity on most <300 hp engines leaving nothing but air for sump to pick up.
 
Tony Athens on boatdiesel states that for the many hundreds of engines he has replaced or rebuilt that the failure cause is seldom if ever due to lubrication problems.

If one subscribe's to Mr Athen's theses it would seem most if not all of this discussion is irrelevant. Now let me tell you why your engine will crap out after 35 years due to using the wrong oil --- :D
 
markpierce said:
Ideally, we should run our engines for an hour or more at operational temperature, under load, at least every week.


That's my goal, not always achieved.
Click to expand...

I read an article written by an owner of a marina in Seattle who watched his owners over a forty year period. He had a mix of local, regional and distant owners being those from Chicago and Detroit. He watched the locals come and run their engines almost every week. The regionals monthly on average and the distant owners came for their two week vacations and never ran the engines between vacations.

He said there was no difference in breakdowns and engine failures from the groups.
 
Capthead said:
I read an article written by an owner of a marina in Seattle who watched his owners over a forty year period. He had a mix of local, regional and distant owners being those from Chicago and Detroit. He watched the locals come and run their engines almost every week. The regionals monthly on average and the distant owners came for their two week vacations and never ran the engines between vacations.

He said there was no difference in breakdowns and engine failures from the groups.
Click to expand...

Just to be picky... don't you think the word was might actually be better stated as seemed?

Because:

1. In forty years lots of owners come and go; as well, memory fades/alters
2. Owners who are local and even regional put lots more hours on their motors than those that are distant. Therefore the hour usage before breakdown is skewed.

But in reality... and the reason the word was just might actually be applicable here in regard to the marina owner's observations... just how often do any of us experience a total motor failure or even see others with total motor failure?? Not too darn often as long as basic care is taken on engines. That includes both gasoline and diesel. Jerks who simply beat their equipment and than scream when it fails - Don't Count!

Happy Engine-Loven Daze! - Art :popcorn:
 
sunchaser said:
Tony Athens on boatdiesel states that for the many hundreds of engines he has replaced or rebuilt that the failure cause is seldom if ever due to lubrication problems.

If one subscribe's to Mr Athen's theses it would seem most if not all of this discussion is irrelevant. Now let me tell you why your engine will crap out after 35 years due to using the wrong oil --- :D
Click to expand...

Irrelevant to the OP and most else. Rotella and Dello are probably more alike than Fords and Chevys ever were. Some may have the feeling they are giving their engine the best advantage by using MV oils or synthetic. That good feeling is probably well worth the extra cost and may not carry any benefit to the engine. But a good feeling can be easily translated pleasure and this is pleasure boating. And we all like to feel we're a bit smarter than the other guy and that's no doubt part of the pleasure. And I don't even have to pay extra for the perceived benefit I get from what I do. But whatever benefit we actually get from our favorite oil is so small or inconclusive that the benifit can't even be identified. Except with loads of subjectivity.
 
Weeeelllllll...

We service emergency generators here, which is important for two reasons. First, they start and accellerate to 1800 rpm as quickly as possible (fuel rack as high as it can go without excessive black smoke.) Talk about "starting dry"! The industry standard is "lights out to lights back on in ten seconds or less."

Second: They do this 52 times per year, at minimum (weekly exercise) plus whatever power outages occur.

How many bearing failures do we encounter, did you ask?

Answer: None. We have Caterpillar, John Deere, Detroit Diesel, Hercules, White, Volvo, Mitsubishi, Perkins, Murphy, Superior, Cleveland and LeRoi engines that are all 20+ years old, and none of them have had lubrication issues, as long as they are maintained with regular oil changes and proper filters.

So, guys, I'd have to say not to fret too much about pre-lubricating the engines in your boats.

I'd only recommend staying with the oil viscosity that the OEM recommended, and naturally using oil bearing API standard CJ-4 in diesel engines, but virtually all commercially available diesel oils do that, even the store brand at Wal-Mart.

...and oh, yeah we service one facility that generates power on-site with Caterpillar engines and they have in excess of 150,000 (one hundred fifty thousand) hours on their diesels. Cranks have never been out of them, and they are not pre-lubricated. The natural gas engines go even longer.

Cheers and boat-on!

JS
 
JS

Now THAT post is something I can sink my teeth into. In many cases, our larger marine generators are powered by the very same diesel engines that power some of our smaller boats, but IIRC they never seem to enter into the oil discussions at TF.

I guess I am going to have to re-think the whole subject. Not sure if I will change the lubricants I use, but yours certainly is a voice of reason in a sea of opinion and advertising chatter.

Thanks!!:thumb:

Larry
M/V Boomarang
 
manyboats said:
Irrelevant to the OP and most else. Rotella and Dello are probably more alike than Fords and Chevys ever were. Some may have the feeling they are giving their engine the best advantage by using MV oils or synthetic. That good feeling is probably well worth the extra cost and may not carry any benefit to the engine. But a good feeling can be easily translated pleasure and this is pleasure boating. And we all like to feel we're a bit smarter than the other guy and that's no doubt part of the pleasure. And I don't even have to pay extra for the perceived benefit I get from what I do. But whatever benefit we actually get from our favorite oil is so small or inconclusive that the benifit can't even be identified. Except with loads of subjectivity.
Click to expand...

Well Put!
 
Driftless said:
Weeeelllllll...

We service emergency generators here, which is important for two reasons. First, they start and accellerate to 1800 rpm as quickly as possible (fuel rack as high as it can go without excessive black smoke.) Talk about "starting dry"! The industry standard is "lights out to lights back on in ten seconds or less."

Second: They do this 52 times per year, at minimum (weekly exercise) plus whatever power outages occur.

How many bearing failures do we encounter, did you ask?

Answer: None. We have Caterpillar, John Deere, Detroit Diesel, Hercules, White, Volvo, Mitsubishi, Perkins, Murphy, Superior, Cleveland and LeRoi engines that are all 20+ years old, and none of them have had lubrication issues, as long as they are maintained with regular oil changes and proper filters.

So, guys, I'd have to say not to fret too much about pre-lubricating the engines in your boats.

I'd only recommend staying with the oil viscosity that the OEM recommended, and naturally using oil bearing API standard CJ-4 in diesel engines, but virtually all commercially available diesel oils do that, even the store brand at Wal-Mart.

...and oh, yeah we service one facility that generates power on-site with Caterpillar engines and they have in excess of 150,000 (one hundred fifty thousand) hours on their diesels. Cranks have never been out of them, and they are not pre-lubricated. The natural gas engines go even longer.

Cheers and boat-on!

JS
Click to expand...

JS - Welcome and thanks for expert input.

Questions:

If instead of starting the engines 52 times per year as weekly exercise... or even in closer timespans due to needs apparent (power outages) that you mention... wherein for that short restart timespan bearings could easily stay with lube barrier on surfaces; what if like boats the engines sat idle for months or longer?

Do you feel that in considerable longer timespans between starts that pre lube might be beneficial; or, do you feel that bearings after long times would still maintain acceptable lube barrier on their surfaces?

Post # 93, I say:

“Please don't get me wrong. I don't perform a starter actuated pre-lube if motor has only been shut down for hours to even several days. I do it when a motor has been sitting for long period of time.”

Cheers! - Art
 
Was an Air Force Firefighter back in the day, we jumped in (very) cold trucks hit the starter and floored it out the door on all of our trucks, crash or structural . Never had any problems with the engines.

Oil is not your worry, change it as per OM recommendations, and worry about how warm your wine gets in the cabinet.
 
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FF said:
For folks that want a pre lube system but dont want to pay big bucks there is the Po Boy setup.

This is a discarded propane 10 or 20lb bottle , cleaned out and installed with the valve pointing down.

An electric solenoid valve is installed after the propane valve is discarded. .

With the engine running the valve is opened allowing oil to enter , closed and the engine oil level refilled.This initially may take more than one fill.

In operation the valve is opened before engine start to feed oil pressure,

the engine is run for 30 seconds or so and the valve is closed to capture oil and pressure .

Since oil pressure is usually highest just after starting , the pre oil is at max pressure.

Cant get easier or lower cost !!
Click to expand...


:eek: Sorry, I don't understand. Surely you do NOT add 5-7 qts of oil to an already full pan and then start and run the engine while it (hopefully) pumps the oil back into the jug. The way you discibed the Rube Golberg device it seems that it holds oil and air under pressure and then before starting you dump all that oil into a full sump, huh??

Where do you tap the flow so that this oil charge can both be refilled after start up and still pressurize all the bearings and valves when dumped before start-up?

I am not seeing something here :confused:
 
SCOTTEDAVIS,
Did the engines in the fire trucks have any features that you knew of that helped them run gracefully at full load stone cold? And perhaps they used block heaters. I'm sure they used multi-vis lube oil. Short of extreme cold a fire truck would be about the best example of needing MV oil. And lastly there must be an owners manual for them so what viscosity oil did they recomend?
 
Fire truck companies don't manufacture their own engines...check the manuals of any diesel engine manufacturer.....even my Lehman manual recommends multi-viscosity....unless operating in the tropics or the arctic.
 
Of course ya all know…

We’re pretty much a bunch of stone-cold, old-salt, boat-heads who do things pretty much as we've each come to feel is correct. That said, it is good to read so many others’ ways to fit a round peg into square holes. Old dogs can be taught new tricks, and, even if not immediately admitting to change of operating-manner via learned input… that input does stay with us and in future it may actually get us to alter certain methodologies.

In other words - - > Although I know I’m pretty much correct… I know you pretty much are too!

We’ve all learned to bend spoons with our minds; it’s just that upon each individual's spoon-bend it’s a different thought pattern that enables same result. :thumb:

Boating Life Cheers! - Art :D
 
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manyboats said:
SCOTTEDAVIS,
Did the engines in the fire trucks have any features that you knew of that helped them run gracefully at full load stone cold? And perhaps they used block heaters. I'm sure they used multi-vis lube oil. Short of extreme cold a fire truck would be about the best example of needing MV oil. And lastly there must be an owners manual for them so what viscosity oil did they recomend?
Click to expand...


Some had glow plugs some (P-2b's) had ether injectors for starting. We keep them in stalls somewhat above freezing as the water needed to not be frozen to fight fires.

Cats, Cummens and DDs were what we had

I have no idea re the oil, it was all mil-spec oil in green cans, motor pool maintenance took care of them we drove the piss out of them.
 
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Driftless said:
..and oh, yeah we service one facility that generates power on-site with Caterpillar engines and they have in excess of 150,000 (one hundred fifty thousand) hours on their diesels. Cranks have never been out of them, and they are not pre-lubricated. The natural gas engines go even longer.
Click to expand...

What year of manufacture and what model are these Cat diesel gensets
 
I think most engine can be helped more with a block heater than with a pre oiler.

The less time cranking dry , the less time spent below normal operating temperature , probably the better it is for the engine.

We use a block heater on our Ser 50 DD that starts instantly at freezing (unlike the 2 stroke DD) hopefully to reduce engine wear.

For most pleasure boats its moot, even if lack of use and the usual under loading cuts engine life in half , half of 10,000 is far more than most white boats will see before the breakers or live aboard use.
 
The point I am seeing made here is bearing gap seems to stay lubricated and isn't any real concern long term.

That being said, in the import cars in my neighborhood that I have witnessed go from new to burning oil and smoking because of quick drive offs with no warmup has to be valve stem wear. This does take over five years and longer but I see it happen. The valve stem wear was what I suspected all along and these engines are aluminum. Our boat engines are much better made.

What about oil consumption in the firetrucks mentioned? Did you know about the oil consumption or did someone else maintain the trucks?

Art, to be on record. I thought that marina owner was like mine. A guy that really doesn't go down on the docks and gets involved. Instead he sits in his office and goes by hearsay or whoever comes in to visit.

In my marina there was a boat that sat for 17 years and was full of diesel. He started it and left for Sitka, Alaska. He did go do a haul out first and change oil. A friend of mine drove the boat to the haulout docks. The diesel was still good.
 
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