SHELL ROTELLA vs DELO 400

obthomas,
I had no idea 20W30 oil was available now. What brand?

I also wonder if it isn't the same 30W oil w a new classification that it fits into. Like synthetic fitting into the MV specs w/o any MV additives included.

I know this isn't boat related and isn't PC. I watch my neighbors get in their cars and start them cold and drive off. Most have the car in gear and going before I can count to five. I've been here five years and because of street sweeping days cars go from side to side on the street. Those cars park on my side at least one day a week. I'm talking about Japanese imports less than seven years old. They all leak oil and leave spots. One neighbor had a Toyota van that smoked so bad it left a cloud so she traded it for a Honda. She is the worse offender. I can't count to three and she's gone, usually a two count.

When I was manager at dealerships we were always suspicious of short term lease returns as most never had an oil change. Imports always.

manyboats said:

obthomas,
I had no idea 20W30 oil was available now. What brand?

I also wonder if it isn't the same 30W oil w a new classification that it fits into. Like synthetic fitting into the MV specs w/o any MV additives included.

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You are right. I forgot that some time back I worked through the 20W30 problem and what I use is 15W40 because it is inclusive of the 20W30 temperature viscosity ratings. Sorry for any confusion.

obthomas,
OK good. Don't need to go looking for it then.

Something to think about re the 15W40. It may contain more viscosity improvers than 10W30. It may not though. I'd like to know if anybody does. I would think the 15W40 would have more VIs in it. Dino oils like 10W40 have lots more VIs than 10W30. I think some car manufacturers (Audi?) wouldn't honor their warranty if 10W40 oil is used. I'd like to hear conformation of any knowledge related to this. 5W30 or other wide range synthetic MV lubes probably have little or even no VIs in their product as they may or do meet the MV standards w/o VIs or w very little.
I think FF knows a great deal about the viscosity improvers and the advantages and disadvantages of same.

Our Subaru requires 0-20 synthetic. Anything else and the warranty's toast. My wife was accidentally given 5-30 synthetic when she picked up oil for an oil change. I asked the service department if it would be okay to use it the warmer summer months. Nope. It's 0-20 year round and that's it. The manual says the same thing.

It seems there are two conversations here. One about old boat engines and oil and one about new car engines. My wife's Cadillac says right on the oil filler "Use only Mobil 1" I forget the weight but I think it is something like 5W40. I wonder what I am going to do in thirty five years when Mobil 1 is no longer available?

obthomas said:

It seems there are two conversations here. One about old boat engines and oil and one about new car engines. My wife's Cadillac says right on the oil filler "Use only Mobil 1" I forget the weight but I think it is something like 5W40. I wonder what I am going to do in thirty five years when Mobil 1 is no longer available?

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Use Mobil 2....or 3....or 4.

Realistically, the brand Mobil 1 is likely to outlast the car. I use it on my pickup but boat diesels use too much oil to for me to consider it for my boat. One of the allures of synthetic oils in automobiles is the extended change intervals. Almost all cars with a 10K interval, spec out synthetics.

This is an interesting thread.


For the car side, engines are being built to such tight tolerances that they need strange new viscosity oils like 0W-20 synthetic. They also contain many types of hydraulic control valves for variable valve timing, variable valve lift, and lifters that turn on/off for cylinder displacement. You also have engines (BMW comes to mind) that do not use a throttle valve but instead control incoming air with valve lift. Plus a lot of cars have start/stop features and the ECM measures current to crank the engine over. Many get pissed off if you use incorrect oil viscosity because it thinks something is wrong with the electric assist motor (more strain to crank engine over). Yup...go with exactly what it says on the oil cap or owner's manual. They are cranky buggers.


As far as the 'old' diesels in boats, pretty much anything you buy in the correct grade is OK. It could care less. I don't think losing sleep or waisting time debating it would matter. That thing was engineered to work with oil 20-30 years ago and alot has changed since then. Realistically, just stick to the rating (or one that is above) and the correct viscosity by the engine manufacturer. Easy peasy!


It was said well already...the engine itself will more than likely outlive most of us. The externals will probably corrode or break long before the engine will need an overhaul.

Skinny,
Yes indeed. And that would mean the FL should be fed 30W oil. That's what it was designed for.

Back in the day 10W oil was used for break-in oil only. 10W30 oil is 10W base stock that has MV additives that keep the oil from thinning out as it gets warmer or hotter. But only a small amount. It's not 30W oil that thins out as it gets cold. That may be a common misconception on oil viscosity. In the early days of MV the additives only worked for a short time and then the 10W30 oil was suddenly just 10W oil. I don't know how long current MV additives last. Maybe for 10000 miles but maybe only on top brands. Or maybe 40 hrs. Never seen a test to that end.

But the reason for MV oil is for cranking ease or ability to start in cold weather or the ability to flow when just started up. Like a fire truck or EMT vehicle ... or Capthead's neighbors .. (see post # 62). Our boat engines don't see cold weather and don't need MV.

obthomas,
How long did she keep her last Cadillac? I think you'll be OK.
I have a neighbor that is unbelievable. She starts up and roars up the road (35 speed limit) and is going about 60 about one block from the house. The car she did that most with is now in the back yard covered w leaves and stuff .. mostly just dirt. A Chrysler Concord I think.

But IMO that's the greatest use on MV in oils. Our neighbors and most of the population do mostly the same. Most all folks in our neighborhood go 2 or 3 blocks and then jump on hwy 20 and go 60 .. or more if it's "rush hour". All those people need MV oil including me but I drive down a parallel road at 30 for about a mile after start up and cool down the engine by the same route when returning home.

Don't get too hung up on using SAE 30 because that was recommended 30yrs ago. It is wrong to think of SAE 30 as a "viscosity". That stuff is thick as glue when cold, and thin as water when hot. The viscosity/temp curve is super steep, even using a logarithmic scale.

If the engineer's back then had a lube oil that had a constant viscosity across the temperature range, they would have jumped for joy. They did have multi-vis oils, but the additives did not work that well. They would degrade in hot areas and stick rings, valve stems, etc. So they stuck with the next best thing, the SAE 30 and tolerated the viscosity swings.

Multi vis oils have gotten much better. High output engines like Cummins, Volvo and Yanmar have no problem using them. Some engines still have problems such as the 3116-3126 mechanical cats due to blowby coking in aftercooler, and Detroits where top ring temps get super high- these outliers still recommend single weight oil for those reasons. Even though multi vis has gotten better, it's high temp performance is apparently not good enough for those rec's to be dropped. Or perhaps nobody has bothered testing with multi vis, as those engines are long since out of production.

But if you are running an old Ford or Perkins or whatever, big old iron running light load in trawler service, you can confidently use a 15-40 modern dino diesel oil with no worries at all. Even if a 30yr old book rec'd SAE 30.

Regarding synthetic oil, it truly is better at high temps and high loads than dino oil. But those are conditions not seen in trawler service. And it does not extend intervals in this service either- Great oil loaded with contaminants is bad oil. Good oil loaded with contaminants is bad oil. Change both at the same time.

On a side note: We are probably changing our oil way too often. On my Cummins, it is listed for 250hrs change interval. At around 200hrs, I took a sample and lab came back with a statement that the oil was about 25% through its usable life based on soot load, TBN, and some other parameters. Chemist said I could run 500hrs easy. I gagged on that rec and settled on 300hrs. This is a mix of trawler speed and planing at about 60% load.

The sample is a handy tool for deciding when to change.

Talking about cars and Mobil 1. My 1995 Firebird Formula has 192,000 miles on it now. I sold it to my brother in Houston years ago and it's back in my possession now. It has never seen anything but Mobil 1. It doesn't burn a drop of oil between changes. I have the LT1 Corvette engine in it with a Vortech Supercharger and a ton of mods pushing it to 500HP. The Vortech was installed before 200 miles was on the car.

The car smogs cleaner than a new 1995 stock Formula. It runs like a brand new car. I'm sold on Mobil 1. I use the 10W 30 in the green color bottle, not the 5W 30.

I changed to Delvac 1 (the diesel version of Mobil 1) in my GB42 with Ford Lehman Dagenham engines that say 1967 build. I don't know the hours on the engines when I changed over as the hour meters had been changed and now they don't work either.

I started a thread about the differences I found changing over to synthetic and I'm not going to post any here except to say it is well worth it and I'm sure any Ford engineer who designed these engines would agree it's fine in these engines. It's just a superior oil and it doesn't roll off bearing surfaces or cylinder walls like fossil oil does therefore it is constantly lubricating especially at start up.

Ski wrote;
", you can confidently use a 15-40 modern dino diesel oil with no worries at all. Even if a 30yr old book rec'd SAE 30."

I hope I haven't given the impression I've said one can't use MV or even synthetic in trawler engines. Of course you can and safely too. And when I say 30W is better let me be clear ... it's only because there's only a little bit more oil in a quart of 30 wt as oppsoed to 15W40. And Mark my words I'll never say it's better again because it's not worth talking about other that as an acedemic discussion. I've made my point many times and I'm sure many of you are sick of hearing it. But I think if you guys have convinced yourselves that present day name brand 30w oil is not a thoroughly modern product you've got your heads in the sand. And I may point out that your favorite FL engine guru says to use 30W.

This seems like a mostly theoretical discussion. The fact remains that engines like the FL120 have gone as much as 25,000 hours before needing a core overhaul running on 30 wt oil. This isn't a theoretical performance, it's a real one, and it's been duplicated many times. In recreational boat service it's said to be a 12,000 to 14,000 hour engine. The engine's been around in boats since the 1960s, and again, this is not theoretcial performance, it's proven performance.

Which to me as the owner of a boat with two FL120s in it that right now have a total of about 3,000 hours on them, means that assuming an ancilliary problem doesn't take them out--- overheating, over-stressing, etc.--- in reality I will gain absolutely nothing by changing to a multi-vis or synthetic oil. These engines with proper operation, service, matinanence and repair will run a lot longer than I'm going to live.

The book says to change the oil and filter every 200 hours. We change them every 100-150 hours. Why? Because in the overall cost of owning a boat, lube oil and filters are free and I have never had a mechanic--- automotive, aviation, or marine-- tell me that fresh oil is bad for an engine.

Marin says;
"tell me that fresh oil is bad for an engine"
I've heard re-refined oil is better than new oil.
Lets just say re-refined oil is fresh oil.

In the 16" X 20" x 8 in line Enterprise turbo diesel in a powerhouse in a mining camp in Alaska we used 30W. It had a 300 gallon dry sump oil tank. We had a re-refining machine there, re-refined the oil and used it again. Recovered about 80% of the oil. This was in the early 60s.

It took 24hrs of heating and other preparations to start the engine w compressed air. It started so slowly you couldn't tell the moment when compressed air gave way to combustion to run the engine. The flywheel just slowly gained speed and the noise slowly increased. It ran at 325rpm.

manyboats said:

kchace,
You don't mention what kind of vehicle this engine was in. And those temps aren't really that cold for road vehicles. Never heard of anything like that happening before. In college I drove a 1950 Plymouth to work 10 miles away often slightly below zero degrees F. Was hard to start as it cranked so slow but it always eventually started and got me to work. My 12 volt Mercury would not. But in our boats most of us keep our engine compartments well above freezing as the seawater has no anti-freeze in it and is vulnerable to freezing. Do you think there could be another reason for your bearing failure?

Click to expand...

Sure there could have been another reason, but 30 seconds of even idling with no oil pressure is always going to be bad. My point was more that since your typical oil pump is simply a set of gears in a close fit housing (but not perfect fit) and not truly positive displacement. Until all air is out of the pickup tube the pump has to rely on atmospheric pressure to push the oil up to the pump. Thick enough oil can take a bit to really get moving. Anything that can help get the oil up to pressure more quickly and through the various galleries to the bearings is going to be helpful to longevity.

Ken

kchace said:

Sure there could have been another reason, but 30 seconds of even idling with no oil pressure is always going to be bad. My point was more that since your typical oil pump is simply a set of gears in a close fit housing (but not perfect fit) and not truly positive displacement. Until all air is out of the pickup tube the pump has to rely on atmospheric pressure to push the oil up to the pump. Thick enough oil can take a bit to really get moving. Anything that can help get the oil up to pressure more quickly and through the various galleries to the bearings is going to be helpful to longevity.

Ken

Click to expand...

And so much of the world agrees.....but not all.....

kchace said:

Anything that can help get the oil up to pressure more quickly and through the various galleries to the bearings is going to be helpful to longevity.

Ken

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Absolutely. Which is why we keep the engine room in our boat at about 50-55 degrees all winter. The engines (FL120s) start right now just like it was summer and the oil pressure is up within just a few seconds.

One thing I have noticed is that the 0-20 synthetic we use in the Subaru, and the 5-30 synthetic blend we use in the Ford pickup pour almost like water even when it's near freezing outside. I suppose this is good in that it helps get the oil pressure up fast in a cold start....

Water's great for flowing but nada for lubrication.

The more oil resembles water the less it lubricates.

OMG.....seriously.....

I guess oil companies are idiots for making all those blends....

A classic which came first ...the chicken or the egg....I will bet most engine manufactures said....Heck let's build an engine and hope there will be good enough oil to lube it.

No, I suspect they built an engine designed to be lubed by the oil that was available at the time. Not much point in building something that depended on something that didn't exist yet.....

DeHavilland of Canada did this with their single-engine Otter and they came to greatly regret it.

manyboats said:

Water's great for flowing but nada for lubrication.

The more oil resembles water the less it lubricates.

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Eric, since when did slippery become synonymous with thick..? Just sayin'

I've been running Magnatec Diesel in my FL120 (5w40), for 13 years, mainly because of the proven better cold start wear reduction, and she runs like a top, and still I never have to add oil between seasonal changes unless we go on an unusually long run. Modern oils are better. Thickness when you pour them does not mean much in my book.

I agree with…
Originally Posted by kchace

"Anything that can help get the oil up to pressure more quickly and through the various galleries to the bearings is going to be helpful to longevity.
Ken"

Add to that having as much oil stick around on the metal parts, and that's what the modern oils do also.

>and still I never have to add oil between seasonal changes unless we go on an unusually long run<.

Oil is eaten , used by every engine , as some must be left on the cylinder walls by the scraper ring or the engine would seize.

The combustion blow by frequently matches the oil consumption , so folks think there is no or low oil use.

Then a long trip comes and the oil is finally warm enough , long enough to evaporate the blow by that has collected .

This is why the oil consumption seems to change after a good days run.

This is like a battle of deciding what shade of lipstick looks better on the pig

In previous TF oil/lube discussions, regarding engine internals, I have mentioned that I have my gasoline engines set up so I can bring oil pressure up at first by just using the starter motor. Then I let my engines start, knowing that bearing journals have been "pre lubed" prior to combustion pressures being applied.

Some on TF agreed with my technique, others did not.

I’m confident that extra starter use costs or replacement efforts are minimal compared to outcomes of bearing misuse by starting a long duration cold engine without first performing an electric starter activated bearing surface pre lube. BTW: In all my decades, during most of which I’ve used this pre lube technique, I can probably count on one hand the number of starters I’ve needed to replace.

I also pour in 4 oz of ZDDP zinc additive for every classic engine oil change and another 4 oz half way between changes (NOT to be used with catalytic converter systems). Zinc is a great barrier coating that stays on bearings as well as other internal surfaces even when engine has been left idle for many months. It also is great barrier coating for cam lobes working with flat tapped lifters.

In boats and car and truck… I have had six classic gasoline engines during the last few years. Still have four… sold a nice twin screw Uniflite.

We do not use ZDDP in our two catalytic converter vehicles with roller bearing lifters.

Happy Engine-Lube Daze! - Art

I agree Art,
But I suspect cranking on a diesel should be limited to 10 second bursts w about a minute between cranking. Not many of us carry a spare starter motor aboard or want to change same on the fly. Being careful of the starter motor I think this is a good idea. My engine has glow plugs so I just crank 10 seconds w the glow plugs cold .. wait a minute .. run the glow plugs for 8 seconds and crank to start.

Cranking but not starting- Not sure this is a good idea. While loads on bearings are less without firing, the oil pump is often slower to prime AND the relative speeds on the bearings are lower. Oil film builds with speed, so slow is not good. Oil is present on the bearings from last shutdown, not much but it is there. It only takes a hint of oil to protect the surfaces, but some speed is required to build a film.

I'm not saying that cranking to build pressure is a bad idea, just that from an engineer's point of view, it is not conclusive one way or the other.

On an engine that has sat for many months, then it is worth a prime through the oil galleries, but that is done remotely and not with a starter.

Ideally, we should run our engines for an hour or more at operational temperature, under load, at least every week.


That's my goal, not always achieved.

Ski in NC said:

Cranking but not starting- Not sure this is a good idea. While loads on bearings are less without firing, the oil pump is often slower to prime AND the relative speeds on the bearings are lower. Oil film builds with speed, so slow is not good. Oil is present on the bearings from last shutdown, not much but it is there. It only takes a hint of oil to protect the surfaces, but some speed is required to build a film.

I'm not saying that cranking to build pressure is a bad idea, just that from an engineer's point of view, it is not conclusive one way or the other.

On an engine that has sat for many months, then it is worth a prime through the oil galleries, but that is done remotely and not with a starter.

Click to expand...

Isn't it true that when oil pressure reaches 30 psi on gauge that oil is then being forced into bearing journals... no matter what is activating the oil pump to attain the 30 psi...starter or otherwise. Also, an Item I did not flesh out in previous post: I only crank for a few (5 to 8) seconds. Depending on which engine and ambient temperature, it may be needed to repeat the crank sequence two to four times until good pressure is seen on gauge for at least a couple seconds.

Tonight I read every post in this thread. Lots of chat about oil types and their superior quality or similarity. A little chat about how to reduce internal surfaces' wear and tear during start-up. A little chat about how to keep bearing surfaces coated when engine is not used for long periods. IMO: Starter actuated pre lube oil pressure helps to protect internal engine surfaces and ZDDP zinc additive provides exceptionally increased barrier coating on all close tolerance metal portions.

Cheers! - Art

Some oil pumps are slow to prime running on the starter. So you are increasing the amount of time the bearings are slowly dragging over each other as the pump slowly primes. Hit the start right away, pump primes quickly and residual oil on shells has built into a film even before galleries pressurize. Not good grinding away on the starter while waiting for OP. Bearings are rubbing on each other the whole time.

The good news is that it probably does not hurt in either case. I have never seen a marine engine fail due to bearings in normal use. So both of us are right!!

Ski in NC said:

Some oil pumps are slow to prime running on the starter. So you are increasing the amount of time the bearings are slowly dragging over each other as the pump slowly primes. Hit the start right away, pump primes quickly and residual oil on shells has built into a film even before galleries pressurize. Not good grinding away on the starter while waiting for OP. Bearings are rubbing on each other the whole time.

The good news is that it probably does not hurt in either case. I have never seen a marine engine fail due to bearings in normal use. So both of us are right!!

Click to expand...

Cool!! I agree...

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