Whats wrong with Bayliners?

markpierce said:

Wide, 360-degree decks, ..... and views from the pilothouse

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While we did not draw up a list of requirements for a cruising boat since we'd chartered so knew pretty much what we wanted, we did know that a full walk-around main deck that we could actually walk around was an absolute must. Particularly up here.

As I've mentioned before, we didn't care at the time if the boat was a single or a twin. It came both ways and either one was fine with us, although our view on this has since changed.

And while we don't have a pilothouse per se (although we both feel a pilothouse boat is the absolute best configuration for a crusing boat no exceptions), we both really like the great visibility from our main cabin/helm station. Considering the environment we boat it, having small windows or restricted visibility would be a real bummer.

It's the main reason my wife nixed a sailboat when we started talking about getting into cruising. She likes sailboats, but didn't like the thought of living in a hole with just slits for windows when there is so much cool stuff around the boat all the time.

Including otters.

I think Mark did a great job of selecting a boat that fits his needs and requirements. The single-engine aspect would rule out that design for us, but everything else about it makes it an ideal boat for these waters. I don't like wannabe windows but if the Coot had two or three engines the pilothouse windows are something I could certainly put up with. And if I bought a new one I'm sure the manufacturer would put vertical or aft-raked windows on it if requested.

dimer2 said:

I am headed to Florida as I type this, to look at a couple of Bayliner 4788's, in Crystal River and Miami. (I am also going to get a free cup of Cuban coffee from Parks).

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Careful with that Cuban Coffee with Parks. Last one I had in Parks' store made me feel like I needed an Aqua Drive to stop shaking!

Marin said:

It finally reached the point where the smaller GB programs simply had no hope of being profitable anymore.

The first one they killed off was the GB32.

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GB 32 is a beautiful boat and on the short list for a future boat for us. Every time I hear folks discuss resurrecting the smaller GB's it brings a smile to my face. 2 years ago a gentleman was selling a 2 year old Selene 37' I believe for north of $500K (far FAR below new replacement value) and there must have been 40 posts about how nobody in their right mind would pay anywhere near that for a boat that size. No wonder GB, Nordhavn and other marquis ignore the sub 40' market. I believe Selene has since discontinued the model too.

Bottom line, if nobody buys them new the majority of us on this forum will never be able to purchase them used 10-20 years from now. Fortunately there are enough Bayliners and Carvers out there to keep our kids stocked with 20-40 year old boats when they can afford the hobby.

CPseudonym said:

GB 32 is a beautiful boat and on the short list for a future boat for us.

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I'm not as much of a fan of the GB32 as a lot of GB enthusiasts are. I guess for a cruising couple it's fine. But we have found that the aft cabin on the GB36 Classic opens up so many options for only being four feet longer.

When we are by ourselves, the forecabin is a storeroom/shop. Having two independent heads and holding tanks on the boat removes the worry of what hapens if a toilet craps out (sorry).

But where the GB36 Classic (aka tri-cabin) really shines is when one has guests or kids. A 36 foot boat is not all that big, but having three cabins makes it seem larger than it is. We have done several two and three week cruises with another couple on board, and it's great that each couple has their own stateroom and head with the neutral territory of the main cabin in between. Someone can get up in the morning, go up in the main cabin and make cofee or read or watch the otters playing or go for a walk and not disturb the couple in the other stateroom.

Or if someone decides to go to bed before everyone else, he or she simply disappears into their stateroom and the rest of the folks can carry on with what they're doing.

The GB32 forces one to make up a berth every night in the main cabin for guests or kids. It's not an epic to do this, of course, but when I've been on a GB32 I've always felt sort of jammed together with the other people on the boat.

So even though there are normally just the two of us on board plus dog, I am very grateful we went directly to the tri-cabin GB36 instead of the GB32.

Marin said:

...But where the GB36 Classic (aka tri-cabin) really shines is when one has guests or kids. ...

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As if having someone's elses children overnight is someone's idea of fun.

A big builder making small boats has the baggage of all the extra infrastructure that needs to be maintained for the larger boats. But it's all relative. Open a shop to build the GP 32 exclusivly and building to the bottom line should be more or less easily done. When AM started building the 32 they may have considered it a large boat. So for 32' boats in the near future look to builders of 25 and 28' boats. Builders the size of Ranger could probably do a 32' boat efficiently.

Regarding what I said about boat buyers designing boats it seemed quite obvious to me. Marin of course knows me well and understood for that reason. Tail fins didn't appear on cars because engineers thought they would make better cars. Cadillac did it in 48 and it took off. Not an advance of any kind but people liked them so evolution of the Cadilic went fwd. Eventially it was seen as silly and marketing forces changed the design again. Boats of the 50s didn't have flying bridges but they did in the 60s. Consumers approved and they are still with us.
Engineers decide other things like the location of equipment in a boat, what kind of glass to use, fuel tanks and many other things. So the purchasing agents and engineers may sort of overlap at times but PAs don't design hulls. That's for naval architects as is weight and balance ect. But the consumer even has a say in that too. There is the deadrise V/S performance, seaworthyness and a smooth ride in a chop or even the nasty. Women largely dictate the freeboard of pleasure boats ... don't want to get too close to the water. A low freeboard makes much more sense but you rarely see it .... except on a troller, gillnetter or lobsterboat.

But most of the designing of a pleasure boat is done by the boat buyers dollar.

markpierce said:

As if having someone's elses children overnight is someone's idea of fun.

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I meant one's own kids as well as guest's kids.

We don't allow children under the age of 15 on our boat because any younger than that and they carry every germ and virus known to live on the planet. But since none of the people we have on the boat as guests have children at home anymore kids are not a problem for us.

But some people are saddled with them, so the tri-cabin is a great configuration to have because the kids can literally be sent to their room.

I loved my GB32, my first boat. I became an "expert" on them (sorry) and had to sell mine coz life got in the way. I didn't replace it because I'd done decks, done varnish, done well, everything. Just didn't want to repeat.

When you get your 32, it is perfect for a couple. The engine space is not large and the ladder is great if you're young, but we had a terrific few years on ours. I actually don't like the 36, would never have a twin, hate the flybridge access and the crappy cockpit. My fave would have been a single 42 Europa, but they are rare and pricey. I saw a single 42 Europa with a Gardner in her once, that I would have killed for.

Get a transome gate and a rear cockpit cover.

Marin said:

I meant one's own kids as well as guest's kids.

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True enough but our "baby" is 14 and can sleep comfortably on a picket fence. The other two are seeing the world on the governments dime so one stateroom works. All 3 of them and my wife are night owls so a couple rum and cokes and I'll sleep fine. Of course that's plan A. Plan B is a horse of a different color altogether and is where a Bayliner may be a good fit.

manyboats said:

Regarding what I said about boat buyers designing boats it seemed quite obvious to me. Marin of course knows me well and understood for that reason. Tail fins didn't appear on cars because engineers thought they would make better cars. Cadillac did it in 48 and it took off. Not an advance of any kind but people liked them so evolution of the Cadilic went fwd. Eventially it was seen as silly and marketing forces changed the design again. Boats of the 50s didn't have flying bridges but they did in the 60s. Consumers approved and they are still with us.
Engineers decide other things like the location of equipment in a boat, what kind of glass to use, fuel tanks and many other things. So the purchasing agents and engineers may sort of overlap at times but PAs don't design hulls. That's for naval architects as is weight and balance ect. But the consumer even has a say in that too. There is the deadrise V/S performance, seaworthyness and a smooth ride in a chop or even the nasty. Women largely dictate the freeboard of pleasure boats ... don't want to get too close to the water. A low freeboard makes much more sense but you rarely see it .... except on a troller, gillnetter or lobsterboat.

But most of the designing of a pleasure boat is done by the boat buyers dollar.

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Regarding consumers designing things, I have the opposite view, but I'm extremely biased....

Occasionally focus groups or design teams come up with something that works, but most of the time the results are un-focused, muddy messes. The problem is that group design will fail unless bound by a really strong lead vision. There are always conflicts, and one mind seems to be able (sufficiently skilled) to order the conflicts into (occasionally) great art. That 48 Cadillac was not designed by any group, it was one guy, Franklin Q. Hershey, (inspired by the Lockheed P-38) who designed it.

I've been part of group design efforts Truebuild Yachts In the end no one is happy because there are too many conflicts and nobody gets what he or she wants.

IMO the very best design comes out of strong single-minded vision. Example; Krogan 42, 1976, Art Kady (an experienced sailor) came to James Krogan (a very experienced designer) for a long distance coastwise cruiser. James sat down in front of a piece of paper and drew the boat, it's still popular.
Hinckley Picnic boat, 1995, three guys owned a sailboat company and wanted a dayboat for themselves. They had no idea anyone else wanted such a thing. They came to us, I drew a boat, they built it and spawned an entire industry segment.
Chris-Craft, 1998 (?), was failing, trying to build running shoe boats to compete with SeaRay. Someone said let's try something classic, the contract went to Mike Peters, he drew 3 launches, the entire line is now based on that single vision.
Passagemaker, Bob Beebe's original, not the result of any group, just one guy. Arguably the beginning of the entire "trawler" market and lifestyle.

I have lot's more examples....

If you want to make money you design what your customers want using their input, however you choose to get it. If you want to be creative and do what YOU think something should be, you do your own thing. Unless you really screw up, the first method almost always works. Unless you get very, very lucky, the second method, while maybe satisfying the creator, rarely becomes very profitable or successful.

Customer input only becomes a muddy mess if you let it. This is a lesson I've learned both in commercial television and at my current employer, where we've done it right and we've done it wrong. Gathering, organizing, and incorporating customer input effectively is as critical a part of the product creation process as the nuts and bolts design and manufacturing.

Done correctly, one invariably ends up with a better and more successful product, be it jetliners, movies, dishwashers or boats.

Back in the late 50's or early 60's, Chrysler Corporation commissioned a market research team to find out what consumers wanted in an automobile. The resounding answer was no frills basic transportation. You know stick shift, nothing power, small engines, good gas mileage, bland styling, no chrome, etc. So they commenced manufacturing cars as a result of this marketing intelligence. Well, the cars did not sell.

So, Chrysler sent out their marketing research people to do a followup. Again, the results were the same except for the last question. That was what features are they going to demand when they make their next auto purchase. The answer was they were going to buy a car with the same features as their neighbors new car. And when the MR types walked out the door to see what the neighbor bought, it was a flashy V8 with auto trans and power this and power that and got poor gas mileage.

Consumers DO DESIGN products but they do so with their pocket book and not their specifications and drawings. That is why there are so many me too boats.

It's actually an integrated process. Builder or designer uses their knowledge and bases the product on what they believe the consumer wants. Sometimes they even go out on a limb with what they think the consumer needs whether they want it or not.

Then the consumer responds and either confirms the beliefs or the product changes.

Those designers who have started products have had tremendous knowledge of users and needs. They've designed to that need.

Sometimes the consumer does not speak beyond saying "we don't like that".

Sometimes the consumer ends up accepting different than what they really want because they take the closest they find.

Regardless it's an ongoing process of creativity and reading signs of demand.

TAD
I was wondering what you'd think of my post as I was writing it.

Your post is very correct IMO. However nothing is better than the sum of it's parts and the committee designed thing will appeal to many perhaps even most but still is a "mess" as you say. But the "mess" will have fewer faults that will turn off buyers. No William Gardner boat could have been designed by a committee and other great things usually don't come from the committee either. Bayliner would never have built my Willard. Right off the bat ....... too slow. Wouldn't appeal to enough buyers. Mass produced things need to appeal to most people. Mass produced things (like a Bayliner) will rarely excell in any one way. Haha .... except in sales.

If people want a high freeboard boat they will buy high freeboard boats and shun low freeboard boats and the design (high FB boats) will come about as dictated by the consumer. Wide boats? What does the consumer buy? Narrow boats? No they don't. Too little room and they are tippy. Nobody (almost) builds narrow boats and the consumer decides that. You once told me when I asked if lengthening a boat was a good idea and you said that most boats can benefit from being longer. That means most boats are too wide ... and I agree.

In your example Kady dictated the elements of the design to Krogen and Kady's boat was drawn up and built. Kady being a smart man probably allowed Krogen to sway his wants to a more usable final design. But it wasn't Krogen's boat in more ways than one.

My mother was an artist and hired a Norwegin brick layer to build a fireplace in our new house. She had it all designed and she went all around the boxing ring w him several times as he continued to tell her that wasn't the proper way to build fireplaces. I think she won most of the time. But she was smart and listened too.

Look around you and consider all you see. Most all the time it's the marketplace that does the designing.

You want something beautiful? More artists-less accountants!
This thread made me reminisce about the many car, RV, and yacht dealers I've known and worked with over the years and listening to their philosophy of what sells to what market and why. Basically it boiled down to what market was offered a particular product. If there was a Winnebago(or Gulfstar, Carver, or Bayliner) dealership in an area naturally there would be more product loyalty for those products in those areas. In other words people will buy what's offered them and they retain higher resale values there. Ford Torinos were popular in Tennessee but you rarely saw them in Georgia where the Mopars ruled. ETC.
They didn't factor in anything else in their equations and all their inventory sold. Even with yachts, its rare the buyer who will travel far to buy a new yacht. When a dealer no longer carries a particular line, the dropped products reputation declines rather rapidly. Navigator on the east coast comes to mind. All of a sudden it was "what are they, they any good, must not be since they don't sell them anymore?". Not true-but perception. It's why strong dealer networks are so important for the success of a product.

What rather irks me is how current manufacturers will just stop making great products or even colors. I've been a Benz guy for a longtime, and when one gets close to 50k miles, I go buy another. Remember the beautiful colors they used to come in? Greens, blues, reds, champagne, even an occasional yellow! So I traded in a gorgeous blue over blue-but wanted the same color-"sorry we don't have that anymore" instead bought a white, which at least had a blue top. Couple of years pass, go get another one-now the tops are all black. So I ended up with a triple black car. Didn't want black! I walked into the sales managers office (did I mention I drink a collada of Cuban coffee a day?) And asked rather loudly "why don't you people make colored (actually used the n word)cars anymore?!!! His answer was :"people only want black, white, or silver". I asked "did all your colored cars sell? YES, SO OBVIOUSLY COLORED CARS DO SELL! But if we're only offered black, white, or silver then that's what we had to buy, doesn't mean that's what we wanted and of course you will think that's was what we wanted.. If you haven't noticed Audi offers cars in colors and their showrooms are packed, and yours are empty, give us what we want, or we'll vote with our feet, and you will become Home Depot as Lowes across the street cleans your clock". Since then, I've purchased 4 cars, none Benz (still in the garage) none silver or black! Even bought a yellow Crossfire convertible for the girl at a Lexus dealership that also had no cars of color in the showrooms save the Chrysler. I mention this solely to prove my feet were indeed voting.
Will I go buy another Benz Cabrio when this one gets close to 50k miles? NO. I'm more likely to just go buy a classic car of color instead. They gave me no more choices.
WHY did VW quit making the Beetle, Why did Brunswick quit building a pilothouse? And for gods sake, back in the 80s WHY didn't GM just start building '57 Chevies' again? We would had bought them.
That's it. Rants over. Ron Paul good-Federal reserve bad!

I believe that even Feadship had a program which allowed a choice of several interior variations on their small 39 meter series.

bayliner

Very interesting discussion,thank you all !

Haha I was just thinking of trading a car last week and was looking on Craig's list. Preferred red w tan interior. Nada. Like you say black (ugh) silver and white. White is the most popular now. But there again it's the market designing the product. PH we are odd guys. Most want B, S pe W. So that's what is available. You gotta be like a chameleon and be and like vogue. Same thing though. The bulk of consumers determine the product. The last person (since Henry Ford) to decide the car color is the manufacturer.

We live in a manufactured house. Never done that before. Looks almost plastic from the outside. Don't like it. But inside I liked it right away. No ceiling is flat. I like the angles. I'll bet a lot of thought went into the floor plan and I wonder where the manufacturer got the input to generate the floor plan? Could the manufacturer know more than the buyer in this case? I doubt it. They just offered plans that sold well before. There's only one glaring fault that I've noticed.

Yes it's amazing how people will buy stuff close and not go to the trouble of shopping more. I'm the opposite. I'm waiting for a call right now about a $30 gas can (old Merc) that's almost 100 miles away. I need it for my kerosene fuel supply for my boats Wabasto.

Hey Russell, I'm the guy with the big cocktail party. It was a yacht club function at a private moorage and we didn't bother a soul. Just wanted to put your mind at ease. My wife and I usually enjoy spending quiet times on the boat, but I was trying to point out how nice it is to have the flexibility to entertain a crowd on the 4788.

You might recall this Photoshopped Bayliner 4788 LRC I imagined last year. Truth is, I was thinking that Bayliner, seeing the number of Boomers retiring, would have eventually hopped on the band-wagon with their own affordable trawer-style offering, using a tried and true hull with some minor styling, interior and tankage mods. .I doubt it was ever on anyones sketch board and even if it was, it would have been in the trash can by the end of 2007. I hate it that the big Bayliners are history, but I would have loved to see such a boat from Bay.

Larry--- That's very good looking boat. I mean, very good looking. Were we in the market for a new cruising boat and one that looked like that was available, assuming all the other important aspects were up to snuff--- two engines of a good make, construction quality, interior configuration, etc.--- we'd buy it.

You should patten that exterior design and then sell it to somebody.

I'm impressed.

Marin said:

Larry--- That's very good looking boat. I mean, very good looking. --- we'd buy it.

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When my Admiral and I left Key Biscayne in 2007 for a three-year posting in Berlin, I gave my 2452 to the local Bayliner guy in Ft. Lauderdale, and told him when we got back, we'd be buying the Bayliner of our dreams. I thought it would be something like this, but.....well, you know what happened in 2007. I know it's not as practical as a 4788, but it's close, and it has class.

Larry

Some covered side decks would be nice too. And a bigger aft sliding door so it parties as well as a Navigator.

healhustler said:

You might recall this Photoshopped Bayliner 4788 LRC I imagined last year. ...

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Love it ... ... where can I get it?

Heel hustler: back in 09 I sold a 4788 to a fellow from the Ukraine who was planning to take it back there and use it as a pattern to build them in Aluminum at a old Russian Military boatyard that had a huge supply of Aluminum in stock with pod drives yet, which we figured we could sell landed here in Florida for $350k. He even brought a beautiful finished 65'er here to show off their skills. . I did a survey on the Bayliner Owners Club website for feedback and suggestions of which we were going to apply. The master was going to be full width like Navigators, and since the engines would be under the cockpit, we had all that space under the salon to use as additional cabin space and storage. We had a winner!!
One flaw...he had a short fuse and chain smoked. His face would turn red at restaurants if the waiter was too slow. I kept telling him " take it easy man, your going to have a heart attack". Well, as Paul Harvey would say "now you know the rest of the story".

If I was going into the boat building business, which I'm definitely not.

First, I don't believe the consumer has deserted the 40-60' range to the degree it appears. I think the economic crisis certainly hit this range hard. But before Brunswick pulled the plug, Bayliner was still selling well. The problem was it wasn't selling for as much as they wanted. A Brunswick operation couldn't make a profit at the sales prices that Bayliner was able to. Very different organization.

The other builders have largely dressed boats in that range up so they've priced them out of the market. Plus they then have decided to turn the production over to larger boats. A prime example is Grand Banks. Another example of deserting a very well selling boat for larger is Westport dropping the 65' Pacific Mariner which had sold over 200 units.

Sea Ray had horrible years with the Sundancer's but they've recovered. A lot of purchasers of them would rather have a bridge and more utilitarian boat but it's not available in the size and price range they want.

So here is my line. An updated but similarly constructed and equipped version of Bayliner with a Pacific Mariner type thrown in at the top. So a 65', a 58, 53, 48 a 43 and a 36. No teak or other aesthetic only amenities to price it out of the range of it's customer. All with twin engines and a cruising speed of 20 knots. Then at least the 48, 43 and 36 also with single engines, low horsepower, designed with top speed of 12 knots, cruise of 8-9. Now, not beefed up or made more trawler like. Same weight and construction characteristics. Just lower price, less speed, more economical. For those who feel strongly in favor of single engines. If I could maintain cost and price, I might go with pods for the twins. Even more economical.

Each boat would have a standard set of engines or engine, no options. They would have a standard set of equipment, but would be well equipped. And if you wanted a chance you would have to start some builds to spec and have them sitting on dealer's lots ready to go.

I believe the concepts that worked before would still work. One just can't compromise them. I think there is a huge void in the market place in that size range. Grand Banks is way overbuilt for that customer. Meridian is overpriced for what it is and continues shrinking. The various tugs are great boats but for a different customer. The style and size of the old Bayliners sure still attracts used buyers.

So, that's my little dream. Oh and it has to be done with money, real money. Not borrowed money and not on a shoestring.

I just noticed (because its the first time I've looked since 09) that the website for the Ukrainian company who was going to build these in aluminum is still active although obviously dated.. . They had the right idea, and the right credentials, and they had that scary (I met the money man one time) Russian money that was flowing through south Florida not long ago. http://conquestyachts.com
I guess they don't have the same warnings on the packs of Russian cigarettes.

BandB said:

First, I don't believe the consumer has deserted the 40-60' range to the degree it appears. .

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The market is currently saturated with quality builders in this size range. Let me list a few slowpokes:

• Nordhavn
• Selene
• Nordic Tug
• American Tug
• DeFever
• Cutwater is moving in
• Fathom
• Outer Reef
• Garcia

And a few fast pokes:

• Devlin
• Cruisers
• Searay
• Beneteau
• Horizon
• Coastal Craft
• Carver
• All the downeast designs
• GB
• Mainship/Marlow

I have left out dozens more. For a new builder to enter the already crowded 50 foot range seems fraught with grief. Especially a US builder with the dollar climbing.

sunchaser said:

The market is currently saturated with quality builders in this size range. Let me list a few slowpokes:

• Nordhavn
• Selene
• Nordic Tug
• American Tug
• DeFever
• Cutwater is moving in
• Fathom
• Outer Reef
• Garcia

And a few fast pokes:

• Devlin
• Cruisers
• Searay
• Beneteau
• Horizon
• Coastal Craft
• Carver
• All the downeast designs
• GB
• Mainship/Marlow

I have left out dozens more. For a new builder to enter the already crowded 50 foot range seems fraught with grief. Especially a US builder with the dollar climbing.

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Interesting...

Now apply a price cap for a well equipped 48' boat at say $500,000 in today's dollars for a new boat.

Now who is still in the market?

Thats the market that Bayliner operated in.

Thats the market that a "typical" professional could afford to take part in.

In my opinion there are allot more people that can and would pay a half million for a new boat than say a million.

Before anybody says "a half million isn't a lot for a boat" consider that a half million represents the outer edge of affordability for almost all hard working professionals earning a salary. Go up in price and you pretty much limit sales to entrepreneurs. For every successful entrepreneur there are hundreds or thousands of very successful salaried professionals out there.

In my opinion thats what is lacking from the marketplace...

A 40-50' boat that a successful salaried professional can afford. People with a household income of $2-300,000 a year.

sunchaser said:

The market is currently saturated with quality builders in this size range. Let me list a few slowpokes:

• Nordhavn
• Selene
• Nordic Tug
• American Tug
• DeFever
• Cutwater is moving in
• Fathom
• Outer Reef
• Garcia

And a few fast pokes:

• Devlin
• Cruisers
• Searay
• Beneteau
• Horizon
• Coastal Craft
• Carver
• All the downeast designs
• GB
• Mainship/Marlow

I have left out dozens more. For a new builder to enter the already crowded 50 foot range seems fraught with grief. Especially a US builder with the dollar climbing.

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Ok, first let's eliminate the slowpokes and just focus on faster. Carver no longer has boats in this range due to considerable reduction of the line. Searay doesn't have this style, leaving the sedans to the failed Meridian. Cruisers has no flybridges. Horizon is larger yachts. Downeast isn't the type design we're talking about. Coastal Craft is a boat I absolutely love, but aluminum. Grand Banks is overbuilt for this market, again a very nice boat, but priced considerably out of the range I'm speaking. Marlow attempts to be a Grand Banks, but is primarily larger as well. The one 49 I saw introduced but am not aware of any builds. Frankly aware of very few Marlow builds the last couple of years. Mainship has only two boats, both trawlers smaller than I'm discussing.

As to the dollar climbing, the boat can be built and delivered in the US at a cost less than say Grand Banks Malaysian costs.