Charts and Canadian Waters

So I am preparing for the first big cruise up north in the summer 2016. I was reading the Waggoner Cruise Guide and they recommended the below. I already have a Ray Marine and Lowrance GPS/Chart Plotter which will have updated Navionics Charts.

Any comments/input?

https://www.coastalexplorer.net/

The Waggoner is good, but it is a commercial enterprise. I'm pretty sure they get compensated for endorsing that product.

Navionics is good, I use that as a backup to my chart plotter. The Canadian rules for an under 66 foot non-commercial boat ( I am paraphrasing) is you are required to have "knowledge" and my non-legal understanding of that is a chart plotter and an independent backup. If your boat is commercial or bigger you need to carry paper charts, which is specifically spelled out.

I have a stack of paper too, but only my wife likes to use them.

You hardly need to be on the payroll to endorse Coastal Explorer. It is well liked by all of the boating press and everyone I have ever talked to. I have been using it since before version 1.0 and it is solid, well designed and more than reasonably priced. The people that develop it are responsive to their users and ship a remarkably bug-free product. The most amazing thing is that it is updated continuously and essentially for free. I cannot recommend it highly enough.

Steve

SteveD said:

You hardly need to be on the payroll to endorse Coastal Explorer. It is well liked by all of the boating press and everyone I have ever talked to. I have been using it since before version 1.0 and it is solid, well designed and more than reasonably priced. The people that develop it are responsive to their users and ship a remarkably bug-free product. The most amazing thing is that it is updated continuously and essentially for free. I cannot recommend it highly enough.

Steve

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So now I am looking at a stand-a-lone PC and adding this to my electronic package. I take it, I can plan a trip, then download it to my chart plotters too? To update do you need an internet connection? Concerns with bugs if hooked to the internet?

Xsbank said:

The Waggoner is good, but it is a commercial enterprise. I'm pretty sure they get compensated for endorsing that product.

Navionics is good, I use that as a backup to my chart plotter. The Canadian rules for an under 66 foot non-commercial boat ( I am paraphrasing) is you are required to have "knowledge" and my non-legal understanding of that is a chart plotter and an independent backup. If your boat is commercial or bigger you need to carry paper charts, which is specifically spelled out.

I have a stack of paper too, but only my wife likes to use them.

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So my boat is 48ft. No requirement to carry paper charts?

We bought Coastal Explorer when we started predicted log racing. It's very easy to lay out a course and it calculates your leg times for you. With a GPS antenna plugged into your laptop it is just like your chartplotter. We sometimes use it for a backup. It does need to be connected to the internet to update. When working at home it automatically updates when you start the program. They just came out with charts for Canada, however they won't have automatic updates for them. It's also nice that you can choose raster or vector charts and click back and forth between them. See if they still have a free trial program available.

You need paper charts in Cdn waters. The requirements for local knowledge are pretty stiff. I have coastal explorer with the CHS charts. It's an expensive option at $600. Or...you could go with something else.


Jim
Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum

I don't believe you have to have paper or any charts in Canada on a vessel less than 100 tons. You have to have "means and knowledge" to navigate safely and efficiently but not any particular charts.

Here is a link to a document which is a part of Canada Shipping Act, see section 4. (2) ... http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-95-149/page-2.html#h-6

I have not come upon such a requirement, nor was I asked to produce CHS or any charts during CCG inspection ... YMMV.

Besides the Waggoner Guide, you will want to have the cruising guides by Don Douglass & Reanne Hemingway Douglass. There are three guides for going north: South Coast of BC, North Coast of BC, and Southeast Alaska. These guide books wont spend alot of time talking about the marinas and resorts, but instead focus on small bays and inlets, how to safely get into them, where to anchor, and how safe they will be in high winds. Between the Waggoner and the Douglass guides, you'll be set. If your going to the Seattle boat show in January, check them out.
I made two trips to Alaska, one lasting 5 months and one lasting 4 months. Used Nobeltec. Never looked at a paper chart either time. Had some on board, just never needed them. I understand there is a chart store in Nanaimo that has every chart there is for BC. Take lots of money.

Alaskan Sea-Duction said:

So I am preparing for the first big cruise up north in the summer 2016. I was reading the Waggoner Cruise Guide and they recommended the below. I already have a Ray Marine and Lowrance GPS/Chart Plotter which will have updated Navionics Charts.

Any comments/input?

https://www.coastalexplorer.net/

Click to expand...

While I now have Coastal Explorer on dedicated boat computer, BUT I still find myself using polar view on my lap top for general planning, even here in Europe with no Euro charts for PV.

In hindsight, I should have continued 35th laptop as #2 and replaced hard drive with SSC hard drive. Which I will do anyway.

As my backup more in Canada, I used Navionics on my smart phone and it's now also on my tablet.

Alaskan Sea-Duction, when we started cruising the Inside Passage I was armed with only a Raymarine E120. I quickly found this to less than desirable and needed more information.

I quickly purchase Coastal Explorer, suggest from a dock mate, for my laptop, Waggoner, Best Anchorage of the Inside Passage, Ports and Passage tide book and South Coast of BC, North Coast of BC, and Southeast Alaska. I have spent many hour read/purchasing cruising materials. Here is a great article to read. cruisingnw.com/tides-currents-and-rapids-in-the-inside-passage/.

Oh yeah, I bought paper charts that can take me past Cape Caution from the Second Wave. Unfortunately Second Wave close their doors this year.

After my first trip in 2010 I bought from the Canadian Fisheries and Oceans some digital charts to download to my laptop. Canadian Hydrographic Service.

With CE I can spend my time in the comfort of my home/boat charting/planning our route, determine departure time to make passage crossing at slack, mileage to waypoint and much more.

An Internet connection is not need for planning. As stated, when you have an internet connection and start up CE, the program will auto update. Also with the internet you can view photos of most anchorages. Below is an example.



Good luck in your quest and have a safe New Year.

What kind of trip?

You won't expect to find much difference in the Canadian charts themselves no matter who you buy them from as they all sourced from the same place. My last trip up North in September I was still using Nobeltec on my boat computer, but found I used Navionics on an iPad more often than not. It's quick and effective.

The thing I find most people skimping or wishing they had invested more time is having good tide AND current predictions. B.C. Is the land of passes, narrows and rapids. Having more than one source of current prediction has often proven useful and often of more benefit than the charts themselves.

Take something relatively simple like Malibu Rapids in Princess Louisa. Do you have a solution for knowing when to leave Pender or Egmont? I found Wagoner to be off significantly in some cases. Use this example, Dodd narrows and others to see if you can self serve in whatever packages you choose. I also once found a bad tide prediction in tides and currents in Nobeltec one night in Conover cove when it came within 8 inches of mattering. Ever since, I have used two independent sources of depth prediction whenever it could matter as bugs creep in in real life.

Richard W said:

I don't believe you have to have paper or any charts in Canada on a vessel less than 100 tons. You have to have "means and knowledge" to navigate safely and efficiently but not any particular charts.

Here is a link to a document which is a part of Canada Shipping Act, see section 4. (2) ... http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-95-149/page-2.html#h-6

I have not come upon such a requirement, nor was I asked to produce CHS or any charts during CCG inspection ... YMMV.

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And the relevant section of the CSA...

"(2) The master and owner of a ship of less than 100 tons are not required to have on board the charts, documents and publications referred to in subsection (1) if the person in charge of navigation has sufficient knowledge of the following information, such that safe and efficient navigation in the area where the ship is to be navigated is not compromised:
(a) the location and character of charted
(i) shipping routes,
(ii) lights, buoys and marks, and
(iii) navigational hazards; and
(b) the prevailing navigational conditions, taking into account such factors as tides, currents, ice and weather patterns."

That means local knowledge. This is discussed in Canadian Power Squadron classes. You are expected to have enough experience in the area that you can recall the locations of the Nav aids if your plotter fails. The test of local knowledge is quite stringent. Maybe the Coast Guard won't be concerned when they inspect your boat but I suspect you wouldn't have a leg to stand on in the courts against a well trained legal counsel with a background in maritime law if your tried to argue your local knowledge if you caused an event because your plotter failed.


Jim
Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum

Ghost wrote "Take something relatively simple like Malibu Rapids in Princess Louisa." I understand that some of the electronic tide tables are off considerable for Malibu Rapids. I haven't been there myself so cannot comment. We carry the 3 volumes of tide tables on PH.


Jim
Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum

JDCAVE said:

That means local knowledge. This is discussed in Canadian Power Squadron classes. You are expected to have enough experience in the area that you can recall the locations of the Nav aids if your plotter fails. The test of local knowledge is quite stringent. Maybe the Coast Guard won't be concerned when they inspect your boat but I suspect you wouldn't have a leg to stand on in the courts against a well trained legal counsel with a background in maritime law if your tried to argue your local knowledge if you caused an event because your plotter failed.

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Yeah ... I had already agreed with you on the knowledge part ...

Richard W said:

You have to have "means and knowledge" to navigate safely and efficiently but not any particular charts.

Click to expand...

Great info, thanks. So as discribed by Jim, where can I get the three volumes of tide/current tables for BC? Thanks Russel, I have put the guides in my shopping list.

I am told the tides isn't as important as current tables?

Alaskan Sea-Duction said:

Great info, thanks. So as discribed by Jim, where can I get the three volumes of tide/current tables for BC? Thanks Russel, I have put the guides in my shopping list.

I am told the tides isn't as important as current tables?

Click to expand...

Most marine stores in Canada will have them. They should be available in Prince Rupert, and you can pick them up when you clear customs. You can also look up some of the information here, but it doesn't have the tables for 2ndary ports.

2015 Tide Tables - Tides, Currents, and Water Levels

locations to buy...
Canadian Hydrographic Service

Jim

Just curious, why not get the proper Canada charts that correspond to Douglas, Waggoner etc? Ditto Alaska. Just seems like good sense to do it. Maybe even smarter than having the "right" anchor!

Also, for BC the Tides and Currents Book/ Murray tables Yearly #5, 6, and 7 are very handy and when used with charts permit one to be sensibly off the GPS grid. Our Nobeltec has all the tide and current info we need. Ditto Furuno and Navionics on the I Pad. We cross reference with the hard paper data in the BC passes - not always is there agreement.

Not anecdotal, I know of many vessels, large and small that have run aground or sunk in BC and Alaska due to being off course or relying upon AP in magnetic anomalous areas.

But, your call on how you want to be equipped and papered. BTW, best to ignore advice from those who do not routinely travel these waters.

ghost said:

The thing I find most people skimping or wishing they had invested more time is having good tide AND current predictions. B.C. Is the land of passes, narrows and rapids. Having more than one source of current prediction has often proven useful and often of more benefit than the charts themselves.

Click to expand...

In my experience, Ports and Passes is about as good as it gets for BC tides and currents. Way easier to understand and use than the official Canadian books.

Russell Clifton said:

Besides the Waggoner Guide, you will want to have the cruising guides by Don Douglass & Reanne Hemingway Douglass. There are three guides for going north: South Coast of BC, North Coast of BC, and Southeast Alaska. These guide books wont spend alot of time talking about the marinas and resorts, but instead focus on small bays and inlets, how to safely get into them, where to anchor, and how safe they will be in high winds. Between the Waggoner and the Douglass guides, you'll be set.

Click to expand...

Totally agree. The Douglass Exploring series guides are a great resource.

And if youre interested in anchorages, let me offer (at the risk of repeating myself to the TF) to email you our handy-dandy lists of (mostly) tried and true anchorages. Years ago we started planning for our first SE AK trip by staring at the huge collection of paper charts whilst reading earlier books and cruising guides. Made lists of anchorages that seemed good and relatively easy to use. Bought a copy of Douglass's first AK guide after we crossed the Dixon - a revelation.

Over many trips we've continued to refine and update our lists, add comments on some, and delete a few that we really don't like. There's a list for south BC, one for north BC, and one for SE AK. We haven't stayed in every anchorage listed as yet, but have in most, some many times.

They're organized roughly in the sequence you might encounter the anchorages as you travel. We look first at the list when planning the next day or next few days travel. We select the planned next anchorage, and already have right in front of us reasonable bailout anchorages along the way.

Send me your email if you'd like a copy.

Two other excellent guides are Cruising the Secret Coast by Jennifer and James Hamilton, and Best Anchorages of the Inside Passage by Anne Vipond and William Kelly.


Jim
Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum

You can use what you want for the tide and current tables BUT I strongly suggest getting the Cdn Gvt books, all three if needed for the area you are covering. They list all the reference ports and passes for tides and currents.

Yes, it may be a bit more work to work with them but they are the basis of the other books. The trouble is some of the other books skip some reference ports/passes which has caused trouble when we were travelling with other people. Those skipped references if, and I'll name one, Port and Passes , on a small tide change or current may not matter too much but on a big change could get you in trouble.

Yes, I'm cautious and the other books are easier but as we have found those skipped items caused too many [discussions].

Then use the other books for the nooks, cranniies, anchorages, etc. that the Gvt publications don't cover.

As a last note the plotter or chartware tables I find are too many times way off. I'm guessing they use a generic formula which may work OK where strong currents/big tides don't occur but that can be trouble.
JMO

Sailing Directions, Canadian Gov't, is very good in addition to the others, also Walbran for place names.

I'm going to add one more bug I have.

Total dependence on plotters and electronic charts.

I learned to use charts and still do. I'm no expert and would fail miserably now on actual plotting but I can still read them and learned to estimate distance and where I am going from an overview by their continued use.

We do have a GPS tied to our dedicated computer for chartware along with my wifes Nexus 7 with full GPS and chartware. Also our new and 2nd VHF, a Std. Hor., has a built in GPS and the MMSI #. We did for many years and can still run without electronics so do not depend upon them but rather use them to help us.

Now and for several years we have travelled with other folks who do not use paper charts, who rely totally on their plotters and chartware.

I noticed that if we strayed outside of our planned route they took a lot longer to orient themselves than I or the others who used paper did.

There have been outright equipment failures.

One, last trip, only had a simple resetting problem on one plotter which was fixed because another member had exactly the same unit and had learned on another trip how to deal with the problem. It was not an equipment failure but rather a software failing. The timing was the pits because we were in an area that had a pile of rocks. They had to follow us closely out of the area untill the reset of the chart list could be done without running aground.

It would appear the splits in chart loadings and loading areas are determined by people who have no experience in the area and maybe no boating. Maybe smart programmers but not boat operators/navigators.

If you are going to depend upon electronic plotters completely, dedicated plotters or a GPS guided PC, I think you are asking for trouble if you depend only on one device. They should be powered separately, not from the same source, so if one circuit dies the backup or alternate doesn't.

Murphy came aboard...

...one dark but not stormy night. I was racing to Ensenada and my hand-held GPS went dead (I didn't have a built-in). No problem; I had spare batteries. I put them in the unit, turned it on and nothing happened. Argh; batts were backwards. I reversed the batts and turned the unit on. It came up just fine, but the battery blunder had erased all my courses and waypoints. I did have paper charts....

Have you ever had a visit from Captain Murphy?

Dick
Retired from racing
Shopping for a cruiser near
Oceanside

You can find most of these books at Fine Edge Publishing. If your going to the boat show you might find them there on sale. I have several of these books mentioned that have been autographed by the authors, which is kind of cool.

knuckelbuster said:

Alaskan Sea-Duction, when we started cruising the Inside Passage I was armed with only a Raymarine E120. I quickly found this to less than desirable and needed more information.

I quickly purchase Coastal Explorer, suggest from a dock mate, for my laptop, Waggoner, Best Anchorage of the Inside Passage, Ports and Passage tide book and South Coast of BC, North Coast of BC, and Southeast Alaska. I have spent many hour read/purchasing cruising materials. Here is a great article to read. cruisingnw.com/tides-currents-and-rapids-in-the-inside-passage/.

Oh yeah, I bought paper charts that can take me past Cape Caution from the Second Wave. Unfortunately Second Wave close their doors this year.

After my first trip in 2010 I bought from the Canadian Fisheries and Oceans some digital charts to download to my laptop. Canadian Hydrographic Service.

With CE I can spend my time in the comfort of my home/boat charting/planning our route, determine departure time to make passage crossing at slack, mileage to waypoint and much more.

An Internet connection is not need for planning. As stated, when you have an internet connection and start up CE, the program will auto update. Also with the internet you can view photos of most anchorages. Below is an example.

Good luck in your quest and have a safe New Year.

Click to expand...

Well that is very interesting. I notice that some of the photos featured in your screen capture are mine. I'm not concerned about copyright particularly, but am a bit surprised.

From the CE website:
"Coastal Explorer's Guide Book also includes photos from all over the world via Panoramio."

rochepoint said:

From the CE website:
"Coastal Explorer's Guide Book also includes photos from all over the world via Panoramio."

Click to expand...

Ah, that explains it. Thanks Mike!

Conrad said:

Ah, that explains it. Thanks Mike!

Click to expand...

By the way Conrad, nice photos of yours there!
Love the ones of the Enno's, I remember her........