Whats wrong with Bayliners?

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BandB said:
I wouldn't worry about the Chouest family as they are primarily suppliers of vessels for offshore supply but also their company doesn't have the kind of debt you're so use to seeing. Actually the last I knew they had more demand for boats than they could build in their facilities and had even farmed some builds out. Now that's not saying a downturn isn't possible.

The good part of them acquiring is that it's kept in the hands of boaters and not an investment firm. The Chouest family has always been actively involved, especially in fishing (They own ACY as well). Oh and Gary did already personally own a Westport.
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Chouest is a big supporter of Bobby Jindal and past part owner of the Hornets/Pelicans. The NBA team ran into financial problems and was sold to the NBA in 2010, later to be bought by Saints owner Tom Benson. Seems like a normal billionaire with interesting short term purchases, mostly off the radar as his family company is private and not publically traded.
 
sunchaser said:
Chouest is a big supporter of Bobby Jindal and past part owner of the Hornets/Pelicans. The NBA team ran into financial problems and was sold to the NBA in 2010, later to be bought by Saints owner Tom Benson. Seems like a normal billionaire with interesting short term purchases, mostly off the radar as his family company is private and not publically traded.
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Yes, he bought 25% of the Hornets and was going to buy the remainder but dealing with George Shinn is always problematic. Ultimately they couldn't agree on a total price or whether Shinn would still retain any share and then the gulf oil spill took Chouest's time and energy.

This was all an effort to keep the team in New Orleans as Shinn had already moved it once, was more than willing to sell it to someone who would relocate it and tried after Katrina to keep it in Oklahoma City where they played two years but the NBA would have none of that.

The NBA stepped in and bought the team when it was clear Shinn couldn't survive longer and he was going to sell it to be relocated. Tom Benson was and is the ideal buyer of the team and perhaps the only one in position to not lose money on it due to the synergy with the Saints. Ironic because after Katrina, Benson tried to relocate the Saints to San Antonio which is where he lived and built his auto empire.
 
sunchaser said:
But you own a Tollycraft :confused:
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I can't afford a Bayliner 38 Motoryacht. And I know how they are put together. I think Bayliners are very efficiently designed boats. There are just so many of them all over Puget Sound. My Tolly is not as well laid out interior wise, but it is a stronger built boat.
 
FlyWright said:
This is a legitimate question as I really don't have a clue of the answer...

Are any Bayliner hulls cored below the waterline? None? Does it vary with model? Year?
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On my website "baylinerpilothouse.com" in the page "history and updates" I have photos of the layups of these boats, along with photos of a wrecked one along with the cut outs for a bow thruster. I can factually tell you that the fiberglass layers before the coring is thicker by itself than the entire hull thickness of so called quality passagemaker yachts. I'm not going to open that thread up again, but I documented this fact with photos in a earlier thread.
YES, they are cored.
Coring is a good thing when done correctly.

and to the fellow that thankfully pointed out "so many of them all over Pudget Sound" (them being Bayliners), this is exactly why I questioned the person who started this thread by posting a false assumption as fact on a forum VERSUS just looking out his window in Friday Harbor, then go speak to the owners of the vessels. You can't get to Friday Harbor by car or Ferry without going through Anacortes, and that town is packed with the boats and businesses that service them.
 
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As to Bayliner skippers being clueless...

Yesterday near Little River, it wasn't a Bayliner that made the bad pass, nor the Sea Ray or the Sportfishemen....it was the sundeck Mainship.....

So........
 
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Well this is a good read and fun. The only folks that bash BL are the snobby Sea Ray crowd (except for GFC). The one thing I did notice in the older models was the cookie cutter type stuff. It didn't matter if you bought a big or small the floor plans looked all the same.

When I was looking at buying a bigger boat we looked at BL, SR and Meridians (Some will say still a BL). Funny thing the merdians had better floor plans and had all the same stuff a SR had at half the cost! Now their quality has also risen when Brunwick started manufacturing them in the same plant as SR and using some of the same material.

Kevin's trip to Alaska in his BL proved to me that they are good boats. But like anything else, if you take care of it, it will be a good boat regardless of brand.
 
Pierce said:
I can't afford a Bayliner 38 Motoryacht. And I know how they are put together. I think Bayliners are very efficiently designed boats. There are just so many of them all over Puget Sound. My Tolly is not as well laid out interior wise, but it is a stronger built boat.
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True on the "stronger built boat" mention. I've seen cores of Bayliner hulls and cores of Tolly hulls. Although I appreciate it and don't mind it a bit - Tolly hulls are a bit overbuilt, nearly 2X... IMHO. Our 77 34' tri cabin Tolly is laid out well. Not as glitzy as BL, but darn comfortable and easy to deal with! Luv the roomie engine compartment's wide open inside salon access... when desired.
 
Art said:
True on the "stronger built boat" mention. I've seen cores of Bayliner hulls and cores of Tolly hulls. Although I appreciate it and don't mind it a bit - Tolly hulls are a bit overbuilt, nearly 2X... IMHO. Our 77 34' tri cabin Tolly is laid out well. Not as glitzy as BL, but darn comfortable and easy to deal with! Luv the roomie engine compartment's wide open inside salon access... when desired.
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I think Tollycraft was an excellent boat. Another I hate is dead. Your comment about overbuilt is interesting. Built to purpose is always something I think of. Some boats have hulls built to cross oceans on boats that never will. I've also seen boats that just were trying to protect themselves by adding more and more glass rather than updating their methodology.
 
As has been noted, an awful lot of Bayliners up here in the PNW. If you want see virtually every model ever made, just go spend the weekend at the Locks in Seattle on a nice summer weekend. There must be 500 Bayliners docked in Lake Union/Lake Washington. And everyone one of them heads through the locks to the Sound. There have been days going through when I thought I had stumbled upon a Bayliner Rendezvous. All those owners must like something about them!
 
BandB said:
I think Tollycraft was an excellent boat. Another I hate is dead. Your comment about overbuilt is interesting. Built to purpose is always something I think of. Some boats have hulls built to cross oceans on boats that never will. I've also seen boats that just were trying to protect themselves by adding more and more glass rather than updating their methodology.
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Mr.Tolly was stickler for correct build-out and long term durability. So much so that I believe many of his boat "creations" (if they are properly cared for) will last longer than most of us currently participating on TF.
 
Alaskan Sea-Duction said:
Cool thing was taht Tollys were built in Kelso WA!
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There's been so much great building in Washington. I don't even know all the small builders that were there. Unfortunately, most of the larger builders are either gone or in serious trouble today. Westport is the one that has remained successful. Northern may have another reincarnation under another owner but weren't much of a factor before. Christensen is closed for reorganization, suppose to be announced nearly three weeks ago, but not a sound since then. I have no knowledge of activity at Delta. American Tugs is still there I think but very little activity. Nordic Tugs is still there. I hope Christensen gets sorted out and returns to business. I think it will. Still a tremendous amount of boat building activity in the area not being utilized. There are also great naval architects in the area. Oh and Coastal Craft, across the border is a small builder that I find interesting too.

There was an small effort earlier in the year to pull a manufacturer to the US and to that area. If I was looking to put a boat manufacturing operation anywhere in the world, it would be in Washington.
 
i drive by the Delta plant periodically in the course of my work. From a distance they seem to be turning out new boats and working on older ones.
 
Marin said:
i drive by the Delta plant periodically in the course of my work. From a distance they seem to be turning out new boats and working on older ones.
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I hope so. They were showing the same boats in construction for ages on their website but now they've taken that site down and working on a new one. I don't know how much refit vs. new business they have.
 
It's nice having a unique boat (not a Bayliner) although the compliments do get repetitive.
 
B-Delta is doing quite well and weathered the downturn in fine fashion. Over the past few years they have expanded their capacity and expanded the build size to 100meters. Last time I talked to the folks down there, about 6 months ago, they were working off a 2 year backlog.
 
>It's nice having a unique boat (not a Bayliner) although the compliments do get repetitive<

Unique is fun but suffer from the lack of improvements that hundreds of owners will suggest to a factory over decades of actual use.

One stock build might be fine for some operations , but multiple improvements from different sources can improve the breed .

10,000 minds working instead of just 1 or 2.

The Cookie advantage.
 
FF; You beat me to that response. When I look at the evolution over the production line of my own boat (1984-1991), they included very few improvements. I've gone to a great deal of trouble and cost to make some of the ones that "look" obvious to me. Even something like having the genset location under the galley looks so absolutely provocative to most of us, yet its relocation to a new hatch under the veranda was relatively unchallenging to the design and construction of the boat, unless one wants to argue the 5/8" squat it added to the stern. Sure, there is the cost to do it, but I can only imagine that the cost at the build site would have been much less than mine. Of course, I can't see the other factors that the builder or the Architect could have.

At Bayliner, for example, something like this could have probably been spotted and changed over a year or two. At the boat shows, I always went to Bayliner, Carver, Silverton and Sea Ray to find out what kind of new ideas they were committing to production. Sometimes I'd copy them.
 
For really reasonable "initial" cost...


Just go purchase a 1940's thru 60's, 45' to 65' Chris / Stephens / Matthews / Trumpy or other quality yester-year wood built craft. There are some nice ones still in relatively OK condition floating around or on the hard of those makes in that size range. Then you can customize to your hearts desire with a couple wood working tools, good lumber, strong fasteners, and high tech paint/coatings. Or... of course... you can simply pay "Scary" to do a great bang-up job for ya!


You'll have a real purdy classic that hundreds compliment you on and will probably out last all of us!


Or... purchase a really nice condition FRP Bayliner / Meridian / Tollycraft / Grand Banks / Manatee or other brand and simply kick your feet up while on the hook or rest back in the captain's chair while cruising to your hearts delight... and, of course, pocketbook's capabilities!

Happy & Fun Boating Daze! - Art :speed boat::speed boat:
 
You do the same thing over and over enough times and you have to either get very good at it or very bad at it. Bayliner got very good.

Now, as to having other less popular and more unique boats, there's certainly enjoyment to that. It's the reason some people buy cars you see few of as opposed to sticking with the main brands.

It's funny that we have more exotic cars as we drive them very little, but as to the boats we use very heavily, we have chosen production tried and true models. When we had cars we drove every day to and from work, we were much more mainstream.

Now the more unique boats can be great boats as well, depending on the builder and how well they've been maintained and stood the test of time. As far as a new boat, we don't have the patience nor the risk tolerance to go with a custom boat or hull #1 or any boat although a low volume but long produced production boat we'd have no issue with. But we want to be able to ride in one just like what we're building.

Interesting too as most boats are well built, the majority somewhere between 6 and 10 on a scale of 1 to 10. But then there are a couple of brands that would honestly be well designed but have a history of problems and require major refits but have gained almost a cult following. In many cases it's not about boating for the buyers but the "pleasure" of rebuilding. It's like buying a rusted out vintage car and starting a renovation. Why those specific boats have such an allure is hard for me to appreciate as I wasn't alive in their heyday. And while they're obviously quite old, still they haven't held up comparably at all to a Bayliner, Sea Ray, or Hatteras.

As my wife would say, I think Mark's Coot is a really "cool" boat. It falls in a nice spot between some of the extremes. It's a very unique and relatively low volume boat, but it's also a production boat by a company that's been doing it now over 30 years.
 
So someone interested in a Bayliner should be considering vintage wooden boats too?


Seems like a guy wanting a brand new Mazda Miata with a factory warranty is not going to consider purchasing an MG. The quest to convince a production boat buyer into something grander continues ;)


To the OP, have you looked at any Bayliners yet? Don't tease...boat shopping is twice as fun as owning it!!!
 
Our DeFever is hull number 168 of that series. Yes practice can make perfect but customization can make perfect better. The considerable custom work requested on our vessel of the builder, Pocta, makes the vessel less a production vessel than a custom build once beyond the hull and cabin layups. Few DeFevers during the past few decades have been spec boats which is why the builder has stayed in business as long as they have.

Art DeFever intended it that way as he negotiated with Pocta to be the builder of choice as they moved from Taiwan to mainland China in the late 90s. The heavy duty running gear, best FRP materials available, seamless cabin to hull connections, solid glass hulls and tank layouts would remain fixed as each DeFever was laid up. But engines, HVAC, stabilizer choices, furniture and bedding, instruments, counter tops, thrusters, and plumbing can be modified by a new owner.

So IMHO the notion that a production vessel is some sort of lab tested work of art is only valid in the eyes of those who own and attempt to justify them and so - yesterday. CAD, SCRIMP, vacuum infusion, and other computer programs have so changed the build game that sensible customization is pretty simple.

If one goes to Nordhavn or Krogen today and asks for extensive custom details on a new build, you will get them. Engines, twins, singles, stabilizers, hydraulic vs electric, fly bridge etc. A model of Nordhavn I am familiar with, the 55, can be ordered with singles or twin power, stateroom layout, dry stack or wet exhaust and stretched to 60 feet as is now common with that model. The 55 is now gone through new owner demands ie customization. Similarly customized is the 52 , a stretched 47, for which I have 4 different interior layouts. And there is even an aft stateroom layout for the 52!

Today, all manners of customization are possible from most reputable trawler builders, provided of course that they are not compromising the vessel's basic safety/hull/stability specs and intended purpose as a safe passage maker.
 
sunchaser said:
Our DeFever is hull number 168 of that series. Yes practice can make perfect but customization can make perfect better. The considerable custom work requested on our vessel of the builder, Pocta, makes the vessel less a production vessel than a custom build once beyond the hull and cabin layups. Few DeFevers during the past few decades have been spec boats which is why the builder has stayed in business as long as they have.

Art DeFever intended it that way as he negotiated with Pocta to be the builder of choice as they moved from Taiwan to mainland China in the late 90s. The heavy duty running gear, best FRP materials available, seamless cabin to hull connections, solid glass hulls and tank layouts would remain fixed as each DeFever was laid up. But engines, HVAC, stabilizer choices, furniture and bedding, instruments, counter tops, thrusters, and plumbing can be modified by a new owner.

So IMHO the notion that a production vessel is some sort of lab tested work of art is only valid in the eyes of those who own and attempt to justify them and so - yesterday. CAD,



SCRIMP, vacuum infusion, and other computer programs have so changed the build game that sensible customization is pretty simple.

If one goes to Nordhavn or Krogen today and asks for extensive custom details on a new build, you will get them. Engines, twins, singles, stabilizers, hydraulic vs electric, fly bridge etc. A model of Nordhavn I am familiar with, the 55, can be ordered with singles or twin power, stateroom layout, dry stack or wet exhaust and stretched to 60 feet as is now common with that model. The 55 is now gone through new owner demands ie customization. Similarly customized is the 52 , a stretched 47, for which I have 4 different interior layouts. And there is even an aft stateroom layout for the 52!

Today, all manners of customization are possible from most reputable trawler builders, provided of course that they are not compromising the vessel's basic safety/hull/stability specs and intended purpose as a safe passage maker.
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At what cost $$$ wise? Now this is thread drift from the question of Bayliners, the most prolific builder of production yachts.
 
Exactly!


So is bcarli (the OP) going to look at a used Bayliner, say a 40 or 50 series, and during the inspection request all these modifications be done? Purchase it and then lay it up for some serious refit? Take a middle of the pack boat and outfit it with top of the line everything?


Guy wanted to make sure the hull wasn't going to split in two on a cruise, not if they compare to a spec built boat.


Not to sound rude but when I wheeled with Range Rover and Land Rover clubs these guys would always want to talk about how their rig is best, proper winch technique, and having tech days which are gathering around the bonnet and critique engineering. This conversation reminds me of that. Nothing to do with if another vehicle will simply get the job done. Used the term "Elitist" to describe the situation...


Cheers Mates :)
 
BandB said:
You do the same thing over and over enough times and you have to either get very good at it or very bad at it. Bayliner got very good.

Now, as to having other less popular and more unique boats, there's certainly enjoyment to that. It's the reason some people buy cars you see few of as opposed to sticking with the main brands.

It's funny that we have more exotic cars as we drive them very little, but as to the boats we use very heavily, we have chosen production tried and true models. When we had cars we drove every day to and from work, we were much more mainstream.

Now the more unique boats can be great boats as well, depending on the builder and how well they've been maintained and stood the test of time. As far as a new boat, we don't have the patience nor the risk tolerance to go with a custom boat or hull #1 or any boat although a low volume but long produced production boat we'd have no issue with. But we want to be able to ride in one just like what we're building.

Interesting too as most boats are well built, the majority somewhere between 6 and 10 on a scale of 1 to 10. But then there are a couple of brands that would honestly be well designed but have a history of problems and require major refits but have gained almost a cult following. In many cases it's not about boating for the buyers but the "pleasure" of rebuilding. It's like buying a rusted out vintage car and starting a renovation. Why those specific boats have such an allure is hard for me to appreciate as I wasn't alive in their heyday. And while they're obviously quite old, still they haven't held up comparably at all to a Bayliner, Sea Ray, or Hatteras.

As my wife would say, I think Mark's Coot is a really "cool" boat. It falls in a nice spot between some of the extremes. It's a very unique and relatively low volume boat, but it's also a production boat by a company that's been doing it now over 30 years.
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I too think Mark's Coot is a very nice boat - for him! Our boats are a really nice boats too - for us. Your boat(s) are really nice - for you. Al's boat(s) are nice - for him. So On and So Forth...!!!

In other words: We all seem to have boats that are very nice for each of us! Therefore... it stands to reason... boat luv is not only due to liking marine living/playing in general, but is also due to the soul of the boat-creature we have/own (or maybe she has/owns us - lol) IMHO that is why we male captains refer to our floating love affairs in the female gender such as she or her. We can get into her any time… and ride her out in many ways for many days. She won’t complain, too often or too much… so long as you keep her well maintained and looken pretty!

I wonder if female boat owners refer to their floating luv affair as he or him. They could ride him out on many occasions – Woopie!!!

Regarding transgender folks… would be interesting to learn what they call their boat??

Happy (very nearly) 2015 New Year’s Eve! :thumb:

Art :dance: :popcorn:
 
Boat love :)


For transgender boat owners...boat could be:
SNL_0710_05_Its_Pat.png
 
pilothouse king said:
At what cost $$$ wise? Now this is thread drift from the question of Bayliners, the most prolific builder of production yachts.
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Thread drift only if you have not read the tread.

But PK, except for your and other broker's commissions, nobody is making a dime on selling Bayliner Yachts today. Six years ago when at a Seattle Boat show the new boat price of a large Meridian was way too close to that of the GBs and OAs thus the Bayliner/Meridian business model of the past faded in the target audience's mind.

Sure a 4588 or 4788 is a vessel to consider when shopping used in that market niche.
 
Skinny said:
This conversation reminds me of that. Nothing to do with if another vehicle will simply get the job done. Used the term "Elitist" to describe the situation... Cheers Mates :)
Click to expand...

Interesting, now elitist Land Rover clubs have entered the tread. :lol:
 
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