Whats wrong with Bayliners?

Art said:

Pease read my post # 45 again. In second paragraph I mentioned custom build boats have great engineering. You are taking comparison between custom and production builds in the wrong light - IMHO. Read all the other posts too.

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Actually what you said was "Some custom boats experience great engineering." Bad to be misquoted. Worse to be misquoted by yourself.

That distinction is extremely important as they can have horrible engineering. See, "Northern Marine" and "Baden". That's a custom boat. See a new megayacht built by a large builder that then took two years at Rybovich being made acceptable after delivery.

The fact is that most of us don't require a custom boat as there is a production or semi-production/semi-custom that meets our needs.

We have built a semi-custom boat while others were pressuring us to go with a custom builder. But the benefit was we got a tried and true hull design and we got engines and equipment that had been used in identical boats many times. On the other hand we had a lot of flexibility above deck and some in the staterooms as well. Still, we made very few changes from their normal builds. Sometimes time and experience really lead to a good product. I've looked at the Bayliners and just wondered how else would I arrange the living areas, concluding I think they did a great job. Sometimes it just works.

CaptTom said:

Uh-oh. I may have started the thread drift by bringing my own love of well-crafted custom boats into to conversation, as a foil for the argument against production boats. And very few brands have more boats in production than Bayliner, so I think that's a fair use of the term.

If someone wants to take this off-line, I'd happily recite all the engineering details that led me to buy my Bayliner. Certainly it was more than cup holders and coolers. But I don't think we want to go there in this thread. Suffice it to say, I once held some disdain for mass-produced boats. Ten years of serious coastal cruising on a Bayliner cured me of that.

With that experience, I'd buy another Bayliner in a heartbeat. Which is what I think the OP wanted to know.

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Well put CaptTom.

This has been an inviting thread to glean inside thoughts off different types of boat owners regarding the two primary different types of build-out for pleasure boats. Seems end result shows both love and caution being held for production-line and/or custom-built water craft.

I, similar to CaptTom regarding Bayliner, know the many reason's I really like much of the finely honed decades of deeply reviewed engineering that was placed into my production-line Tollycraft. Having communicated with hundreds of Tollycraft owners (some being super-gurus who have or still do own several Tolly and for decades researched Tollycraft's design background) I see where engineering evolution(s) in Tolly models certainly provided many improved build-out developments.

In my younger days (1960's) I spent years aboard a custom designed, custom built woody; 37', raised deck, fly-bridge, sport-fisher that dad and I (while still using it for pleasure) spent a few years resuscitating and repowering with Perkins diesel. We made it into a beautifully enclosed sedan family boat. That was simply a fine, fine water craft!

Up-lift comments by Bayliner owners who have experienced plenty with their boats have given me a greater appreciation of the Bayliner brand.

Art -

Quote:
Originally Posted by Art
Pease read my post # 45 again. In second paragraph I mentioned custom build boats have great engineering. You are taking comparison between custom and production builds in the wrong light - IMHO. Read all the other posts too.

BandB said:

Actually what you said was "Some custom boats experience great engineering." Bad to be misquoted. Worse to be misquoted by yourself.

That distinction is extremely important as they can have horrible engineering. See, "Northern Marine" and "Baden". That's a custom boat. See a new megayacht built by a large builder that then took two years at Rybovich being made acceptable after delivery.

The fact is that most of us don't require a custom boat as there is a production or semi-production/semi-custom that meets our needs.

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B - Picky, picky! :lol:

And, you are correct... although via my shortened excerpt/quote I did not clearly fill in all the parameters to what I originally meant on post # 45, the words "I mentioned" should hold me harmless. I'm pleased to have more fully stated it correctly the first time!

Happy Boaten Daze! - Art

What I hear around this area is: Once you own a Bayliner, you will always own a Bayliner...
I am not sure how to interpret that statement? Help..

CaptTom said:

With that experience, I'd buy another Bayliner in a heartbeat. .

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So why the P 36 without cup holders?


On a more serious note, I have been onboard many larger Meridians, which is where my focus would be if I were buying a less than 5 year old vessel today. So, do the recent Meridians hold the same owner zeal as 10 to 20 year old Bayliners?

PopArcher said:

What I hear around this area is: Once you own a Bayliner, you will always own a Bayliner...
I am not sure how to interpret that statement? Help..

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That's easy...

We bought our first Bayliner in 2000

We liked the boat and since the first one was nice, we bought a bigger one.

When it became our time in life for a boat with more room, we already trusted the Bayliner brand.

We looked at lots of boats, but for us we found what we liked in the 4788 Bayliner as a home we could take almost anywhere.

It's ironic that while Orin Edson owned Pacific Mariner and then Westport, one would sometimes hear criticism of those brands based on him founding Bayliner and the connection. They would then be surprised when I responded by what good boats the Bayliner MY's/Pilothouses etc were. And there are similarities such as the William Garden influence and the efficient production models with both being production boats and the endurance of the boats and brands.

Wonder why we don't see more custom cars built?

My Admiral is one of those who has a bad opinion of Bayliner so I asked how she had formed the opinion. Well, she based it on her experience with Bayliner sailboats and said they were flimsy. Apparently, Bayliner didn't stay in the sailboat business for long.

I showed her some Bayliner power yachts from 37' to 47' on YW and she was very impressed. In fact, she wants to go look at a 47' model. Being the budget conscious guy that I am, trying to convince her maybe best to look at the 37' model.

Good lord, please don't get me into 2 boats!

BandB said:

The fact is that most of us don't require a custom boat as there is a production or semi-production/semi-custom that meets our needs. .

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But, many production or semi custom vessels started out as custom builds. Witness many Nordhavn models that were hull number one. OA on their larger vessel too. Ditto the Westport larger models which remained hull number one for several years.

Tolly was unsure if the 48 would sell because it was so different than his smaller vessels to that point.

Today one can go to the factory of many of the large builders and get a "very" custom build. I have done that investigation with several notable builders for what many wpuld term hull number one.

This is why I asked several on this thread to name the custom builder they were comparing to Bayliner. Some are not so good, some are building Tiffany type vessels. Some like Tiffany overall quality - as a builder that is where the money is and best you get it right.

sunchaser said:

But, many production or semi custom vessels started out as custom builds. Witness many Nordhavn models that were hull number one. OA on their larger vessel too. Ditto the Westport larger models which remained hull number one for several years.

Tolly was unsure if the 48 would sell because it was so different than his smaller vessels to that point.

Today one can go to the factory of many of the large builders and get a "very" custom build. I have done that investigation with several notable builders for what many wpuld term hull number one.

This is why I asked several on this thread to name the custom builder they were comparing to Bayliner. Some are not so good, some are building Tiffany type vessels. Some like Tiffany overall quality - as a builder that is where the money is and best you get it right.

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What size boat are you talking about in asking about custom builders? There really are none in that size range today. Some semi-custom, some of which come closer to production and some closer to custom. True custom building today is primarily 100' plus. In the US the custom builders that come to mind are Trinity, Burger and Delta, none of whom are doing much of anything today.

Lots of custom sportsfishing boats. That is where the custom business is strong. A drive to be the fastest, best performing. The east coast is lined with custom SF builders each building from 1 to 3 boats a year.

Let's be careful about defining these terms. Custom is designed original from bottom up, a naval architect, a new hull design. Semi-Custom is existing hull design and customization within and above. A few go so far as to customize equipment, while others have been described in a way that their customization is you get to pick the color of the upholstery.

Obviously all boats start with an initial hull but that doesn't make them custom when the design and the intent is to market it and repeat it many times.

sunchaser said:

Some are not so good, some are building Tiffany type vessels. Some like Tiffany overall quality - as a builder that is where the money is and best you get it right.

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In the voice of the Geico Commercials: Everybody knows that- but did you know there actually was (is?) a Yacht Builder named Tiffany? Known for big sportfish yachts.

BandB said:

It's ironic that while Orin Edson owned Pacific Mariner and then Westport, one would sometimes hear criticism of those brands based on him founding Bayliner and the connection. They would then be surprised when I responded by what good boats the Bayliner MY's/Pilothouses etc were. And there are similarities such as the William Garden influence and the efficient production models with both being production boats and the endurance of the boats and brands.

Wonder why we don't see more custom cars built?

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Amongst the big boat crowd I know there is a rap on hulls cored below the waterline that applies to several of the Westport and PM models. Whether good or bad, I can say with certainty this rap is not new and has steered buyers away from Westport.

I'd be leery of a cored hull, too. Are all large Bayliner hulls cored below the waterline?

Here are 2 boats of similar layout and size but differ in the quality/finish of the interior details.

2002 Navigator 4800 Pilothouse Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

2002 Bayliner 47 Pilothouse Motoryacht Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Is the Navigator worth an extra $40,000? Personally, I like the Navigator helm visibility better and appreciate the quality finish of the Nav interior.

Another big difference is the engine choice. I'd take the Cummins any day over the Volvo. That's a big plus for the Bayliner in this comparison.

There is no perfect boat!

sunchaser said:

Amongst the big boat crowd I know there is a rap on hulls cored below the waterline that applies to several of the Westport and PM models. Whether good or bad, I can say with certainty this rap is not new and has steered buyers away from Westport.

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So said what buyers, and what did they instead purchase? In the size range of the Pacific Mariner (I assume this is the PM you meant) and the Westports, they've outsold other manufacturers in their size range, what 75 or a 100 to one? I don't actively follow the market of the size range of Westports (above my pay grade), but my broker friends in Ft. Lauderdale who do are always telling me how many yachts Westport quietly sell, and how much money the brokers there make.
I don't think they are lying as it's unusual for brokers to brag on the economic success of other brokers.
You can't argue with success and this sucess is documented by all the boats built and sold.
If Brunswick didn't have their loans called in by Bank of America, they wouldn't had to panic, liquidate and consolidate as they did back in 2008. Again in America as since 2013 the Federal Reserve(it's privately owned I hope you know, not a government agency) and the
Banks won/win on the backs of making citizens fail, then are repeatedly bailed out by our tax dollars when they "hiccup". This is fact.
Consumers would love to be able to buy a Meridian Pilothouse if they still built them. How do I know this? Because people regularly call me and say it. They also regularly say this to the ex-Meridian executives (no longer in the boat biz) when they see them, and they tell me that's the number one question they're asked "what happened to Meridian?".
My question to idiot execitives of giant corporations is :"why did you quit building the VW Beetle, and why would you try to intoduce New Coke, and how can I get a job making stupid decisions and still be rewarded? Must my son go to Harvard to join that club?"

I agree with you there. Corporations and businesses do astoundingly dumb things all the time, including boat makers. Look at McDonalds lately - deteriorating performance and decline, they spend millions on marketing analysis and come up with 9,000 reasons for the decline, when there's one single answer if you ask anybody on the street - crummy, nasty food. Just lay a burger on a paper towel and there's your million dollar market analysis. Business can be astoundingly dumb.

pilothouse king said:

always telling me how many yachts Westport quietly sell, and how much money the brokers there make.
I don't think they are lying as it's unusual for brokers to brag on the economic success of other brokers.
You can't argue with success and this success is documented by all the boats built and sold.

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Yes, you don't see a press release on every sale. They're by far the leading US builder of yachts and most years rank in the top 3 in their size range worldwide. Also one of the most popular charter boats. They typically build 8-12 boats a year.

sunchaser said:

But, many production or semi custom vessels started out as custom builds.

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American Marine's line of Grand Banks started out as a one-off custom boat designed by Ken Smith named Spray. Spray, while different than the first Grand Banks, the GB36, in every respect other than the hull, provided the inspiration and impetus for American Marine to create a production boat line.

BandB said:

Yes, you don't see a press release on every sale. They're by far the leading US builder of yachts and most years rank in the top 3 in their size range worldwide. Also one of the most popular charter boats. They typically build 8-12 boats a year.

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Their website contains boat sold information. Hull #52 (fully cored) for the 112' series was sold in November. It will be interesting to see how the sale of the company plays out. The new owner is in the oil and gas business and with decreasing petro dollars ----------?

kthoennes said:

I Look at McDonalds lately - deteriorating performance and decline.........there's one single answer if you ask anybody on the street - crummy, nasty food.

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Is it really food? Inquiring minds would like to know!

sunchaser said:

So why the P 36 without cup holders?

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LOL, good point! I bought some cup holders and I've promised the Admiral that I'll install them on the sun deck seating.

I had largely narrowed my search down to a few of the Bayliner and Meridian MY models when the Prairie came along. Probably one of those would have been the more logical choice. But we both fell in love with the Prairie.

sunchaser said:

Their website contains boat sold information. Hull #52 (fully cored) for the 112' series was sold in November. It will be interesting to see how the sale of the company plays out. The new owner is in the oil and gas business and with decreasing petro dollars ----------?

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Now that's a good point. Chances are the new owner didn't expect the down turn...
BUT... This could possibly translate into an upturn for the boating industry???


1983 Present 42 Sundeck
Twin Lehman 135's

sunchaser said:

It will be interesting to see how the sale of the company plays out. The new owner is in the oil and gas business and with decreasing petro dollars ----------?

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I wouldn't worry about the Chouest family as they are primarily suppliers of vessels for offshore supply but also their company doesn't have the kind of debt you're so use to seeing. Actually the last I knew they had more demand for boats than they could build in their facilities and had even farmed some builds out. Now that's not saying a downturn isn't possible.

The good part of them acquiring is that it's kept in the hands of boaters and not an investment firm. The Chouest family has always been actively involved, especially in fishing (They own ACY as well). Oh and Gary did already personally own a Westport.

My only thought/concern with Bayliners is when the next time they'll throw a large wake at me.

This is a legitimate question as I really don't have a clue of the answer...

Are any Bayliner hulls cored below the waterline? None? Does it vary with model? Year?

If you own an 89 38' Motoryacht, I built the galley in it. And I helped put the deck on.

Oh yea, and I installed the portlights too.

FlyWright said:

This is a legitimate question as I really don't have a clue of the answer...

Are any Bayliner hulls cored below the waterline? None? Does it vary with model? Year?

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Per Jack Horner in a 2012 Boat US article the 4550/4588 hull is a laminate cored with foam below the waterline.

Pierce said:

Oh yea, and I installed the portlights too.

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But you own a Tollycraft

Love this thread. We bought a 4788 after owning a 2855. The wife of a friend with an upscale 26 footer offered to trade us straight up for our significantly older 2855. We're talking an $80,000 difference in acquisition costs. We sold the 2855 and bought a 4788.

We love our 4788. Beautiful design, well-built, and a wonderful Pilothouse to run from.

I am in the insurance business. Car insurance varies based on frequency of losses, costs to repair, and lots of other variables. We also insure boats and yachts. There is absolutely no cost difference to insure a Bayliner versus any other boat of a similar insured value. If Bayliners were more likely to sink, there would be a difference. They aren't and there isn't.

Presently enjoying 5 mm of solid steel for the hull.