Whats wrong with Bayliners?

To be fair Kthoennes, I think the worst years for small Bayliner runabouts was the '80's. Picture those cheap plastic windsheids, paper thin gelcoat and cheap vinyl . Bayliner made no bones about it nor did their salesmen. It is what it is and it is priced accordingly. It made a lot of folks happy. But their reputation suffered because they threw a price point boat on the market. And everybody knew it. And these thoughts linger.

Bayliner and Sea Ray manufacturers (among others) came to Tollycraft's founder/owner/President back in the 70's / 80's, looking to join forces; i.e. Robert Merland Tollefson... "Mr. Tolly" himself.

Robert thought deeply and had the best accountants look through the financial books of those asking him to "come-aboard" for massive manufacturing expansion. Mr. Tolly, a great boat designer himself, had renowned marine craft architect Monk Sr. do most hulls, Monk Jr. was in it too. Tolly designed superstructures and interiors.

Mr. Tolly was producing some of the highest quality boats available. But… he kept his books in order and was not into loaned financial leverage. The others were… so, Tolly turned them all down and stayed on his path of build to capital available.

When Mr. Tolly became too old: Tollycraft built 6,500 or more very nice craft. It was sold to an investment group that too soon put the company on the financial rocks and it eventually sunk (i.e. closed its doors in receivership).

The rest is history. Tollycraft boats are well-built classics that if cared for will last a loooooog time. But, Tollycraft is a dead Company. The others took different path. Their boats if cared for will also have long lives. And, they are still very alive companies.

That’s the answer… What’s the question?

Another part of the answer is that no matter the used boat (unless the boat’s build-out or design was bunk from the get go) it all has to do with how well the craft was looked after and cared for by previous owner(s).

We've had 3 Bayliners - 2455 express, 3270 sedan bridge and the 3870 we have now. All have been very well laid out interiors with more useable space than other similar sized boats. The only problem on any of them was a grenaded lower unit on the 2455 lower unit (OMC cobra) There are 4 larger bays in the marina 2665, 3870, 3988 and 5788 in 5 years they've only had normal maintenance, no breakdowns, the 3 larger ones are diesel power 2 Hinos and Mans in the 57. The 26 got towed in once because the safety kill lanyard had pulled loose just enough it wouldn't start. I would love a 45 or 47 for the pilothouse but not enough to spend the $$$ to wash a bigger boat.

A lot of the Bayliner bashing and other boat brand bad mouthing can be traced back to boat salesmen and owner personal preference. You know. .. If you're selling or a proud owner of Chevrolets, then Ford, Chrysler, imports, etc. are junk and that sales pitch rhetoric rubs off on the buyers to where they believe and repeat it too!!


I heard a lot of that when I was boat shopping back in the 70's, when even GB and other non US built boats were branded sub standard because of what the sales person might say.

We had a 23' Bayliner Skagit Offshore and it was a wonderful fishing machine and great rough water boat. We often would run around the west side of Vancouver Island to fish salmon and halibut and if you think that isn't open ocean. . . try it sometime!!

ps: They're right about Fords, Chevrolets and imports. . . It's Mopar or no car all the way!! :lol:

I've chartered twice in my life, both times were out of Orcas Island in the San Juans, and both times from the same boat owner.

The first was a GB 32. It was my first "big boat" (I owned a 20' bowrider) and my wife and I had a great time on board.

The second was a Bayliner 4588 MY. We chartered with another couple and all of us agreed the boat was perfect. It was quiet, comfortable, spacious and economical to cruise in.

My only other experience on a Bayliner was in the summer of 2013 when I helped a guy take a 5788 from Seattle to Stockton. The boat was nice, spacious and comfortable.

I did notice that it seemed to ride a bit rougher than my boat does in about a 5' and higher sea. I asked the owner what the dry weight was and the number he gave me was about 10,000 pounds lighter than my 550 Sedan Bridge. I suspect that was part of the reason it seemed to ride more like a cork, but I suspect another part might have been hull design.

If I were in the market now for a smaller boat than what I have I would not overlook the Bayliners.

Those who do not like Bayliners for a variety of reasons have learned to keep their opinions to themselves on an open forum. Lest the very large population of Bayliner owners go nuts. Same as bashing any other boat brand, just good manners.

So to the OP, don't believe the extremes as to Bayliner likes or dislikes, look at lots of boats and form your opinion.

We purchased a used Bayliner 2859 a few years before Hurricane Katrina. She sported an "Alaskan Bulkhead". I felt it was a very well built boat- though a bit shy on the engine accessibility and handling on plane. Here's a shot of me prepping her for Katrina. I musta missed something cause she sank right there at the marina in Bay St. Louis Mississippi. She was set up smart- and we had a lot of fun with her at the coastal islands.


1983 Present 42 Sundeck
Twin Lehman 135's

I believe the Searay owners do the majority of Bayliner bashing. Little do most of them know, bayliner and searay are owned by Brunswick. Since the recession began back in 08 i believe many of them are made in the same factories in Tennessee. I think many manufacturers have had design issues over the years, the question is how did they respond to make good on them. Searay was not good at all in this area.

manyboats said:

However one needs to consider that mass produced products have built in advantages and disadvantages just because they are mass produced. A one-off lobsterboat yacht built by a small yard in Maine will pay considerably more for much of the materials used and thus have a higher price. Buyers seeing the low price of mass produced boat like Bayliner may think the Bayliner is a cheap boat made haphazardly w cheap materials. The opposite may be true. But to sell more boats by keeping the price low corners may be cut and inferior materials and design may be used.

The Bayliner boat probably does/did both. Corners are probably cut to save money and in some places better materials may be used. So reality is probably a wash and the Bayliner is probably an average boat in many ways, a better boat in some ways and an inferior boat in some ways.

But who will know until opinions and dock talk are replaced w facts and specifics.

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Well said. Let me add one slightly different perspective that I'd never have thought of before I bought my Bayliner.

I've always preferred the look of a good, salty down-east boat, or any other "working" boat lines. I think wood looks great, and I'm not impressed by shiny plastic Clorox bottles. I like custom boats.

But here's the thing. I discovered that a LOT of engineering went into the design of my Bayliner. Every model year they made minor changes. New cup holders. Extending the space under a seat to hold a cooler. Replacing the helm seat on a pole with a molded-in platform, producing a huge stowage compartment under it. All these design features, large and small - all these little conveniences - add up.

The truth is, for all their beauty, custom boats just don't have this level of engineering for every small detail.

Honestly anything said about Bayliners covers so many years and so many models, it don't mean Jack! Anyone commenting has a model, year, or design that they liked or didn't, and holy cow did Bayliner have a lot of designs! Most were poorly suited for saltwater, and sold in lake country. Of course some people put them in the salt, things rusted and decayed, and they took them out in conditions they shouldn't have. Bayliner Corporation changed the engine and outdrive combinations pretty much contingent on low bid, and some were problematic. My Volvo was trouble free, probably the best outdrive, but they priced themselves out of Bayliners, with OMC making a lot of people unhappy. Two years later Mercruiser made a lot of people happy. I have no idea if Bayliner learned anything. They cored their small boats first, had very efficient and light hulls, and made excellent use of space. When Sea Sport and manufacturers like them popped up, all they had to do was emulate design with higher quality and they had a market.

Joke in Alaska... Boater talking to friend on VHF "I'm anchored up here with two other boats". Friend answers back "a Bayliner and what else?"

Marin was right on point. It's the owners that are the problem, not the boats. New boaters without any experience buy them as a party boat, then move right up to a 45-57 foot model and operate it like the 27 foot they had. Yes, they slow down to a little when coming into a anchorage, and now the boat has a 4 foot wake following them in. And they can't figure out why no one will help them tie up. Shortly, 4 of their friends come in, they all raft together, and party until 3 in the morning. There should be a "common sense"class people need to take before they can get their safe boaters card from the state. If your a Bayliner owner who does not fall into this group, my hats off to you!!

CaptTom said:

Well said. Let me add one slightly different perspective that I'd never have thought of before I bought my Bayliner.

I've always preferred the look of a good, salty down-east boat, or any other "working" boat lines. I think wood looks great, and I'm not impressed by shiny plastic Clorox bottles. I like custom boats.

But here's the thing. I discovered that a LOT of engineering went into the design of my Bayliner. Every model year they made minor changes. New cup holders. Extending the space under a seat to hold a cooler. Replacing the helm seat on a pole with a molded-in platform, producing a huge stowage compartment under it. All these design features, large and small - all these little conveniences - add up.

The truth is, for all their beauty, custom boats just don't have this level of engineering for every small detail.

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Well Put - And True!

CaptTom said:

The truth is, for all their beauty, custom boats just don't have this level of engineering for every small detail.

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What brand or builder are you referring to? I have seen plenty of custom builds that are true works of engineering art and seaworthy as all get out. This past year to name a few, Devlin, Dashew, Romsdal and a wooden Bill Garden design.

Well, there you have it!

If anybody would like to come to Seward, Alaska and examine my 2001 Bayliner 4788 closely you are welcome to, so long as you compare item for item with other production boats.

Here's what you'll find...

*Cummins engines coupled with hurth transmissions
*Alumanium fuel tanks designed and installed so you won't have to replace them.
*Westerbeke generators (I have a Northern Lights though)
*Foam cored decks (no balsa to rot)
*A very well designed and executed doubble layer foam cored hull (No record of hull issues or even blisters on my model).
*Teak interior with some wallpaper
*Carpeted soles, except the galley
*An actual utility room for pumps, water heater, etc... with a watertight bulkhead separating it from the engine room.
*Standard marine appliances (princess stove, norcold fridges)

The list goes on and on guys. As much as we like to think "our boat" is better, they all have pretty much the same stuff making them up.

Some say that Bayliners are inexpensive boats. I would ask you to go look at yachtworld.com A Bayliner 4788 on Yachtworld ranges from a low of approx $150K to well upwards of $200K. Now go do a search for other 47' SD boats. Bayliner is right in the middle price wise. You can buy allot of really "famous" boats for allot less money than the same size Bayliner, and you can pay more as well.

As far as seaworthyness goes, Well... I boat in the pacific ocean, not the protected waters of anywhere else. The previous owner of my boat based it out of Newport Oregon, and used it as an offshore tuna fishing platform. For a SD hull form it handles just like the other SD boats I have run next to in the same seas. Yes a FD boat will generally handle rough water better, but thats not a Bayliner argumet now is it

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptTom
The truth is, for all their beauty, custom boats just don't have this level of engineering for every small detail.

sunchaser said:

What brand or builder are you referring to? I have seen plenty of custom builds that are true works of engineering art and seaworthy as all get out. This past year to name a few, Devlin, Dashew, Romsdal and a wooden Bill Garden design.

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sunchaser,

I respectfully say:

Repetitive or even similar-like models of good quality production boats (same as production cars, motorcycles, planes and other items) have year after year of build-outs that could/should establish multiple levels of improved design and engineering; in effort to compound toward ease of use as well as structural integrity, power source betterment, and sea worthiness, and, reduced costs for thousands of purchasers (termed consumers in the realm of production manufacturing items). Of course, even though meant with best intent, some of the improvements (changes) made to production boats do not always pan out correctly and others are for monetary reasons only – that may produce good or bad results for the boat’s integrity in general. Therefore, the production cycle of the next year or even of years forward have opportunities to modify or remove previous alterations while installing what is planned (engineered) to be even better improvements.The term “practice makes perfect” (as perfect as possible that is – lol) may even be applicable to use here in regard to “production”.

Whereas, some custom (one-off) boats experience great design/engineering and have fabulous build-out quality that amounts to a finely honed seagoing craft… but, they simply do not have the same years long “production-line” level of trial and error for providing, trying, and then appropriately modifying designs as required that can make levels of boat ownership and ease-of-use even better or less expensive for thousands of owners.Production boats can not only improve design/engineering during new-year models, they can also improve or engineer-modify many build-out kinks mid-stream on a boat model’s production-line.I experienced this while working for a production boat builder when very young.Same builder had a sizable shop area catering to fairly large one-offs (50 to 65 footers; wood and FRP)… there were sometimes stressful conditions that arose wherein the hands-on builders needed to on-site modify engineered plans.Those nearly instant modifications for staying (“on-time” of completion) came out for the good I guess… but, after all is said and done, it is still a one-off boat.Not much room for future production-line improvement regarding that or any other on-site alteration.

Then we get down to good-ol’, flat-out dollar and cents cost: I’d project that there may be an averaged cost deferential of 50% +/- reduction regarding same sized production boats as compared to custom boats.

Much of this discussion about Bayliners, other production-line boats, and custom or one-off boats simply comes down to “different strokes for different folks”; regarding why a boat is purchased, how a boat will be used, and how much a boat coats… oh yeah, and how much bragging rights a boat owner needs to feel good inside their own mind.

Human ego and psychology do play a part in owning nearly anything… especially big, pretty, costly things… such as a boat!

Happy Pleasure-Boat Owning Daze! - Art

Art
I ask you the same question as Capt Tom, what custom build boats are your referring to that lack engineering detail as compared to a Bayliner? And please don't say that placement of cup holders or a place to store the cooler is an important engineering advancement for 45' to 50' vessels.

The roots of Bayliner are interesting with the early on PNW owners and designers creating cost effective and modern vessels that are as much responsible for the demise of Tollycraft and the 45' to 50' OAs as anything. When the Brunswick group purchased Bayliner these savvy guys went on to bigger and bolder vessels building Westports and Pacific Mariners.

Kevin's 4788 is iconic with the later model Meridians continuing that line. IMHO no other Bayliner (or Searay or Carver for that matter) from that era can compare to the 4788 as far as thought and details of construction. Are they still building that model Kevin?

I strongly dislike the title of this thread as it implies something is wrong with Bayliners. Bayliner MY's have more than withstood the test of time. Those built in Arlington, WA, reflected the quality of work often seen in the PNW. Someone commented on them designing their own but William Garden had a tremendous influence on Bayliner.

There is something I find very bothersome about boat owners and car owners and their love for cutting down other brands. Today, Sea Ray's get talked negatively about constantly by owners of other brands and dealers. The reality is Sea Ray and Bayliner have more satisfied customers than any other brands. They have been part of making boating available to the mainstream. We speak of the Bayliner runabouts, especially their early days. Well, the made the biggest impact in the industry and changed it more than anything else that has happened during this period. They got people into boating who otherwise could not have entered.

I see Bertrams delaminating, but not Bayliner MY's. I see Azimut with all sorts of electrical problems, but not Bayliner MY's. Is Bayliner designed to cross oceans? Of course not, but then very few boats are. But put them to the test in the normal uses most people encounter and they'll more than hold their own. And when conditions become too bad for them to handle, they're probably too bad for the other brands being tossed about too.

I've never owned a Bayliner, but I wish there was a comparable MY built today. 40-60' with all the amenities, easily maintained (compared to others) built to take the test of time and moderately priced. Sounds like the ideal boat in so many ways. No, there may be better for those who can afford and are willing to spend more, but most can't or won't.

When Bayliner came out it was popular to criticize. Sea Ray dealers were the worst at it, until years later most of them carried Bayliner after the purchase. It's less expensive so the only way to compete is to characterize it as junk. I see people today spending tens and hundreds of thousands of dollars rebuilding legendary brands like Post or Chris Craft. Yet, I see Bayliners picked up inexpensively and sound and not requiring that expenditure. We let perceptions confuse us on quality.

And why do we not have Bayliner MY's and cruisers today? It has nothing to do with quality. In fact, it has to do with pricing. Brunswick switched the name to Meridian for one reason and one reason only. They didn't like the price structure they inherited on Bayliner, felt they were selling too much boat for the price. So change the label, raise the price very significantly and continue. Unfortunately that didn't lead to success as the consumer isn't as dumb as sometimes thought.

I know more happy cruisers and trawlerers who own older Bayliners than i do any other brand of their vintage. But then there are more happy Ford owners than Mercedes and certainly more happy Toyota owners than Ferrari. And, of course the auto equivalent of Bayliner was Hyundai. Everyone liked criticizing them while they provided a warranty the industry had never seen. And they've grown. And they've sold to people who otherwise couldn't have afforded such a new car.

So, I applaud the man with the vision who developed Bayliner. He saw new and better methods of boat manufacturing that would allow building a better boat for less money.

Real happy Bayliner Motoryacht owners hanging in our favorite waterfront joint in Miami. Who want's to come start an argument with us?

If we recognize certain builders for the amazing boats they designed, we should credit Orin Edson for the amazing boat building company he designed. No other boat builder understood the pleasure boating industry quite so well, or understood how to bring the right boat at the right price. Other manufacturers followed their hearts, but did not bring the level of business acumen that Orin did.

Let's take Tolly for example (I never once heard him addressed as Robert). Tolly first and foremost followed his heart. He was a cruiser first and foremost. He built his first boat and cruised it all the way to Princess Louisa. It was by building boats for himself, and the accidental interest generated by that activity that he got into into the boating business. But he always built boats that he would like and appreciate himself. He also cared deeply for his employees. Deep down he thought of them as his family. So when Orin came knocking on his door, Orin was building boats for everybody. The notion of financial leverage I believe was true too and certainly was mentioned, Tolly after all most definitely believed in a more conservative financial approach I have little doubt. But the inflections in his voice indicated something else. I think it came down more concretely to individualism. Tolly wanted to follow his own star. Most of the builders of that era were like that. Art Nordvedt of Uniflite fame struck me similarly. These guys were building boats "for everyone" too. They were not trying to build trophies, certainly not in the way many of today's zealots somehow believe that these company's could do no wrong. Quite to the contrary, these were very practical men, and smart. They knew where to shave a dollar or two. Tolly did not like it when people worshipped his boats too much, as he knew all the places where he wished they could have added a little here, or not compromised there. But that's the point, they were smartly building practical functional boats that people could afford, but boats that were designed for a purpose. These guys were balancing economy with a vision, their own glorious visions. They were extremely innovative too. Tolly started building pli-cor boats, a method of brutally strong and well insulated foam encapsulated vacuum sealed fiberglass construction a full 30 years before it was embraced feverishly by today's builders.

Orin was theoretically doing the same thing, yet his formula was somehow different. I think his vision was centered around the act of building, more than the product itself. He brought innovation to being able to drive cost out of the building process itself. Like a pop song, he knew what the songs hook was going to be and focused on that, then like a chorus, he repeated it again and again. The things we do today to drive efficiency in production today, Orin was bringing to the boat building business decades ahead of his time. Deep down, this is what I think Tolly was really afraid of at the time. He wanted to build boats, Orin wanted to build a company. Both can be credited with a fine legacy.

I toured the Arlington plant twice, once as Bayliner, once just after they had created the Meridian brand. Even post Meridian, I still heard rumblings from employees on whether they would be allowed to "build boats right". I had heard notions of pulling hulls out of molds too soon, and other such complaints that create an image of employees wanting to be craftsman, but being held back by a stubborn Homer Simpson management.

When I walked into the factory, I saw something much different than the anecdotes from a few employees and line manager had built a vision for me. What I saw was what we call today six sigma. I came out of that factory knowing I had just seen the most engineered boat of my lifetime. Let me explain. Engineering or design can be optimized for many things. The boats I saw being manufactured were engineered for something many of their employees had not even realized. The boats were engineered for consistency. Boats are typically made in small numbers, small design details change constantly. Seeing a uniform product assembly in a boat was not what I was prepared for. It was the way uniform blocks of wood were inserted in the layup, just large enough to take a screw from the fitting that would go on top. It was the repeatable way wiring harnesses were being constructed. It was this and a hundred other details. It was the sophisticated cad design. It was the life sized mill that could cut an entire boat mold out of blocks of foam, straight from cad. These boats were not designed to be the strongest or fastest, they were designed to be the most consistently built boats. That's how you identify savings. That's how you deliver a predictable product. If something fails, you redesign within very narrow parameters and produce a product that then works. I finally understood the frustrations of individual employees. When you produce goods this way, consistency is valued above all else, including individuality. Placing extra screws in a rail, or other quality improvements are not appreciated, in fact they are not wanted until such time as empirical measurement shows that an extra screw is warranted. It's no fun being a cog in the wheel, and I don't think many of their workers realized the extent of the theory in which their production line operated.

So I have a healthy respect for the kind of product Bayliner has been producing. They are well engineered boats. Not too much, not too little. Just right.

pilothouse king said:

View attachment 35791
Real happy Bayliner Motoryacht owners hanging in our favorite waterfront joint in Miami. Who want's to come start an argument with us?

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Not me ... but have a question ...

What is the 40-50 LOA Bayliner hull made like? Solid, cored, thickness, etc?

Despite the "name stigma" I like the amenities the brand offers, the helm layout is a dream. Just trying to learn as much as I can about 2000-2008 Bayliners and their bling bling Meridian copies.


EDIT: found some answers here ... Bayliner and Meridian Pilothouses- HISTORY AND UPDATES ...

Some of the early Bayliners relied on the house window frames to completely support the fly bridge, not good engineering principle.

Holy moly do these get so far off track...we are talking someone in the market for a Bayliner and wants to know what the build quality is. Nothing mentioned about wanting a custom boat build, granite/stainless/teak everything, high end rig to impress Muffy down at the yacht club. Seems like lots of people want to discuss how they stack up to non-comparables.


It's like asking how do you like your Tahoe SUV and getting responses on how people like their Range Rovers.

I still think it's about name. Even General Motors said this is a" Vega" and this is a "Fleetwood". There is difference. Bayliner patched their name on all kinds of boats. To their detriment. This thread is a witness. "Meridian"? Too little too late because people are still asking questions.

I have no idea how many Bayliner owners there are on this site, but I haven't heard any of them critical of Bayliner. Yet the OP refers to them being held in low regard. It's like a Lincoln owner degrading Ford which outsells them 25 to 1. Today in new boats in the 30'-60' range, Sea Ray is not only by far the leading seller but probably outsells the next five or six combined. Yet, I'll hear yacht owners and trawler owners say they're no good. There's a certain elitism that enters into the argument and also feeling like the other boat was cheaper so it can't possible be as good.

I've looked extensively at all the new offerings in the 40'-60' range. I haven't found a boat offered today in that range that has a better layout and more functionality than 4788's, 5288's and 5788's. Similarly I love the Pacific Mariner 65 which is no longer offered but sold hundreds. Now there are boats that are better for certain uses, but you can say that about any brand. There's always some use for which another boat is better.

Now I'll add one last thought. Most new boats are good. They may have some weakness but there are very few "bad" boats being built today. For a used boat buyer however there is the question of how they stand the test of time. There are some brands that have almost cult following but the older models regularly have certain problems.

Russel hit the fastener in the head: people. With all due respect, Bayliners and Sea Rays are populated by proportionately higher numbers of morons. Sadly, I've been cut off and waked by more Bs and SRs, kept up at night, disturbed in quiet anchorages by denizens of Bs and SRs, watched more anchoring and docking gong shows perpetrated by Bs and SRs.

Having said all that and p*ssing off lots of posters on the site, I have two friends with Bs, (nobody I know owns a Sea Ray). One owner has a 37 and the other has a 47something something and both of them are fine mariners with a high regard for the rules and common courtesy and look after their boats.

So there.

fair enough. but...oh never mind.

More of any kind of boat and you will have more morons....plenty in every group of boats...even trawlers...maybe even disproportionately so.

As far as flying bridges held up by window frames....Lots of boats out there that way...none claim to be bluewater boats and they all have done just fine...therefore it must be good engineering that allows that design.

We became quite good friends with a couple who have a 4788. He's a former airline pilot and quite a discerning individual. The upper and lower helms of his boat remind me of the cockpit of a jetliner (not that I have ever been in one), all nicely tricked out with lotsa switches and things. He's a doit yourselfer and quite competent. The boat has the feel of a modern condominium. Our KK42 is more like a heritage apartment. His is a really nice boat and well set up for their tastes--as ours is for our tastes.


Jim
Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum

sunchaser said:

Art
I ask you the same question as Capt Tom, what custom build boats are your referring to that lack engineering detail as compared to a Bayliner? And please don't say that placement of cup holders or a place to store the cooler is an important engineering advancement for 45' to 50' vessels.

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sunchaser

Pease read my post # 45 again. In second paragraph I mentioned custom build boats have great engineering. You are taking comparison between custom and production builds in the wrong light - IMHO. Read all the other posts too.

Some words and meanings in this thread are getting mixed up into the wars of semantics.

I could say that all good boats are just fine in my opinion!

Art

Uh-oh. I may have started the thread drift by bringing my own love of well-crafted custom boats into to conversation, as a foil for the argument against production boats. And very few brands have more boats in production than Bayliner, so I think that's a fair use of the term.

If someone wants to take this off-line, I'd happily recite all the engineering details that led me to buy my Bayliner. Certainly it was more than cup holders and coolers. But I don't think we want to go there in this thread. Suffice it to say, I once held some disdain for mass-produced boats. Ten years of serious coastal cruising on a Bayliner cured me of that.

With that experience, I'd buy another Bayliner in a heartbeat. Which is what I think the OP wanted to know.