How many cruise very remote areas with single engine & no backup?

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sunchaser said:
Lots of backup I betcha in the way of crew and an onboard warehouse. The engineers on these big fishing boats are pretty skilled and those I have met can fix most anything that poses problems. This point has been raised by many on this thread, ie, suitable spares and skills to use them are a necessity when cruising and working offshore with a single.
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I completely agree Tom. The bigger point I was trying unsuccessfully to make is anyone going "offshore" had better have a good working knowledge of all their mechanical systems. I don't care if you have four engines with twin get homes if your fuel is crap you're in big trouble unless you can figure out how to deal with it at sea. You can carry a complete spare engine, transmission, shaft and prop with a Snap-On truck full of tools but if you don't know how to use them effectively you're just as screwed as the person without spares.

If someone is not mechanically inclined they would do well to hire someone who is to tag along offshore regardless of engine configuration IMO.
 
And a day tank, above the engine, Gravity fed, 25 to 50 gallons previously filtered, ready to go, fed from the bottom of the day tank to the engine through still more filters. What, 5, 3, micron or what? How small, your call?? Elimates surprises. More controllable.
======================================

QUOTE=Tidahapah;273728]two due to clogged fuel filters
- one due to broken fuel line
- one due to broken injector line

Mate, until recently when I fitted the ketch rig to my vessel I cruised some pretty remote places out here in the Great Barrier Reef in a single engine motor cruiser.
had only one engine malfunction and that was a fractured low pressure fuel line that was repaired on board with in a couple of minutes.
From the list above none of those problems should have occurred if the fuel system and pipe work had been maintained and inspected properly.
With good inspection ports and drain traps fuel tanks can be maintained in a very clean state.
Fuel pipes and injector pipes inspected frequently and I always carry some high pressure steel pipe and fittings of the required size. Hose and hose clamps for low pressure pipes.

As long as you don't go the way of electronic diesel engines and keep it simple it should never be a problem.
Double RACORs and a polishing system will keep the fuel in good condition and a good supply of filter elements as a final back up.
Diesel engine , air , fuel and water is all that it is about, Plus good maintenance.

In saying that I have now fitted a ketch rig as a back up and also fuel conserver.
Cheers
Benn[/QUOTE]
 
Tidahapah said:
"Quote... From the list above none of those problems should have occurred if the fuel system and pipe work had been maintained and inspected properly...End of quote"

Mate, I have just made a coastal trip non-stop for 4 days and 12 hours on a single engine without any back up get home system. Ok, the boat is new but the systems were unknown so was the engine. In some parts of the trip the distance to shore was greater than 75 miles.

As you can see by your own experience, 75% of the mechanical problems with diesel engines are related to fuel, therefore, mostly related to the quality of the preventive maintenance that we do. My grandfather fished for cod for years in one engine fishing boats, back in those days of slow heavy engines. he always came back from New Foundland.



That's my 2 cents
 
Mate, I have just made a coastal trip non-stop for 4 days and 12 hours on a single engine without any back up get home system. Ok, the boat is new but the systems were unknown so was the engine. In some parts of the trip the distance to shore was greater than 75 miles.



I missed the big splash. Good to hear she is running. The wife and I are land cruising.
 
Bay Pelican said:
If I were to travel to the remote locations in the Caribbean with a single engine vessel without a back up system my preference would be with:

naturally aspirated engine
manual as opposed to electronic controls
rubber fuel lines (or the ability to work with copper)
fuel polishing system
keel which protects the prop
spare prop
replacement parts for everything on the engine including the starter

.
Click to expand...

Marty has summed up my situation well.

The only spares I don't have connected to the engine are an injection pump and a transmission.
 
This guy seems to think a single engine is ok in remote places with no backup.

Perhaps 99% of the worlds commercial vessel do the same.
 
Portuguese said:
Tidahapah said:
"Quote... From the list above none of those problems should have occurred if the fuel system and pipe work had been maintained and inspected properly...End of quote"



As you can see by your own experience, 75% of the mechanical problems with diesel engines are related to fuel, therefore, mostly related to the quality of the preventive maintenance that we do. My grandfather fished for cod for years in one engine fishing boats, back in those days of slow heavy engines. he always came back from New Foundland.
Click to expand...

Which is also another reason that I did not think the investment in a wing engine was worth while.

My only point in getting back into this discussion and :horse:

is that as I read various plans for whatever could come up: 6 eyes at night, 3 engines, 4 props, a helicopter, etc, The common theme is that if one prepares well enough, (using a checklist of course), they will be safe and sound.

So my belabored point, is that while it provides peace of mind, the data shows it's a false sense of security.
 
I've repeated this story several times ..... My Great Grandfather ran a 40' wooden trawler with a single cylinder diesel from the north of Scotland to Iceland on several occasions.

All of the trawlers in this photo (Fraserburgh, Scotland) are single engine boats and these guys went out routinely into the North Sea in conditions that would horrify most of us. I've cruised from Duluth, MN to the Caribbean with a single engine and never gave it a second thought.

I guess my Scottish blood makes me too cheap for twins.
 

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Our boat 53 foot wooden Banca in the Philippines has just one engine with no aux. or sail. We've put around 2000 hours on her in some pretty remote areas. Never offshore more than 25 miles but sometimes 40 miles to a safe anchorage. You wont get any coast guard help here. I do carry a Iridium sat phone and since last year a parachute anchor, which the one time we tested it seemed to keep the bow into the wind. We haven't been dead in the water for any length of time before we made repairs and got her going again. This is with an engine manufactured originaly around 1969, and rebuilt twice. Isuzu DA640 six diesel and three speed automotive transmission.
I'd rather die at sea then in a nursing home. Not sure the wife feels the same.
Better to wear out than rust out.
 
Diesel engines , like all other pieces of machinery , may suffer from some internal flaw.

The usual concept is to operate the engine for a few hundred hours , before going on an offshore passage.

If it works for an hour , it will probably work for 10

If it works for 10 , it will probably do 100

If it works for 100 , it should make 1000,

After 1000 it is trustworthy enough to run till its worn out.
 
Fresh,
I lost power awhile back and tried to use my anchor (dropped about 40') to keep the bow into the wind and waves. Just didn't work. We lay in the troughs while I worked on the engine taking a beating all the while. Got a tow in an hour or two.

Do you have a shaft brake for shifting?
 
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Just don't turn your engine off someplace where you don't want to be for couple days and you'll be fine. Give a Diesel engine clean fuel it will run for a long time and give you a little warning before needing a major repair.
 
Why the fixation of so many single engine boat owners that their approach is somehow sacred? Maybe it goes back to this minimalist notion ---:hide:.
 
Eric

I have a foot clutch peddle just like a truck, shift with my foot and only use 2nd gear in forward, or neutral or reverse. It's propped for 2nd gear. I'm going to try and get 3rd gear put where reverse is now. Reverse gear is too much reduction and really not much use. If I need get stopped in a hurry one of the crew drops a stern anchor and snubs her off. Kinda crude but gets me out on the water. Does this answer your question?
 
Fresh,
Very interesting and sorta fun information. Thought of doing that many times in my younger days mostly.
Why don't you use low and reverse? Seems to me that would solve your ratio problem. Syncromesh issues? Is the pitch/dia ratio of your prop not suitable for first and reverse? Perhaps a change in your prop would get you there. One shouldn't have too much dia and too little pitch or too little dia and too much pitch. I think a pitch of about .75 of dia is about right .. 20 pitch 15 dia for example.
Does your transmission and more importantly the oil run a bit warm or hot?
What have you provided for a thrust bearing?

Tom,
Haha that shoes in quite easily dosn't it? Haha
I think the single engine thing is more of an dependant/independant or/and masculinity thing. Many view twin engine boating as a "hasn't got the balls to go out w/o a backup". He's "depending on his "spare"" to get home. And for all of us independant can do types we don't need no stink'in spare like all the pansys w twins. Or if it breaks I'm a man, know my mechanics and I'm smart enough to figure it out. No need to say "mommy mommy send help".

Well .. those of us that can really think can clearly see that having a backup engine is just plain smart and responsible. And perhaps we have less of a need to be seen as a Crocodile Dundie or Clint Eastwood. And w our superior brain power have less of a chance of going down w the ship.

Sacred you say Tom? Well yes I suppose our masculinity is a bit sacred. And have you noticed when you go to the store you want to find things yourself and your wife is very prone to ask somebody for help. The ask somebody method gets things done quicker and more efficiently but does little for your masculinity and independence.
 
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FF said:
Diesel engines , like all other pieces of machinery , may suffer from some internal flaw.
Click to expand...

Internal flaws are very rare.

In the marine engine business, I'd offer a guess that the marinization + or - s are the key design and build factors for great reliability with the base engine issues whether Cummins, JD, Cat, Perkins Sabre or Komatsu being rather minor. Witness the marine success of Lugger and NL who do not make any of their engines.

But no amount of great effort on the engine builder's part will make up for poor maintenance of the marinization parts and pieces from the RW pump through to the exhaust system.

And then there is the issue of ill equipped blue water skippers, cockamamie designs (many out there) and lackluster builds that can render the best of marine engines of secondary importance.

So my take is those that successfully cruise (and return) to remote places usually have the full package.
 
Lots of people do it with one motor so did I until the summer of 2007. Motor went crunch north west passage. 5 hour tow to Sontula where could not fix. 2 hour tow to port Mc neil where head came off could not get boat out of water or remove motor or fix in boat. Hydraulic lift truck and 7 hour haul to where motor was replaced. On East coast never had a problem with one motor cruising always repair near by, but Northwest above Campell River I now prefer two motors. My case is the rare exception but it can happen and I have come across others who had similar bad experience with one motor up north or limped home on one of two motors.
 
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Reverse gear and I think first gear are the same or close. I can redline the engine but the prop is not turning fast. Just like your car, lots of power but little speed in first or reverse. I do use reverse but it takes a very long time to stop the boat and won't in stop it in much of a following sea. The prop bushings are made out of Star Apple wood that grows here. A very hard oily wood. Just take it to a machine shop and tell em what to turn the wood too. I had a retired navy guy tell me that subs used wood bushings for sound????
The engine has a bilge keel cooler. The engine doesn't have a place any longer for a thermostat and runs too cool. Think I will install a gate valve to restrict the flow if I choose so I can bring the temp up some. The wet exhaust is a force sea water system and only works when the boat is moving forward.
 
Fresh,
Often I'm sorry I ask a question but that is not the case here. Very interesting and thanks for sharing your unusual propulsion system.
I'm not nuts about your fwd motion "water pump" but it may be less likely to fail than what most of us use.
Wood bushings? .. Are you talking about "stern bearings"? PNW fishermen typically did that in the 30s and 40s. Lignunvita was used. I have a 3' 4 X 4. And yes wood absorbs vibration much better than metal. I'd be looking for a better temp control system though. Too much flow in the water jackets causes problems and too little causes overheating of course. If you had a by-pass system that allowed a constant flow allowing a variable injection of cool water into the system it may be a step ahead but perhaps you will be able to reclaim the thermostat that came w the engine. That would seem better but I'm sure there's a good reason you don't just do that.
As to the gears I think it would be a good idea to get propped for 1st gear. Any chance of that? Would a suitable dia/pitch be easily employed?
I remember Skagway mostly from the layovers on the state ferries when I worked on them. The "Princess Pat" (Patricia) also called on Skagway at that time ... early 70s.
 
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funangler said:
Just don't turn your engine off someplace where you don't want to be for couple days and you'll be fine. Give a Diesel engine clean fuel it will run for a long time and give you a little warning before needing a major repair.
Click to expand...
There is one circumstance where there may be no warning such as an over loaded motor breaking an exhaust valve. This was a not so rare thing with Hinklys and other boats using Yanmar 6LY 2A STE motors at 440 HP which were very sensitive to overload and builders set up and advised running near the edge.
 
Our boat has what I think is called a stern tube, The 1 1/2 inch prop shaft runs down the center of that and running through a front center and rear bushing (wooden bearing) that is pressed into the stern tube. It also has a pillow block carrier bearing supporting the shaft on it's way out of the transmission. I really don't want to get too much money into this boat and usually leave things more or less alone if they work okay.
Boat probably get better than one knot to the litter of fuel.
Tach runs off a censer hooked on an injection line, (Tiny Tach) you ever hear of them, they are really pretty neat and easy to install and not expensive.
 
>The engine doesn't have a place any longer for a thermostat and runs too cool. Think I will install a gate valve to restrict the flow if I choose so I can bring the temp up some.<

The usual remedy for this is called a bypass thermostat.

It measures the temp of the water returning to the engine and tempers the engine discharge with the returning keel cooler water to give what ever temp you require.

A bypass valve works but YOU gave to remember to adjust the valve opening with any major power change.

A push pull cable and a rotary valve (ball valve , recycled tapered seacock ) would make this adjustment from the helm easy.
 
manyboats said:
Tom,

Haha that shoes in quite easily dosn't it? Haha
I think the single engine thing is more of an dependant/independant or/and masculinity thing. Many view twin engine boating as a "hasn't got the balls to go out w/o a backup". He's "depending on his "spare"" to get home. And for all of us independant can do types we don't need no stink'in spare like all the pansys w twins. Or if it breaks I'm a man, know my mechanics and I'm smart enough to figure it out. No need to say "mommy mommy send help".
Click to expand...

Interesting take, I just wonder how many boat owners decide on their boat based on the number of engines, which is what your quote implies?

Back before there was even a Dauntless, when I knew nothing about nothing:eek: I started with a clean sheet of paper.

We ended up with the Krogen 42' as the best boat to live on and take us around the world. With that some all sorts of compromises. Everything else being equal, though it never is, I would have prefered two engines and two of everyting.

But then reality sets in. IS there even a boat with two engines as efficeint as the Krogen? Not really.

What about the engine room? How would I get around both engines in a 42' boat? Not well. then what are the consequences of that??:facepalm:

Etc. Lastly, I've read about every book I could get my hands on by cruisers crossing the oceans and more. Nothing stands out multiple versus single.

So one makes due. A positive for me, was having a keel to fully protect the running gear. Having run aground three times in the first year, I was thankful for that.:whistling:
 
We bought our trawler just last month. We decided a Selene 53 was the boat for us and available in the used market were both single screw and twins. We looked at both of them closely and decided against the twin for the usual reasons, in order of concern:

1. more likely to damage when aground
2. more maintenance cost (read more stuff to break)
3. higher fuel consumption

But also because most Selene 53's are singles, we thought a twin may be harder to re-sell someday being the odd one out there.

The boat we settled on (avatar pic) has a separate Yanmar "get home" engine.

Harry
 
No Mast said:
But also because most Selene 53's are singles, we thought a twin may be harder to re-sell someday being the odd one out there.
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Harry, having been in the ER on several Selenes including the 53, it seems to lack sufficient space for twins.

The two similar sized vessels that are really nice with twins are the N55 and KK52. In both these cases the get home was removed and the two mains downsized. Twin keels were included in the hull design.

Lots of good choices for singles, twins, get homes etc. There is no best way IMHO. It mostly comes down to one's wallet.
 
Wxx3 said:
Interesting take, I just wonder how many boat owners decide on their boat based on the number of engines, which is what your quote implies?
Click to expand...

We didn't base the purchase of our first cruising boat, the GB we have right now, on the number of engines. The GB we'd chartered had been a single with a bow thruster and it worked just fine for us.

As it turned out, the boat that met our requirements and cruising boat budget at the time is a twin. So we bought it, and now after 16 years I can tell you that if we decide to replace this boat for our PNW cruising, the number one item on the requirements list will be the number of engines. Any number less than 2 will be unacceptable.

There are a bunch of reasons for this which I'm not going to get into here; the single vs twin thing has been hashed over plenty in the past.

The Krogen 42 is one of our favorite boats in terms of its configuration and aesthetics, but today we would never buy one because it has only one main engine.

Of course, the long distance cruising mantra is that twins in the sizes of boats we're talking about here don't have the fuel efficiency needed for covering long distances without refueling. No arguement from me on that.

But the only long distance, open ocean cruising we're interested in doing is at Mach .85 at an altitude of some 40,000 feet above the swells. I grew up in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. I have no interest in sitting on a slow boat for weeks with nothing much to see or do waiting to get across something I've already spent years living in the middle of. So efficiency from a long distance endurance standpoint is not a priority to what we want out of cruising.

But I certainly don't discouage the long distance cruising urge in those who have a desire to try it.

So while I'm sure that the number of engines is not a first priority for very many boaters, there are some, like us, for whom it absolutely is, whether the requirement is to have just one or to have more than one.
 
Sunchaser,
I was really expecting to see engines and no room on the twin Selene. I was very surprised, actually. Between the engines being smaller themselves and some room gained by making the fuel tanks a bit smaller it was actually a very accessible engine room. I think that Selene carried about 900-1000 gallons compared to our 1400gal.

But as the hull was designed for a single screw, you had really no protection for the running gear as i recall.

And I agree with you there is no clear best one size fits all answer. it is most definitely a personal choice.

Harry
 
I plan to

I plan to travel up the outside of Vancouver Island this summer with no back up power. I will carry a 1000 or so feet of line suitable to extend the anchor line for a flatter lay in case of a break down in heavy weather and carry lots of extras,. I have filter bypass valves and am considering putting in a parallel separator and filter unit for quick switching
Tacomasailor said:
I do not want to start a single-vs-twin slanging match. I would just like to get information from LONG DISTANT – REMOTE CRUISING single engine trawler operators who DO NOT have any “get home” capability.

How many of you trawler guys head offshore more than 100 miles on trips of more than 500 miles with a single engine and no “get home” capability?

-or-

How many of you cruise in very remote areas, let’s say the closest diesel mechanic is more than 250 miles distant, with a single diesel and no get home capability?

I am a 40-year sailor who has done over 10,000 miles way off shore or in very remote areas. During that time I have experienced four (4) diesel engine shutdowns:

- two due to clogged fuel filters
- one due to broken fuel line
- one due to broken injector line

I’ve also had to shut down an engine when, in the middle of the night, we hit something that bent the strut that supports the prop shaft. We could turn the prop slowly to get into the dock but it was of no use to move the boat.

Each of the problems occurred in a different boat. Two of the shutdowns (filter & fuel line) occurred in serious seas where maintenance of steerage was critical to survival. A quickly unfurled headsail provided stability and some steerage, even in light winds and big seas.

In each case the problem was resolved within 20 minutes. Two of the engines did prove difficult to bleed and get the injectors working again and the sails were needed for over an hour.

We are now looking at 46 foot, or larger, trawlers. Most have a wing engine or a sailing rig (love those DDs) that would provide some ability to maintain steerage.

We have seen a number of very well respected trawlers that have a single engine and no “get home” capability. Given my experience, it is hard for me to understand how one heads off shore or into very remote areas with no alternative to the, admittedly rare, main propulsion failure.

SO – how many of you are cruising way out in the blue water or in very remote, i.e. no possibility of calling home for help, with only one engine and no backup?

I am not asking for opinions about single-vs-twin nor do I need to know about “get home” engines. I just want to know how many trawlers really go places with a single engine and no backup?

If you do not personally do offshore or remote cruising with one engine and no backup – do you know anyone who does?
Click to expand...
 
IMO the efficiency of a twin engine boat to a single of equal power has more to do w the boat and almost nothing to do w the number of engines.
Most of the boats here on TF that came in single or twin the same engine was used in both boats so the twin had/has twice as much power and twice as much cylinder displacement. Sure it's going to burn considerably more fuel. That's why numerous twin skippers try to run their boats w one engine shut down.
So w most here it isn't a matter of twin v/s single it's a matter of a 120hp boat and a 240hp boat.
 
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