To refit, or not to refit. That is the question

Marlinmike said:

Love the KK42, but if you are not a handi-guy and budget is tight I think this will put a lot of pressure on you and not in a good way. The service level (ICW) of the boat you outline in how you want to use it, you don't really need as robust of a boat like a KK, many other brands etc that would fit this bill and due to the market can be had for a reasonable price, just my 2 cents knocking around boats and I know what its like owning something I really couldn't afford, not fun.

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Well said.

Now, I looked at Gulliver three years ago. And while it was already priced well below the boat we ended up buying, it was TOO much of a project boat for me.

However, if you can buy it right, I'd certainly have a survey done.

An insurance survey is totally useless for a buyer. It only reports that the boat might not sink that week after a check list of items like float switches and bilge pumps are fixed. An insurance company wants to know that a $50 bilge pump works, not if it needs a $10,000 teak deck removal.
One of the brokers in my office at Rex Yachts around 10 years ago had a listing on a KK42 with twin engines, it might have been hull number 1 of the 42s. The concern with that boat was the cabin construction of fiberglass over plywood. When (not if) water gets into the plywood it can cause havoc.
It is much better to find a boat that someone else poured money into but now has to sell.

Personally, I would get the newest boat I could afford that has the main items I want. I refitted a 38' sail boat. It took me 5 years and I never finished. I had to sell the boat unfinished, therefore less money. I wont do that again. I would rather make a monthly payment and use the boat. Any boat will need TLC and/or upgrading. Unless your 30 yrs old and full of piss and vinegar, I would opt for spending the money up front. Just my opinion. I have seen successful refits and the owner was very proud, but very few.

Lots of good advice here already. To address this particular boat I will add that while the KK42 model is a very popular boat all are not equal. These boats were produced over a lot of years and significant changes to the materials and production methods. The early boats like this one have some features that make them more prone to serious wood rot possibilities. That teak deck on the bow can be covering a plywood "core" that is mush..... The other thing that makes me wary of this boat is that it has been on the market for a while. KK42s will sell quickly when priced right and in reasonable shape. The price isn't bad so..........

Wayfarer, if you do decide to go have a look, go armed with Marine Survey 101

I bought my boat about six months ago. There havent been any major surprises except an issue with the stern thruster. There were issues going into it that i knew would have to be addressed from the survey. My guestimate for the items on the survey were a little more time and money than i had initially figured, but i was not that far off. But there have been copius amounts of small issues slipped through the survey. I expect this is fairly common- a pump stops working, mysterious wiring issue with light, battery not charging properly, hard to find lighbulb blown, getting cables made up to hoist dinghy, fixing windshield wiper motors, and more. These little items have added up to an unexpected amount of time and money. Boat repairs arent that difficult but often require research (thank you TF), ordering online, phone calls to suppliers, waiting for deliveries, multiple trips to boat and back, etc.
A KK is a great boat, but like most boats, its only great if its in great shape.
If i were you, id be asking myself if i might be biting off more than i could chew (or want to chew) either in time, or money, or both. If you want to go boating, consider starting with a smaller boat in pristine shape that you are sure you can afford with the money you have. You can always sell and buy a bigger boat later if you find you love it. Save your time for boating, not working on your boat. Even a boat in great condition will require lots of your time and effort to maintain, never mind major projects.
Good luck!

KK is not the only brand of 40' ish boat out there.

It is also not the cheapest.

I'd bet if you looked at other brands you could find a very well maintained boat of about the same size within your budget.

As Blake said There is a couple that cruised the Bahamas, then took their 38' Bayliner over to Honduras.

The boat does not define the cruising ability (except for crossing oceans), the captain does.

>The concern with that boat was the cabin construction of fiberglass over plywood. When (not if) water gets into the plywood it can cause havoc.<

The horror of all TT boats.

Initial selling price does not lessen the problem as most are built the same.

bligh said:

Even a boat in great condition will require lots of your time and effort to maintain....

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Amen

I bought a "new" boat in September and have been gutting it ever since.
1st photo is the excess wire I pulled yesterday, this was my third day of pulling improper gauge, incorrect colour coded, improperly connected (owner always wondered why his battery would never charge from the alternator) and downright dangerous wiring.
2nd photo is a red conductor going to the negative bus bar.
3rd photo is a water pump breaker with conductors marked VHF
4th photo is crappy windows being removed (first 3 of 16).
Are you up to this ? it's my third time and these photos just scratch the surface.

$20K or so of the price of this Taiwanese built boat is due to the brand being a KK.

You can probably find a similar size CHB, Heritage East, Nova Heritage, Ocean Alexander, Present and others in better condition for less. They all will be 1980's boats and need some work but maybe not as much as this KK.

CPseudonym said:

And stop using the word investment when referring to a boat, unless you're a builder or broker it's not an investment. At least not a profitable one.

Wayfarer, you mentioned recouping part of your money in one of your above replies. Be advised you will not recoup any of it if you fail to complete it as you describe your house. Craigslist is full of incomplete projects.

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I never imagined that I would make anything like profit from it. Maybe I should have said that I hoped to minimize loss or possibly break even. I figure I've got a budget of around 150-160k to buy and/or refit. Hopefully I'd be able to negotiate the price a bit, but if not, 100k for the boat, and 50-60k for a refit. I'm sure that wouldn't have her back to factory fresh condition, but all the main systems would hopefully be working, and maybe an upgrade or two would be in place. At least at that point I'd be able to cruise her.

As far as my house goes. It's perfectly saleable. There are no incomplete projects laying around, but there are endless projects that I've got in mind, as I'm sure most homeowners have. My house is considerably better off now than it was when I bought it.

sunchaser said:

Bottom line as I see it, if you can't afford to lose the money you put into a boat, don't put it in.

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This is something I will definitely try to remember.

Marlinmike said:

The service level (ICW) of the boat you outline in how you want to use it, you don't really need as robust of a boat like a KK, many other brands etc that would fit this bill and due to the market can be had for a reasonable price.

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I've definitely been looking around and keeping my options open. I'm not by any means dead set on a KK. I'd love to have one, but not at the cost of my sanity or what's left of my hair.

Billyfeet said:

The other thing that makes me wary of this boat is that it has been on the market for a while. KK42s will sell quickly when priced right and in reasonable shape. The price isn't bad so..........

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Probably too good to be true.

ksanders said:

The boat does not define the cruising ability (except for crossing oceans), the captain does.

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Well said.

Thanks again for your input, everybody. At this point, I need more information about her condition before I make any kind of decision. I think she'll probably end up being more of a project than my wallet and I are up to, but I'll give her a look anyway.

I tend to be a hopeless optimist when it comes to things of this nature, so I'm glad you good folks are here to talk me back down out of the clouds.

Wayfarer said:

Thanks again for your input, everybody. At this point, I need more information about her condition before I make any kind of decision. I think she'll probably end up being more of a project than my wallet and I are up to, but I'll give her a look anyway.

I tend to be a hopeless optimist when it comes to things of this nature, so I'm glad you good folks are here to talk me back down out of the clouds.

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Wayfarer, you have just had a whole heap of sound cautionary advice dumped on you, rather like a cold shower - and every one was right - up to a point.

However...if I could refer you back to my post 23 on P2 of this thread, for a minute…I would have to say, I'm rather glad I actually bought my boat way before I ever joined any forum. Because if I had just received all that 'great' advice you just did back then, I probably would have been scared witless and run a mile, and not have bought my present boat, because she was a sort of 'project' boat. As it was, however, I bought her because I was able to afford her, pay cash, and not have to borrow. I'd therefore rather call her a 'labour of love' boat.

Why..? Because I've enjoyed (nearly) every minute of the time I have spent bring her back to being, well, really nice. I am now about to move on as family demands mean more travel, so she is on the market. But you know, if I'm honest, when she is sold, the thing I suspect I will almost miss most is driving off down to the marina 20 minutes away to 'do' something to her which would improve her.

I think in a way I enjoyed working on her as even/nearly more than cruising her. Well, maybe about equally…and if I hadn't bought her then, I might have fussed around for ages trying to find a better one I could afford, and I would have missed out on a whole heap of enjoyment, and so would the family…get what I'm saying..?

>Why..? Because I've enjoyed (nearly) every minute of the time I have spent bring her back to being, well, really nice.<

Any days spent messing about in boats is not deducted from the sum total of your life.

I looked at Gulliver FIVE years ago - the first of 7 KK42s I looked prior to purchasing my present KK42. All the systems need replacement starting w wiring and plumbing. It has been on the hard for >5 years so who knows about the engine. Many projects started and half finished w pieces lying all over. I think she is a 5-year near full time project, which didn't fit in my schedule.

Peter B said:

I would have to say, I'm rather glad I actually bought my boat way before I ever joined any forum. Because if I had just received all that 'great' advice you just did back then, I probably would have been scared witless and run a mile

But you know, if I'm honest, when she is sold, the thing I suspect I will almost miss most is driving off down to the marina 20 minutes away to 'do' something to her which would improve her.

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Yes it's been a little terrifying... haha. I've definitely second guessed myself several hundred times now.

I know what you mean about enjoying the work. A lot of the time I've spent on my boat has been tinkering. Most of the time I take her out with the intention of dropping the hook and relaxing for a bit, but I almost always end up opening the tool box. It's almost a compulsive need. I always feel like I should be doing something. It's always satisfying when you get to the end of the day, and you've accomplished a whole list of things. Very rewarding.

FF said:

>Why..? Because I've enjoyed (nearly) every minute of the time I have spent bring her back to being, well, really nice.<

Any days spent messing about in boats is not deducted from the sum total of your life.

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I'm gonna live forever!

GoldenDawn said:

I looked at Gulliver FIVE years ago - the first of 7 KK42s I looked prior to purchasing my present KK42. All the systems need replacement starting w wiring and plumbing. It has been on the hard for >5 years so who knows about the engine. Many projects started and half finished w pieces lying all over. I think she is a 5-year near full time project, which didn't fit in my schedule.

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Ugh... Gross. That's too much. I've only been looking for a few months, so I didn't realize that she's been on the market that long. Poor girl.

My sense is that the guy who buys a boat that has been refit usually makes out much better than the guy who did the refitting.

The guy who did the refitting got the satisfaction of doing the job, or perhaps went through the hell of a refit.

I think with boats you do better to buy the best boat you can afford rather than buy low and refit.

Greetings,
Mr. W. "...accomplished a whole list of things..." Hahahaha....Lies, all lies...

This also would have been an acceptable answer:

twistedtree said:

My sense is that the guy who buys a boat that has been refit usually makes out much better than the guy who did the refitting.

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In our case we paid less than 20 cents on the dollar for a high standard refit boat. And that was full asking price as the boat was for sale about 1 year when we bought. PO started out asking 60 cents on the dollar. Yes I've seen and confirmed his receipts for expenses, they where quite breath taking for a 27' boat.

Wayfarer said:

As far as the teak goes, is it fairly obvious when it's gone bad? I assume it goes soft and rots like any other wood, right?

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Two answer this question that you posed some time ago, no, teak decks don't go soft and rot. What they do is get so thin from sanding, the use of chemical teak cleaners and restorers, and weathering that there is simply not enough wood left to hold a seam or deck plugs properly. When this happens, moisture can easily get down under the planks and from there migrate down along the plank screws into the wood core of the fiberglass subdeck.

At that point, dry rot can get a toehold on the subdeck core, particularly if the water getting in is fresh (rain, etc.). This is a potentially expensive and time-consuming thing to repair properly.

A teak deck can also have some or all of its seams fail, by which I mean have the seam sealant pull away from one side of the groove or the other, or both sides and perhaps come out of the groove altogether.

If this has happened but the wood itself is still thick enough to be servicealbe, the deck can be re-grooved and reseamed. Big job but not rocket science to do it.

Teak can also dry out over time and split or crack.

But the biggest killer of teak decks is owners "maintaining" it improperly.