To refit, or not to refit. That is the question

I've been window shopping for a 40ish foot live aboard trawler for some months now, and I keep coming back to the KK42. It's got everything I'm looking for. A separate, raised pilothouse, walk around side decks, covered cockpit, full displacement, efficiency and long range, and a nice cozy, livable interior.

At this point I'm still trying to work out what my budget will be, but I can say for sure that most of the 42s on the market are out of my price range.

I've passed over this one a few times, assuming the price was too good to be true. She looks a little rough to me, and even in the best light she's 31 years old, but I'm no surveyor.

Anyone interested in putting their two cents in? What do you see that needs refurbishment or replacement? How crazy would I be to get into a project like this?

Wayfarer

looks like it would be a fun project

It looks very original and someone has already been doing some work on it. It would not be unusual for someone to start, have a change of plans then stop. You have to go look to be sure. John Gear at KK could tell you if it is cored or not. My list of main concerns that would drive the price I would offer are as follows:

1. If it is a cored hull is it blistered and how badly or has it already been repaired?
2. What is the condition of the teak on the decks? Serviceable or needing immediate removal and what is condition of deck cores?
3. Engine hours are moderate is it basically good?
4. It is an all electric boat so AC generator needs to be good or replaced.
5. Can it be made to look good without a paint job?
6. Budget replacing everything that has a moving part and the other goodies you want and factor that into the equaton.
7. Fuel tanks condition?

My impression from the pictures and relativey low hours is that it has spent a lot of time sitting around. You will basically be starting from scratch on almost everything aboard. If you want a fresh start and will enjoy doing it budget what it takes to get it the way you want it and make an offer that doesn't leave you hanging by your ankles in the end.

WF, I spent several years rebuilding a Chris Craft 280 Catalina. When I finished I had a boat that was too small for my intended purpose and was at the low end of the quality/desirability curve. I spent $30K on equipment/systems for a boat that was never going to be worth much more than half that. (I just sold it) The KK has great bones so unlike the CC a refit will provide a higher value overall. But we don't rebuild/refit to resell we do it to cruise.

After 31 years all the systems are suspect. The listing indicates that a 2012 survey is available. A complete survey, not an insurance survey, will describe condition but will also provide a punch list of suspected systems and upgrades needed. Example, the wiring is functional but shows signs of breaking down at the terminal ends, pumps work but will need to replaced soon, etc. Do you have the skillsets to address the issues which need to be corrected? Get a copy of the survey and determine if the project is within the realm of possibilities. How long has the boat been on the market? More than likely the 2012 survey is from an offer a buyer that walked away from the deal. Any boat can be brought back to satisfactory condition, all it takes is money but you don't want to burn through your cruising kitty getting it ready only to have to let it languish at the dock while you replenish your bank account.

Look at the survey and determine if you need to visit the boat.

Don
"Steelydon"

There is nothing more expensive than a cheap boat.

Refits are very expensive if you do it right. When one guy saw my ER his reaction was "you have got 20 years here". It sums it up perfectly. Meaning all I will need to do for that time is routine maintenance. But it cost an enormous amount. I am delighted with my boat. Would I have done a yard refit had I known the final cost? In all honesty no.

If you do the refit yourself it will still be expensive: materials will be the same but it will cost you a lot, no make that huge, amount of time. Fine if you enjoy the process. But there comes a point in life when you think about just how much time you have left in good health. At that point, once you are sure it is what you want, then spending to get it done quickly - about a year - is worth it.

The best one for you to buy will have had several owners who have each updated/upgraded a few things. I dont know the KK 42's but almost certainly the cheapest one in the long run will likely be towards the upper end of those on the market. If you can't wrangle your budget that far then best to find an alternative vessel that meets most of your needs. There will be some, but I cant point you towards them at present.

WF, I have looked at that boat a few times on YW myself and have had some of your same thoughts but I made a hard core decision to keep the boat I have and continue throwing money and hard labor at it . Ours needed pretty much a total refit when we purchased .We have always done our own work because we like doing the work and always short on boat bucks , but it's not for everybody We have been working on William over two years but we have been able to use the boat during the season . Being able to use the boat while working was a must for us . I refitted a 32 ft sailboat several years ago in my backyard and seven years later we put it back in the water . I never want to do that again. I almost lost interest in boating all together .
I like the boat your looking at and would love to own one someday . I think the price has dropped a few times since listed . I'm not sure I have another refit left in me. It doesn't look like anyone has butcherd anything up. Foe me I would have to do what it needed to get it back in the water so I could at least enjoy it some while working on it and it sounds like from your budget like me you will be doing most of the work . It looks like a good one to start with but get ready to roll up your sleeves and open your wallet . I hope someone gets it soon it needs a good home .

If the boat has no basic problems , blown engine , hull blisters refitting is a great way to get YOUR boat. YOUR WAY

The number of individual choices that create YOUR WAY only requires time to learn what your desirements are.

All boats are a compromise , which you choose will get you the best boat for your personal use.

The hull and tankage have limits , the scantlings of the build have limits, your skills have limits , observe the limits and enjoy!!

Living in a partially finished boat is one requirement.

I bought the best KK I could find at a number I could afford, but I started with a good bottom, good engine, solid tankage and everything electrical working. It turned out to be in a lot better condition than I hoped, but it's still a boat. The pricing for KK's seem to be drifting up again, after they flat-lined in the recession. That means that a good, refit 42 is a more desirable boat with a higher price tag. If you do your own work and the boat has good bones to begin with, and, as you say, it has everything you want, go for it.

Be aware that this boat may have already broken the heart of someone who felt just like you do when they bought it. It can be overwhelming in work and $$$. Try to stay rational and focused on your evaluation. Boats are emotional things just as dreams are. Good luck and stay in touch.

I have been through a very expensive boat refit myself.

Unless you have literally the thousands of hours, and the skills necessary to do all the work yourself then you are not going to come out ahead.

A KK42 at that price point sounds like a bargain, and it probably is a bargain, if you do not factor in labor.

Once you start a refit, if you are paying a shipyard to do the work, you can make a hundred thousand dollars disappear very quickly. Actually, and I have personal knowledge of this You can make a heck of allot more than that disappear.

The up side is just like posted above. I have my boat my way. I also, like Brian posted above bought a 20 year time period in my refit. This will cover most of my retirement years making for few surprises.

FF said:

If the boat has no basic problems , blown engine , hull blisters refitting is a great way to get YOUR boat. YOUR WAY

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Well stated! The cost of my trawler's refit was slightly over what I paid for her. I was willing to spend the money and time because (1) there were very few new boats on the market that were comparable (e.g., full displacement, under 26', low HP diesel engine, etc.) (2) I had very specific wants/needs (3) I planned to keep her for many years and (4) Sherpa was not an investment purchase. I now have a boat that is in like-new condition that my wife and I very, very much enjoy--it was well worth the expense and I would do it over again!

Some of us are carpenters, some electricians, some mechanics, some plumbers, some painters, some engineers, some scholars and some of us are none of the above. To refit a boat, you need to be a jack of all trades and a darn good one at that. You also need to be goal oriented and have plenty of free time on your hands. Rarely is there immediate gratification and sometimes it takes many years to get the refit finished. There are other elements involved like good health, supportive family, stable employment/income and plain old fashioned luck. If you don't have those skill sets and disposition, pass on the project boat.

Wayfarer, you mention that you're looking for a "liveaboard"... will you be a full-time cruiser or tied to the dock? It makes a difference in where you spend your budget -- creature comforts or systems reliability. With a LOA of 42' you can't beat the KK 42 for spacious digs. Another popular live aboard cruiser is the Roughwater 42. On the west coast they can be found in good condition for well under $100K. Good luck.

Only to repeat what was brought up by bglad in an earlier post, beware a saturated hull. This can be a older Kk42 issue and is not an easy or cheap fix.

bglad said:

1. If it is a cored hull is it blistered and how badly or has it already been repaired?
2. What is the condition of the teak on the decks? Serviceable or needing immediate removal and what is condition of deck cores?
3. Engine hours are moderate is it basically good?
4. It is an all electric boat so AC generator needs to be good or replaced.
5. Can it be made to look good without a paint job?
6. Budget replacing everything that has a moving part and the other goodies you want and factor that into the equaton.
7. Fuel tanks condition?

My impression from the pictures and relativey low hours is that it has spent a lot of time sitting around.

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I'm pretty certain that it's a cored hull. I believe they were cored throughout the 80's. The survey was conducted while she was in the water, so no bottom information was available. There was mention of a 'small soft spot' in the deck all the way forward, near the windlass. I've turned down boats for similar issues before.
As far as the teak goes, is it fairly obvious when it's gone bad? I assume it goes soft and rots like any other wood, right?
The survey didn't include any engine assessment, so I don't know about that. The report made it sound like the generator was in 'good shape' but the pictures make me doubt that. I'd plan on replacing it.

I think you're right about her sitting around a lot.

steelydon said:

When I finished I had a boat that was too small for my intended purpose and was at the low end of the quality/desirability curve. The KK has great bones so unlike the CC a refit will provide a higher value overall. But we don't rebuild/refit to resell we do it to cruise.

After 31 years all the systems are suspect. The listing indicates that a 2012 survey is available. A complete survey, not an insurance survey, will describe condition but will also provide a punch list of suspected systems and upgrades needed. Do you have the skillsets to address the issues which need to be corrected?

Don
"Steelydon"

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As far as the boat suiting my intended purpose, I think it will. It's plenty big enough for just me, and hopefully at some point, a partner.

As far as her resale value, I know I'll never make a profit, but if I can get her into shape, I might be able to recoup a pretty decent percentage of my investment if I ever need to sell. I get the impression that these boats hold their value better than others, and most of the depreciation has already been eaten by previous owners.

The survey was only an 'insurance survey,' so it didn't really cover very much. I get the feeling that a lot of things were missed or sugar coated. I may pay her a visit in a few weeks, and have a look for myself.

Insequent said:

There is nothing more expensive than a cheap boat.

Refits are very expensive if you do it right. Would I have done a yard refit had I known the final cost? In all honesty no.

If you do the refit yourself it will still be expensive: materials will be the same but it will cost you a lot, no make that huge, amount of time. Fine if you enjoy the process. But there comes a point in life when you think about just how much time you have left in good health. At that point, once you are sure it is what you want, then spending to get it done quickly - about a year - is worth it.

Almost certainly the cheapest one in the long run will likely be towards the upper end of those on the market. If you can't wrangle your budget that far then best to find an alternative vessel that meets most of your needs.

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I'm not the handiest guy in the world. I've learned a lot in my current boat, but I am by no means an expert. Sometimes I like fixing things up, sometimes I'd rather be at the dentist.
There are many parts of the job that I could probably do myself, and there are some that are just too much. I'd have to have a yard replace the generator if need be. I'd hire someone to install a thruster.
As far as refitting the forward head, I think I could do that. I think I could install a windlass, and probably an AC system.

As far as time goes, hopefully I've got a good amount left. I'm 30, and reasonably healthy, if a bit fat. My schedule is conducive to this sort of thing. I usually work for a month, and then have 2 weeks off, and 2-3 months off in the winter. So I could devote a good amount of time to a project like this. I'm sure it will take twice as long as I anticipate. My projects usually do.

I'm still looking around at other boats, and I may very well end up with something more modest. This is definitely at the ambitious end of the scale.

Pack Mule said:

Being able to use the boat while working was a must for us.
It doesn't look like anyone has butchered anything up. For me I would have to do what it needed to get it back in the water so I could at least enjoy it some while working on it and it sounds like from your budget like me you will be doing most of the work . It looks like a good one to start with but get ready to roll up your sleeves and open your wallet . I hope someone gets it soon it needs a good home .

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She does need a good home, and so do I! I would want to do whatever was necessary to get her up and running as soon as possible. Things like AC and refitting the second head would definitely wait until things like the hull, decks, engine and generator had been taken care of. I'd definitely want to be able to do some light cruising while I was still working on her. If I wait until she's 'finished,' I'll never leave!

FF said:

If the boat has no basic problems , blown engine , hull blisters refitting is a great way to get YOUR boat. YOUR WAY

Living in a partially finished boat is one requirement.

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Having her fit out the way I want is hugely appealing.

I've been living in a partially finished house for several years now I'm not sure the idea of 'finished' is anything more than some abstract concept, thought up by Buddhist monks anyway.

healhustler said:

Be aware that this boat may have already broken the heart of someone who felt just like you do when they bought it. It can be overwhelming in work and $$$. Try to stay rational and focused on your evaluation. Boats are emotional things just as dreams are. Good luck and stay in touch.

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Very good advice. I get excited pretty easily with things like this, and I tend to be impulsive. Must remember to stay calm

WF-if it is not too far out of the way for a visit, I think it would definitely be worth a short trip. Several here have in the past posted links to various survey checklists that you can use to do a rough assessment on your own. If it passes that first look, it might well be worth the $750-1000 it may take to get a pretty good survey done. You can even pay a bit less and have a surveyor do a quickie just to help with the evaluation before a full blown survey. That is really the only way you can make a rational (well, on a boat, semi-rational at best!) value judgment. As several have noted, with good bones to start with, you could end up with your boat.

nwboater said:

Wayfarer, you mention that you're looking for a "liveaboard"... will you be a full-time cruiser or tied to the dock? It makes a difference in where you spend your budget -- creature comforts or systems reliability. With a LOA of 42' you can't beat the KK 42 for spacious digs.

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As of right now, I'm thinking of following a seasonal migration. All of my family is in the central NY area, so I'd probably spend a good chunk of the spring and summer in or around the Finger Lakes and Canals of NY. I'd like to spend a bunch of time in the St. Lawrence as well. When fall starts, I'm thinking of working my way down the coast at a leisurely pace, and finding somewhere warm to cruise in FL or the Caribbean.

At some point, I'd like to make the trip through the Panama Canal and over to the west coast.

So I guess the answer is that I'd prefer to cruise. Maybe not full time, but as often as possible. I'd focus first on making any upgrades or repairs to systems that I'd need for cruising first, then any extra creature comforts as time and money allow.

Thank you everybody for the replies. I really appreciate your insights. This whole idea of selling out and moving aboard is very exciting, but it also seems like a big gamble. I honestly don't know If I can afford to do it. My heart says go for it, you only live once, but my wallet wants me to move back in with my parents. Sometimes I think I'm crazy for dreaming about doing something like this. Other times I think I might be crazy not to.

I think I'm going to go look at her. It doesn't hurt to look, right!?

WAYFARER, as someone who has done a fairly extensive refit of my boat, I think that boat is certainly worth a serious look. It looks like it have been reasonably well-maintained. The fit and finish is not too bad. How extensive the re-fit needs to be is very much a personal value issue. I learnt early to be willing to accept imperfection as long as everything looked ok, worked, and was safe. Purely cosmetic stuff is not that expensive or hard to do yourself. Having everything in the way of finishings and furnishings new is all very well, looks nice - feels nice, but is it necessary..?

When we bought our boat, our initial reaction was in certain cases…for example the squab/seating covering material..."ok, well that'll have to go"…same for the hot water cylinder, "that looks really crappy, that'll have to go". Well, it did - eventually - but only 6 years on, because it still worked. The upholstery is still the same. We got used to it. It all depends how fussy you are. As I just said recently in another post on another thread, where I got 12 yrs out of a pump impeller.."if it ain't broke, don't fix it." You can save a heap that way..and if you don't plan to cross oceans...

Definitely go and look. I think it might be doable. Interior looks nice enough to stay aboard while you work.

Wayfarer said:

Thank you everybody for the replies. I really appreciate your insights. This whole idea of selling out and moving aboard is very exciting, but it also seems like a big gamble. I honestly don't know If I can afford to do it. My heart says go for it, you only live once, but my wallet wants me to move back in with my parents. Sometimes I think I'm crazy for dreaming about doing something like this. Other times I think I might be crazy not to.

I think I'm going to go look at her. It doesn't hurt to look, right!?

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Do you want to actually go boating or spend decades not boating? I've watched boatyards full of skinny young long haired enthusiastic dreamers turn into old fat bald guys working on their dream boats and die before ever splashing them. Riverbend and Summerfields in Ft. Lauderdale used to be a great place to watch dreams die. Now you can go to Indiantown, Stuart and North Ft. Pierce to see the same.
If it's the former you should just buy a smaller good boat that fits your purchase budget and go cruising before you run out of time. There's a couple cruising a Bayliner 38 down in Central America. I sold a guy a gorgeous Wellcraft Portifino (3208s)sight unseen off of Ebay for fifty something thousand and he ran it from Miami to Curacao during hurricane season with no problem. Was it a "passagemaker"? No, it was an express. Did it make passage? Hell yeah.

If it's a project your after, then do a classic car as it will be worth more when your finished.
Marinas in Colombia, Venezuela, Mexico, and Central America are full of boats that came there on their bottoms, and very few are "passagemakers".
It's not the boat that makes the difference, looking for 'the right one' is the excuse that stops most people from ever going. You can do the loop in a gas powered cruiser if you want, and with one of those you can go against the current in clockwise direction if you like. Yeah gas cost more to burn than diesel, but most modern cheap cruisers cruise over 30 mph. Again-which is worth more-TIME or money?

BTW- most project boats can be had for free, or you can get the owners to pay you to take them away. The whole idea of paying for one is ludicrous unless it has scrap value, and you had better have the ways and means of scrapping her. Should you even take one for free? Hell No!

pilothouse king said:

Do you want to actually go boating or spend decades not...

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Blake's first line is where the rubber meets the road.

What's your hobby?

And stop using the word investment when referring to a boat, unless you're a builder or broker it's not an investment. At least not a profitable one.

Wayfarer, you mentioned recouping part of your money in one of your above replies. Be advised you will not recoup any of it if you fail to complete it as you describe your house. Craigslist is full of incomplete projects.

CPseudonym said:

Blake's first line is where the rubber meets the road.

What's your hobby?

And stop using the word investment when referring to a boat, unless you're a builder or broker it's not an investment. At least not a profitable one.

Wayfarer, you mentioned recouping part of your money in one of your above replies. Be advised you will not recoup any of it if you fail to complete it as you describe your house. Craigslist is full of incomplete projects.

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Yes, Blake and Craig have nailed it. Buying a larger vessel like a KK 42 is not a task for the faint hearted or under financed. Bottom line as I see it, if you can't afford to lose the money you put into a boat, don't put it in.

sunchaser said:

Bottom line as I see it, if you can't afford to lose the money you put into a boat, don't put it in.

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That is exactly the way we viewed it when we bought our 30 year old Taiwanese Tub Classic.

Love the KK42, but if you are not a handi-guy and budget is tight I think this will put a lot of pressure on you and not in a good way. The service level (ICW) of the boat you outline in how you want to use it, you don't really need as robust of a boat like a KK, many other brands etc that would fit this bill and due to the market can be had for a reasonable price, just my 2 cents knocking around boats and I know what its like owning something I really couldn't afford, not fun.