Is a Sedan/Europa a Good Option?

Ahoy all you Europa/sedan owners and antagonists. I believe I want a Europa/Sedan trawler w/ flybridge, 36-40 feet so that I can easily single hand. I like the backing visibility from the lower helm, access to the side deck and cockpit, and room for friends on day sails. 2 cabins, main w/ centerline berth, single head and a generator that handles all power needs on board. I enjoy ocean cruising but I am not looking for a passage maker. I would like a boat that would go up to 12+ knots but would cruise 7-8 @ 4gph not including the genset. No teak decks and fishing is not a consideration. Single or dual if it meets performance expectations at the stated fuel burn. 4’ maximum draft. The boat has to be turn-key, projects are in my rear view mirror. I would like to spend $25K but the budget is $200K MAX. Looking to cruise the Chesapeake to the Keys, maybe the Exumas.


Am I looking for the right boat style? What are your suggestions on the mfg/model . What are the must haves compared to the want to haves? What else do I need to consider?


Thanks,
"Steelydon"
Don

Lot of boats meet your stated cruising requirements. All an Europa does is eliminate the rear cabin. Buy a boat. You can never have too many boats.

I am down to 3 right now. I spent several years rebuilding a 280 Chris Craft Catalina only to realize it was going to be too small for cruising. Sold it last week so its time to get the fleet back up to full strength.

Steelydon

What I don't like about Europa's if single handling, is the trip down the ladder when up on the flying bridge and you are in a rush to get down.

Some have stairs to the bridge so that does make some models tempting.

Europa's have nice layouts IMHO and should meet most your needs. They seem to be a fairly popular style of trawler. You might want to look at a Grand Banks 36 Europa.

Extremely biased viewpoint.

Check out a pilgrim. Great single handed cruiser.

All boats have pluses and minuses.

It good to hear from others and know all of them, then make up your mind of how you will cruise, crew the boat, and sit back and enjoy her.

Many people name a bunch of things that just aren't true, so you really have to sort through a lot of opinions if you never cruised or lived on a certain kind of boat.

The GB is a budget buster. For docking I would plan to be at the lower station with access to the rail for docking. No rush from FB to deck. I am trying to avoid sundecks due to cockpit access for docking. The DC models seem to limit salon size. What else am I missing here?

Trying to be objective.
If you go sedan/Europa make sure the cockpit is deep enough for entertaining. The inside sitting and cooking and refrig facilities work well with the outside, all on one level and close by. Our Europa has(not fitted in pic) "breeze" covers around the cockpit with clears cutoffs (on zips) at the 2 aft corners of the house, giving some protection outside even in rain.
Good luck with your search.

Aft cabin with cockpit. The OA 42-44 and the similar Tollycraft 44 are within your budget. A bit of an update on the Taiwan Trawler look, but the same, maybe better bones.

Greetings,
Mr. steely. "What else am I missing here?" Well, it's saloon for starters...
We've had both a DC and a Sedan. As mentioned, with a DC you loose saloon space and with our current cruising style we prefer the larger living area for entertaining. Deck overhang protects the side windows somewhat from both sun and rain.

See that beast in my avatar? I'm a klutz, dyslexic and ADD. I have single handed that thing pretty easily. To me the secret is full walk around side decks, a door on each side of the helm and good visibility. If no one is on the dock to catch a line for you, you set a spring line and a rear quarter breast line and engine and helm keeps you to the dock. Toss the stern line to the dock, climb down the side ladder right by the helm and you're in. Takes some basic rodeo skills, but that is just a matter of practice, practice, practice.

So try out a few boats, maybe a few charters. Lacking that get on a few and walk yourself through the drills. As always, the smallest boat you can be comfortable in is the best choice.

steelydon said:

The GB is a budget buster. For docking I would plan to be at the lower station with access to the rail for docking. No rush from FB to deck. I am trying to avoid sundecks due to cockpit access for docking. The DC models seem to limit salon size. What else am I missing here?

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Depends, I think my saloon is bigger than those of a 40 Europa style as my galley is down. But so many different models...so many maybes.
Maybe the view from the lower station has good enough visibility for single handed docking, maybe not as I have seen in some models...then again there are plenty of boats without good visibility from either station.

Give some thought to the flying bridge. Seems inconsistent with single handed docking, whereas a pilot house boat with side doors, perhaps a Nordic Tug, or a Europa style GB controlled from the lower helm (again with a side door) would work.

For the PNW's rainy, windy weather a Europa has some real advantages. Since it can be enclosed and heated, it allows one to be outside without being outside.

The big disadvantage in the smaller ones (36') is that there is usually just one stateroom and head. Guests have to stay in the main cabin, which means the berth has to be made up at night and stowed away in the morning.

Were we in the market for a Grand Banks today, my wife and I would be very tempted to get a Europa. However, we would probably get a 42' or 46' so we could have a second stateroom up forward for guests.

Our 36' GB Classic (tri-cabin) works great with guests because they and we have our own cabins and heads separated by the neutral ground of the main cabin. What we don't have is that great covered aft deck where we could sit outside but out of the rain.

And I agree with Marty above. Both my wife and I believe that the very best configuration for a cruising boat is a pilothouse boat like the Krogen 42, Fleming 55, and de Fever 46. You get an elevated helm out of the weather and that great covered aft deck. And you can still have a flying bridge if you like driving from one.

As others have said, every boat is a compromise.

We have an ocean Alexander Europa and I really like the layout of the boat and the comfort inside and outside. As previously stated the visibility to the stern is really good from the main helm and to be able to walk out to a covered aft deck is really nice.
Having had a standard GB 36 tri cabin I really prefer the Europa.

Hollywood

I have a sedan and love it for all the reasons you state. The area lost in the galley up salon with side decks is made up in the cockpit space. There's an intimacy with the water from a cockpit not similarly experienced in a sundeck model. For me, one unexpected advantage for the FB is extra storage. I don't drive much from there.

I would not overlook the Nordic Tug 37 or NT42 for a boat with the layout and features you want, good single-handing access but the 12 Kts may be a problem.

steelydon said:

Ahoy all you Europa/sedan owners and antagonists. I believe I want a Europa/Sedan trawler w/ flybridge, 36-40 feet so that I can easily single hand. I like the backing visibility from the lower helm, access to the side deck and cockpit, and room for friends on day sails.
Am I looking for the right boat style? Thanks,
"Steelydon"
Don

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Indupitably yes - unless you plan on taking non-close-family type 'others' (and not many do) away on lots of sleep-overs and want the privacy of totally separated sleeping quarters, there is no real argumment for not having a Europa type lay-out. (IMHO) Maybe a sundeck type if you can go larger, (sort of has both) but there is that height up from the dock then. I can single hand mine easily, using tactics as suggested by caltexflank.

FlyWright said:

There's an intimacy with the water from a cockpit not similarly experienced in a sundeck model.

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In our boating area, intimacy with the water often equates to intimacy with swarming bugs. The additional elevation with a sundeck helps mitigate the issue. It's also up in the breeze that typically gets blocked by adjacent hulls (in the marina). And finally, the sightlines are over adjacent boats, so it feels much less confining than a low cockpit when "parked in" by other boats. And if we want to hang out at water level, we can move to the cockpit (sundeck with cockpit)...but we never do. That said, I do admire the exterior appearance of sedans and Europas. The OA Europa is exactly right to my eye.

skidgear said:

The OA Europa is exactly right to my eye.

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Following in the footsteps of Mark....


I couldn't agree more

HOLLYWOOD

If GB is out of budget try Mainship, pretty impressive package for the price, friend has a 34 flybridge and boy that's a lot of boat.

Since I anchor a lot I want an aft cabin to avoid wave slap. Avoid ladders, interior stairs may be ok, forget fly bridge. Remember you may have to move around the boat in a seaway.
IMO 12 Knots would not put most boats you describe solidly on plane.

For those that owned or once owned a trunk style aft cabin, how is docking from the lower helm, not sure do you just look out the side door and use one pole as reference, or can you see aft or going to the flybridge a must?
Sorry for steering original thread, but figured it might also be informative to OP.

Marlinmike said:

For those that owned or once owned a trunk style aft cabin, how is docking from the lower helm, ...

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We operate our boat only from the lower helm. We never drive from the flying bridge anymore for several reasons.

But even when we did, we would dock from the lower helm. We both find we can judge our boat's position better from down below than from up above, which may seem counterintuitive because of the wider view from up top. But we both feel very disconnected from the boat when we're on the flying bridge.

So even though we can't see the stern or the port quarter from the lower helm, and our view out the starboard aft window of the main cabin is largely blocked by the sailing dinghy we carry on the aft cabin top, we can sense exactly where the boat is from what we do see. So we are both very comfortable docking and maneuvering in tight quarters from down below.

Interestingly, we have a slip neighber who has a tri-cabin cruiser similar in layout to our GB. He likes to drive from the flying bridge and does so whenever the weather permits. But a year or so ago i noticed that when he comes back to his slip, when the boat is still in the fairway he comes down from the flying bridge and performs the docking itself from the lower helm.

So I asked him about this, and he said that he finds that he can judge the exact position and movements of his boat better from down below than from up above.

A big advantage in our view to docking from the lower helm is immediate access to the main deck should the other person need a hand with lines because of wind or current or whatever.

To both of us, driving from down below is just like driving a vehcile. Even though one can't see the front of the car, or the sides, or the rear, one learns to judge where they are from what they do see, and pretty soon they can drive down a narrow street at speed with cars parked on each side while looking straight ahead.

A good friend who we boat with a lot has a lobsterboat. While it has a rudimentary flying bridge, he almost always dfrives from the lower helm. And even though his boat has no aft cabin, his visibllity aft is restricted by the size of the two windowsin the aft bulkhead and door of the main cabin. And he has no problems at all judging his maneuvers from the helm seat on the starboard side of the boat.

I'm certainly not suggesting that docking from down below is better than from up above. It is for us, our lobsterboat friend, and apparently our dock neighbor, but every boater should operate from the position they are most comfortable and confident in. There is no right or wrong, only what works best.

But in our experience, docking a tri-cabin boat from the lower helm is very easy.

I look out the back windows. If docking starboard side to I can just look out the door with a great view just like most boats. If port to, which hardly anybody but me seems to do....it's trickier but with practice you have a sense where things are and only is a rush or an emergency prevents me from walking over to the port salon door and taking a peek.


I have started docking from the flying bridge more, even in cold weather as my deckhand prefers to see and hear me better when on the bridge. This year we are trying headsets and my son got me a wireless camera so who knows where I may feel best at.

For about 15 grand you can get a Yachtender remote wireless control system and dock from anywhere on the boat or even from a couple hundred feet down the dock. No worries about visibility just walk to where you see what is important during that stage of docking or undocking. You can pull your stern in and step off with dock lines tie up take your time then walk on dock to the bow and pull it in with the thruster grab a line and tie up. Always under control. If you have crew you can tell them to hide below when docking and look real cool.

>I look out the back windows.<

For a couple of bucks we installed a car rear view mirror.

When lounging in the PH ,,putting along in the ditch with the AP steering,,

it stops the Surprise of another fish killer making another unskilled pass.

I knew you folks would give me a lot to think about and so far you have not run me away from the Europa style. The problem is going to be finding a fairly new (1995+) one in my price range. I will probably look at the 38 Mariner Orient in Annapolis and was planning to look at the 40 as well but it is under contract. The 38 seems overpriced at $157K and the broker has indicated there is not much room for negotiation. The 39 Island Gypsy in RI is appealing but the forward cabin sports a V berth. Anyone out there have one they are ready to sell?

Don

I don't know why people focus so much on age. Once out of warranty how it was maintained is far more important. Buy an older boat from a fastidious owner and spend what you save on upgrades you want.

bayview said:

I don't know why people focus so much on age. Once out of warranty how it was maintained is far more important. Buy an older boat from a fastidious owner and spend what you save on upgrades you want.

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I agree. I missed seeing my current boat in my YachtWorld searches because I had set an arbitrary year of 1980 as the oldest I'd consider. Never saw the 1977 turnkey Californian with new interior and many updates/upgrades until the broker mentioned it as a possibility. When I saw her, I knew she was the right boat for us.

I got a great boat for the money and when I sell, the next lucky owner will get an even greater boat.