"The Ideal Passagemaker"

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FF said:
I have long thought the ideal distance cruiser is a ticket and a boat that can be shipped inside a Sea Land 40 ft cargo box.
With the world economy tottering , shipping a box is CHEAP!!
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Well, then I guess the ultimate Passagemaker would look something like this.
 

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healhustler said:
Well, then I guess the ultimate Passagemaker would look something like this.
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Yikes! Yacht design by commitee, overseen by a board, all with an eye on maximizing profit and keeping heartless, uncaring shareholders happy :peace:

Here's one of Buehler's that Eric would lust over...a tad large at 71 feet, but look at that ass end!!!

Ellemaid page 9 the Launch
 

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MurrayM said:
Yikes! Yacht design by commitee, overseen by a board, all with an eye on maximizing profit and keeping heartless, uncaring shareholders happy :peace:

Here's one of Buehler's that Eric would lust over...a tad large at 71 feet, but look at that ass end!!!

Ellemaid page 9 the Launch
Click to expand...

Probably fuel efficient but what about the cost of changing all those zincs? Look at launch pictures and count zincs on one side then multiply by two. My divers would probably charge several hundred to change those out and hauling a boat like that cant be cheap. I think George lost a fair amount his efficiency with the zincs.
 
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Would not the ideal passagemaker be a long, narrow and low lying boat much like a 60 foot ocean going sailboat without a mast. The smaller the deck house would be the better for heavy weather. Small windows, think portholes, so that they are not caved in by the waves, and perhaps paravanes for stabilization.

The compromises needed for the ideal passagemaker would narrow the market to just someone interested in the boat only because of the passage making ability.

I keep envisioning a sailboat and then I wonder why not use a sailboat.
 
Marty
You have pretty much described what Steve Dashew was thinking when he designed his FPB's. Except that he used active fin stabilizers instead of paravanes. But he then loaded up the boat with complex systems, with backups of most stuff, and as a result ended up with something rather high-end in terms of cost. The boats work quite well for their intended purpose although they have a few cons for many people.
 
Yeah, like being butt ugly, but like my Super Sarca, agricultural, but business-like.
 
Bay Pelican said:
Would not the ideal passagemaker be a long, narrow and low lying boat much like a 60 foot ocean going sailboat without a mast. The smaller the deck house would be the better for heavy weather. Small windows, think portholes, so that they are not caved in by the waves, and perhaps paravanes for stabilization.

The compromises needed for the ideal passagemaker would narrow the market to just someone interested in the boat only because of the passage making ability.

I keep envisioning a sailboat and then I wonder why not use a sailboat.
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Well the few times I posted the conclusion on motor boat oriented sites, that the modern light well powered sailboat is a much better long distance boat than a motor vessel I got jumped big time. Yes I agree that the attempt to make more ocean friendly power boats such as long lean and low is taking a page from sail boat design. There is one little thing that throws a wrench in the process and that to me is the roll. A mast with sail even while motor sailing is much more comfortable than a narrow boat without stabilization. Of course one can add all types of mechanical stabilization, but I say why ,when the sail rig will do it and also provide excellent long distance axillary propulsion. The fact that there are probably many more sailing vessels going long distance than motor attests to this. It is only on the motor boat sites I get heat for suggesting a sail boat as a better boat for distance travel. The ICW excluded unless the mast folds easily.
 
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eyschulman said:
Well the few times I posted the conclusion on motor boat oriented sites, that the modern light well powered sailboat is a much better long distance boat than a motor vessel I got jumped big time. Yes I agree that the attempt to make more ocean friendly power boats such as long lean and low is taking a page from sail boat design. There is one little thing that throws a wrench in the process and that to me is the roll. A mast with sail even while motor sailing is much more comfortable than a narrow boat without stabilization. Of course one can add all types of mechanical stabilization, but I say why ,when the sail rig will do it and also provide excellent long distance axillary propulsion. The fact that there are probably many more sailing vessels going long distance than motor attests to this. It is only on the motor boat sites I get heat for suggesting a sail boat as a better boat for distance travel. The ICW excluded unless the mast folds easily.
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Yup - I'll agree with you on this one.

I'd go almost anywhere is this passage maker.
Used Arthur Robb for Sale | Yachts For Sale | Yachthub
 
Bay Pelican said:
Would not the ideal passagemaker be a long, narrow and low lying boat much like a 60 foot ocean going sailboat without a mast. The smaller the deck house would be the better for heavy weather. Small windows, think portholes, so that they are not caved in by the waves, and perhaps paravanes for stabilization.

The compromises needed for the ideal passagemaker would narrow the market to just someone interested in the boat only because of the passage making ability.

I keep envisioning a sailboat and then I wonder why not use a sailboat.
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You basically have described a Diesel Duck or Dashew FPB.

The problem with sailboats is getting wet, work effort to sail the boat, and initial and long term cost of rigging. Ducks can have/should have a limited sail rig for stabilization, range extension and as a get home method if the engine fails. The temptation is to put in a more extensive sail rig for better sailing but that increases both initial and long term costs. Danged boats are always a compromise. :rofl:

The Diesel Duck pilot house models are the only boat I know being actively built that has relatively small topsides. Every other non custom trawler model I see is a sedan with the galley up, which I can't stand, but I am a minority in that regard. The market seems to prefer galley up vs galley down. But lets be real, the market for passage makers is pretty limited, especially for boats with limited topside structure.

Later,
Dan
 
For those who mentioned the ability to put a boat in a shipping container and meet it in far off places, Bob Perry designed one that is called the Farr Harbour 39 (and its a motor sailor): CONTAINER YACHTS

Not sure how many have been sold, but I have seen avertisements in the past in Cruising World magazine.
 
For those with the "gonna do it vote" and willing to spend their money, nothing compares to the popularity (sheer numbers sold) of Nordhavn for blue water passages in this era. PAE support and backup is outstanding and likely unmatched in the boating world. Most complaints I have heard are from those who don't own them or do not enjoy blue water cruising.

For the budget shoppers, buy a SHM. For those who have the $$, buy a Dashew. Nordhavn seems to fit right in the middle of these two and that spells success.
 
This one looks pretty good to me.
 

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sunchaser said:
For the budget shoppers, buy a SHM. For those who have the $$, buy a Dashew. Nordhavn seems to fit right in the middle of these two and that spells success.
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Hey Sunchaser, I'm relatively new to the scene so this might be a dumb question, but what's SHM? I've always wanted a Nordhavn but alas, I'm far too poor.
 
sunchaser said:
For those with the "gonna do it vote" and willing to spend their money, nothing compares to the popularity (sheer numbers sold) of Nordhavn for blue water passages in this era. PAE support and backup is outstanding and likely unmatched in the boating world. Most complaints I have heard are from those who don't own them or do not enjoy blue water cruising.

For the budget shoppers, buy a SHM. For those who have the $$, buy a Dashew. Nordhavn seems to fit right in the middle of these two and that spells success.
Click to expand...

If you gave me most any Nordhavn, I would sell it and buy a Duck from SHM. I am not impressed with Nordhavns. They sell lots of boats that is for sure but they have lots of windage, need active stabilization, are very expensive, and I don't like the deck plans. I was on a N55 at TrawlerFest and you could feel the boat move when on the fly bridge and a little itty bitty dinghy went by. On a Duck you just did not notice little wakes. Another person looking at the N55 commented on the long, high climb to the fly bridge and how far up we were. It was not a positive comment. If one lost active stabilization I think it would get real ugly up on that fly bridge due to simple physics.

The Dashew boat is a great design and I think the best passage maker out there if one ignores money. I don't like the FPB's need for active stabilization though. If I had enough money for a FPB, I don't know if I would buy one because of active stabilization, I really prefer the galley to be in the hull, and the larger size of the boat. The FPB needs the larger hull to get the design speed but you then have a larger boat which is good and bad. I do like the FPB's look, its speed, technology minus stabilization, and over all design. But since we can't afford a FPB, that only leaves an SHM Duck which I think is the best boat out there for us, especially since money is a factor.

If money was not a problem, the decision would be between a Duck and FPB, Nordhavn would not even be on the list.

Later,
Dan
 
hollywood8118 said:
The problem with most of the long skinny "passage makers" is that most are good for only that.. they make lousy liveaboards once you get to that far off destination. I have been on a number of Diesel Ducks and most have lousy decks to spend time on.. sure they are one of the most fuel efficient voyagers out there but no above deck comfort whatsoever. One I was aboard had those cheap white plastic walmart chairs.. that was it. Some of the best boats, in my opinion allow the occupants to sit on deck either under cover or in the open to enjoy the view of the places you spent so much time and money to get to see.

We have two or three Ducks here in our local marinas and they are well put together and impressive boats.. but still above deck comfort is a distant after thought. I also like the catamaran idea as they are the most roll friendly designs available and do not need any roll control.

I place way more value on the roll characteristics then I do the fuel consumption as the roll offshore if not under control will drive the occupants to shore faster than running out of fuel.

HOLLYWOOD
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Exactly.

When I got into looking a few years ago, the argument for the Kasten type boat made a lot of sense to me at time!

But as I looked into it and as Marin so elegantly pointed out, one will spend an extraordinary amount of time in this boat making passages.

Therefore the awake living accommodations become very important. The size of the salon and covered aft deck in particular.

These websites are really selling plans to dreamers, as the boats will never get built.
 
In my mind, a passage maker should have less volume for its length compared to a protected-waters cruiser.
 
Dan

I get it, climbing stairs and stabilizers are not for everyone. But, steel hulls, no get home except sails and no stabilizers are not for everyone either. SHM fills a necessary price niche and have a nice following. Hats off to them. BTW, any SHM vessels out there with active stabilizers? For some that would be a desired addition.

Some of us have been on an N55 or N60 in a seaway, nothing to carp about regarding stability. But the dratted stabilizers were working. The Windhorse has both active and "fish" with the active being the choice while moving and "fish" at rest.
 
Wxx3 said:
These websites are really selling plans to dreamers, as the boats will never get built.
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:thumb::thumb:

Quite true more often than not.

I will admit that Bob Perry's container sailboat design is intriguing. I'd love to see its power equivalent.
 
Wxx3 said:
These websites are really selling plans to dreamers...
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Like 65 year old guys who dream about taking their boat down the Mackenzie River in northern Canada, do the Northwest Passage west to east, then circumnavigate the world? The Plan

This is probably a sweaping generalization, but I think the long, lean, low to the water boats appeal to those who once having made their crossing and restocking would spend weeks, if not months, anchoring and exploring in isolated areas. Those with the big, beamy, top heavy boats would city hop, and not spend long periods of time in isolation.

As we don't have the funds (yet) to actually make a move on this, it's all insubstantial navel gazing...but fun none the less :)
 
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What IS passage making? Many small commercial vessels make the passage over the Atlantic every year. Look for these "Sea Trucks", they make the passage on their own keel.

PS. At this very moment one of these work horses (a same sister ship) is working at this very moment here in São Luís, Brazil. She came here on her own keel.
 

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It's real interesting to hear the likes and dislikes between Nordhavn and Dashew's FPB. I've obviously made up my mind on the subject, but it's still interesting to discuss. Even setting aside $$, I still prefer the Nordhavn layout and arrangement over the FPB. First, I think the FPBs are butt ugly. I know - lots of people find the Nordhavn's ugly too. Second, I much prefer the more segmented space of the Nordhavn vs the great room design of the FPB, especially in a passage maker. We moved away from Grand Banks, for example, because none of them have a proper pilot house - essentially a dark room in an otherwise occupied and used boat. I just can't get past having to black out the whole Great Room for night operation. That seems to put a real crimp on the rest of the occupant's style.

Yes, speed and efficiency matter, but they are one dimension traded off against many other dimensions. When making a passage, speed matters, but arguably comfort matters just as much, if not more. Plus, how much time do spend making passages vs essentially coastal cruising. The people I know who are venturing all over the world spend way more time doing day cruising than making multi-day passages.

But hey, there are almost as many different boat designs as there are owners out there, so everyone can get what they like best.
 
sunchaser said:
Dan

I get it, climbing stairs and stabilizers are not for everyone. But, steel hulls, no get home except sails and no stabilizers are not for everyone either. SHM fills a necessary price niche and have a nice following. Hats off to them. BTW, any SHM vessels out there with active stabilizers? For some that would be a desired addition.

Some of us have been on an N55 or N60 in a seaway, nothing to carp about regarding stability. But the dratted stabilizers were working. The Windhorse has both active and "fish" with the active being the choice while moving and "fish" at rest.
Click to expand...

I don't know of any SHM Ducks built with active stabilizers but I think some of the non SHM Ducks have had them installed. Active stabilizers costs lots of money, are one more complicated device to fail, are reported to be noisy, and they are needed on boats built with high windage boats that need superstructure to increase living volume. I just don't think they should be on boats sailing across oceans. I have not heard of any SHM Duck owner needing/wanting active stabilization. I think Bill Kimley(SHM) would have a seizure if someone wanted to install active stabilization in a SHM Duck. :rofl:

Most of the SHM Ducks do have paravane stabilizers but Bill will argue with you that they are not needed. :eek::D I want paravanes. :D

We were on a 462 last spring and unfortunately the weather was Chamber of Commerce perfect until we got close to the marina when we were hit with high winds blowing up the sound on our starboard beam. We might have had steep 3 foot waves on the beam but the Duck did not notice. We saw a small planning boat that we thought for sure was going to get swamped because of the waves. That boat rolled a good 45 degrees port and starboard a few times and looked like she was going over. I only mention the smaller boat to describe the wind and wave conditions. The Duck was not bothered at all by the beam wind and waves and no paravanes deployed. We had hoped for really bad weather so we could see how the Duck behaved, instead we just had to enjoy the glorious weather. :rofl:

The Dashew FPBs dont have get home engines and the "smaller" FPB 64 only has a single engine. Get home and twin engines are problematic as the Dashew's point out.

Sails actually make sense since they are fairly reliable, sorta cheap, extend range, and provide stability. Sails can be used all of the time while a get home engine gets used when? The get home engine just sits there and hopefully gets run to make sure it works if needed. A Duck that did have engine problems, due to owner installed out of spec fuel filters, was able to sail back to port.

I really don't get why people want plastic hulls for full displacement boats. I read all of the problems with fiberglass and scratch my head in wonder. At least with metal, if the boat is built right, you get a far better hull. I don't have to worry about blisters, fatigue, keels falling off, or boat structure failure. The Ducks have multiple water tight compartments and are built like tanks. They have sat on reefs for weeks, ran into ice bergs, and hit rocks at 10+ knots with no damage to the hull. One of the Ducks was hit by a ship that got loose from a nearby ship yard and the damage was limited to the Ducks paint job. SHM fixed the paint job and you can't find where the hit happened. These kind of incidents to a plastic boat would have been very expensive to fix, if the boat was not out right totaled/sunk. There is an old aluminium sail boat, whose owner is active on the Cruising forum, that is mentioned in a very old issue of Metal Boat Society. The MBS article is about the boat hitting a log raft in the PNW while sailing at night. No damage to the boat. Would a plastic boat survive that sort of incident?

My two cents is that the Ideal Passamaker is a not very beamy, single engine, with a limited sail plan, a pilot house with galley in the hull, limited windage topside, stand up engine room, paravanes, no need for active stabilization, stern master stateroom, and a metal hull. Unfortunately, I only know of one boat brand/desigh in production that meets these requirements.

I don't like active stabilization which I think is obvious from this post, :D but in spite of that angst, I do like the Dashew's FPB. If money were no object, the FPB would be very tempting but I suspect I would still want a Duck. I think. Maybe. :rofl:

Later,
Dan
 
dannc said:
The Dashew FPBs dont have get home engines and the "smaller" FPB 64 only has a single engine. Get home and twin engines are problematic as the Dashew's point out.
Click to expand...
Dan

To complement the JD 6068, the FPB 64s have get homes, around 100 HP and capable of moving the vessel at 7.5 knots using a Gori folding prop. Windhorse has twin JD 4045s.

Initially the 64s were designed without get homes, but owners balked so get homes were included in the design. The early 64s built without were retrofitted with get homes.
 
sunchaser said:
For those with the "gonna do it vote" and willing to spend their money, nothing compares to the popularity (sheer numbers sold) of Nordhavn for blue water passages in this era. PAE support and backup is outstanding and likely unmatched in the boating world. Most complaints I have heard are from those who don't own them or do not enjoy blue water cruising.

For the budget shoppers, buy a SHM. For those who have the $$, buy a Dashew. Nordhavn seems to fit right in the middle of these two and that spells success.
Click to expand...

Yes!

Comfortable, and capable of safely going anywhere in the world
 
This is my favourite Buehler "Diesel Bird" design so far (don't know if SHM has built one yet) the 55' Diesel Swan...longer and narrower than a Duck;

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dannc said:
I don't know of any SHM Ducks built with active stabilizers but I think some of the non SHM Ducks have had them installed. Active stabilizers costs lots of money, are one more complicated device to fail, are reported to be noisy, and they are needed on boats built with high windage boats that need superstructure to increase living volume. I just don't think they should be on boats sailing across oceans. I have not heard of any SHM Duck owner needing/wanting active stabilization. I think Bill Kimley(SHM) would have a seizure if someone wanted to install active stabilization in a SHM Duck. :rofl:

Most of the SHM Ducks do have paravane stabilizers but Bill will argue with you that they are not needed. :eek::D I want paravanes. :D

We were on a 462 last spring and unfortunately the weather was Chamber of Commerce perfect until we got close to the marina when we were hit with high winds blowing up the sound on our starboard beam. We might have had steep 3 foot waves on the beam but the Duck did not notice. We saw a small planning boat that we thought for sure was going to get swamped because of the waves. That boat rolled a good 45 degrees port and starboard a few times and looked like she was going over. I only mention the smaller boat to describe the wind and wave conditions. The Duck was not bothered at all by the beam wind and waves and no paravanes deployed. We had hoped for really bad weather so we could see how the Duck behaved, instead we just had to enjoy the glorious weather. :rofl:

The Dashew FPBs dont have get home engines and the "smaller" FPB 64 only has a single engine. Get home and twin engines are problematic as the Dashew's point out.

Sails actually make sense since they are fairly reliable, sorta cheap, extend range, and provide stability. Sails can be used all of the time while a get home engine gets used when? The get home engine just sits there and hopefully gets run to make sure it works if needed. A Duck that did have engine problems, due to owner installed out of spec fuel filters, was able to sail back to port.

I really don't get why people want plastic hulls for full displacement boats. I read all of the problems with fiberglass and scratch my head in wonder. At least with metal, if the boat is built right, you get a far better hull. I don't have to worry about blisters, fatigue, keels falling off, or boat structure failure. The Ducks have multiple water tight compartments and are built like tanks. They have sat on reefs for weeks, ran into ice bergs, and hit rocks at 10+ knots with no damage to the hull. One of the Ducks was hit by a ship that got loose from a nearby ship yard and the damage was limited to the Ducks paint job. SHM fixed the paint job and you can't find where the hit happened. These kind of incidents to a plastic boat would have been very expensive to fix, if the boat was not out right totaled/sunk. There is an old aluminium sail boat, whose owner is active on the Cruising forum, that is mentioned in a very old issue of Metal Boat Society. The MBS article is about the boat hitting a log raft in the PNW while sailing at night. No damage to the boat. Would a plastic boat survive that sort of incident?

My two cents is that the Ideal Passamaker is a not very beamy, single engine, with a limited sail plan, a pilot house with galley in the hull, limited windage topside, stand up engine room, paravanes, no need for active stabilization, stern master stateroom, and a metal hull. Unfortunately, I only know of one boat brand/desigh in production that meets these requirements.

I don't like active stabilization which I think is obvious from this post, :D but in spite of that angst, I do like the Dashew's FPB. If money were no object, the FPB would be very tempting but I suspect I would still want a Duck. I think. Maybe. :rofl:

Later,
Dan
Click to expand...

Interesting...

So have you spent any time at sea?
Have personal knowledge on fiberglass vs steel boats ?
Actually ever heard active stabilizers?
Spent real time at sea ( 30 or so straight days ) ?

Many on this forum have, and offer their opinions and experience up so that others may learn from what they have seen/felt/heard/experienced.

Fiberglass boats MAY get blisters, Steal boats WILL rust

Active stabilizers can fail.. most don't... and I never noticed any sound whatsoever.

A lot of us have experienced the cave like living of a low,long sailboat at sea and at anchor... that is #1 on the reason why we switched to trawlering.. it sucks being in a cave.. might be the reason Man evolved to building houses with windows.

The FPB boats are definitely efficient passagemakers, but one must remember that life aboard has many facets and the FPB is a submarine.
Personally for me if the temps are warm enough the flybridge of a typical "Passagemaker" ie. Nordhavn or other "too tall/windage" boat is the perfect place to stand my watches.. viewing all there is to see vs. being low to the water.
I have been there at sea, offshore, in big water and will be again soon.. for me there is no question as to why the Nordhavn and others of the same type have prevailed in the passagemaking world .. it works.

And just to be clear, I know I tout the Nordy's and their abilities.. there are other boats out there that will do the same and are as capable that I also hold in high regard... but this is a opinion biased on personal experiences... which a lot of them have been aboard Nordhavn's

HOLLYWOOD
 
Seahorse Marine makes some very nice non steel boats - in FRP, bow and stern thrusters and with a gyro stabilizer. Check out the Blaine Seeley design on yachtworld for the 52 footer Midnight Sun.
 
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