"The Ideal Passagemaker"

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MurrayM

MurrayM

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Badger
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30' Sundowner Tug
Found the article linked below by Michael Kasten very interesting.

While there is no 'perfect boat', just one with the least amount of compromises for each particular owner, I find his reasoning to be parallel with mine...more inherent seaworthiness and efficiency, less bloat and height.

Here's a bit from the article "The Ideal Passagemaker" by Michael Kasten to whet your appetite;

Questioning Our Design Goals

Given the incentive to do so, one can very certainly design an excellent displacement vessel that is both very efficient, and readily able to exceed the normally considered "limit" of S/L 1.34. Given the right approach to hull form, this can be achieved with relatively low power, and without having to resort to some of the less desirable features of a semi-displacement hull form.

How shall we do this?

Long length, light displacement, narrow beam, a fine entry and a long fine run are the primary ingredients, along with the other usual requirements such as having the correct prismatic.

Of course, you'll not find many "modern" power boats like this.

Why?

Furniture, picture windows, features, gadgets, spare staterooms, systems, backup systems, etc... all within the shortest possible boat length to fit at the dock. In order to achieve vast accommodation space within the shortest possible length, the boat must then become overly tall and wide in order to contain all the desired features.

The inevitable result is that the vessel must then have an enormous hull volume for her waterline length, or an overly large superstructure.

The unfortunate consequence of this trend is that a great deal of extra power and additional fuel are required to propel all of this through the water, often with relative inefficiency. On top of that, we are expected to believe that bow bulbs, squirrel cheeks, maintenance strakes and all manner of other appendages will magically recover some of what has been lost to an over-bloated shape.

By now, you may have discerned that I find this trend somewhat distressing...

*
What to do?

First, a boat can usually be made to require less power and less fuel at the same speed and displacement by simply making the boat longer.

With some hull types, one can use the same power and get greater speed just by lengthening the boat, and without losing actual displaced volume or giving up accommodation space. If by proper design the boat can also be made lighter in the process, the overall result while voyaging is that the lighter, longer, narrower boat will reach her destination in fewer days, having used much less fuel.

In other words, the relatively lighter, longer, leaner boat can be fitted with a smaller engine, will require less fuel for the same passage, and will usually allow more boat for the money.

Interestingly, this does not imply a reduction in luxury! Quite the opposite!
Click to expand...

The Ideal Passagemaker?

Expect no solution to be agreed upon, as in "what constitutes great art", but thought the discussion could be interesting...
 
Ideal passagemaker???

I do not necessarily agree with the article, but I'm no expert.

I think the ideal passagemaker would...

1. Be capable of going anywhere safely in reasonable weather.

2. Be as comfortable as humany possible while meeting goal #1

I do not see a problem with tall or wide boats so long as they meet goal #1. Taller and or wider seems to directly result in better meeting goal #2

I think the current trend of the passagemaker manufacturers in tall boxy comfortable boats is fantastic as they are meeting both goals.

I only wish that I could afford one, and still have the time to afford it. I can only do one... boat or time. I'm choosing time. :)
 
My boat (Bayliner 4788) may not be classified as a trawler, but I run her at hull speeds most of the time. So I operate her as a trawler. I am amused by the fixation on fuel economy. In two years we are averaging a little over 100 hours per year, with about 15 hours at 2400 rpms and 16 knots, the rest of the time at 1500 rpms and 9 knots. Average annual fuel spend around $3600. Moorage is about $9500 per year. Insurance, about $2000 per year. Maintenance and repairs about $10,000 per year.

Make my boat longer and thinner and my moorage costs would increase by more than my fuel savings. I like knowing that I can run at 16 knots all day long if I want to, and at WOT I can run at 20 knots if I really have to (I hope to never have to....) . But for us, the joy is having plenty of room for friends on board, take another couple out for a week's vacation, or for the two of us to stretch out and watch a movie on the TV.

I think the key is to determine what you are going to use the boat for, and be realistic about it. We like to run around the Puget Sound, San Juan and Gulf Islands and BC. If the forecast is for waves over four feet we stay put. Creature comforts are a priority for us. But as they say, to each his own!
 
Ehh, the ideal passagemaker is an airline ticket. I can cover more distance in 6 hours than you can in 3 months. I'll also do it first class for less than 5% of your expence.
 
CPseudonym said:
Ehh, the ideal passagemaker is an airline ticket. I can cover more distance in 6 hours than you can in 3 months. I'll also do it first class for less than 5% of your expence.
Click to expand...

You can also hire a helicopter to fly to the top of the Squamish Chief, or you can climb the face...which way is more fulfilling? ;)
 
MurrayM said:
You can also hire a helicopter to fly to the top of the Squamish Chief, or you can climb the face...which way is more fulfilling? ;)
Click to expand...

The helicopter because I will have a better chance of making it. I will also be back at the bed and breakfast enjoying sundowners before bed time. :socool:
 
I have watching an opposite trend, in the move among sailors to catamarans. In the Eastern Caribbean the majority of new boats are catamarans. This reflects in part the tendency to anchor rather than go into marinas. Marinas charge a premium for cats. In is clear that an important factor is the larger saloon space and the above water visibility that the catamarans have compared to a monohull.
h
Are the cats good passage makers? My opinion is no, although they are faster and use less fuel when motoring than a monohull.

Reality is that boats are compromises. Few choose to compromise on every issue in favor of passagemaking rather than livability.
 
CPseudonym said:
The helicopter because I will have a better chance of making it. I will also be back at the bed and breakfast enjoying sundowners before bed time. :socool:
Click to expand...

Hey! I enjoy Sundowner's too!! :thumb:
 
Robster_in_edmonds said:
I am amused by the fixation on fuel economy. In two years we are averaging a little over 100 hours per year, with about 15 hours at 2400 rpms and 16 knots, the rest of the time at 1500 rpms and 9 knots. Average annual fuel spend around $3600.
Click to expand...

A Passagemaker might put 5000 miles under its keel in a year...the difference in efficiencies could save you tens of thousands of dollars in fuel consumption. That's significant for some people, an afterthought to others.
 
I find that Passagemaker Lite facinating. I wonder how much it would cost to build something like that.
 
CPseudonym said:
Ehh, the ideal passagemaker is an airline ticket. I can cover more distance in 6 hours than you can in 3 months. I'll also do it first class for less than 5% of your expence.
Click to expand...

There you go. A man after my own heart (and my company's).

The other week we had to go to Malaysia. So we got on our 777-300ER Passagemaker, and went to Dubai (14 hours) and then Kuala Lumpur (6 hours). Had we taken a brand new Nordhavn 60-something footer, we would have been staring at a blank ocean until we either died of boredom or impatience.

I have no quarrel with the folks who think crossing oceans at 10 or 12 knots is a really enjoyable thing to do. However, I've spent enough time on the open ocean around Hawaii saiing and fishing (in other people's boats) to know that for me, particularly as I get older, life's too short to spend it bobbing around in the middle of a big blue bowl waiting to get to where I want to go.

So my idea of the ideal Passagemaker is long, narrow, and has a pair of 115,000 pound thrust engines on it with a cruise speed of Mach .87 or thereabouts.:)
 
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Perhaps the ultimate embodiment of the concept of a long skinny ocean crosser:

Idlewild

-57 feet long
-55 horsepower
-1.3 g.p.h. at 6.5 knots.
-Holder of the longest non-stop passage record by a power yacht (according to its designer, George Buehler). Australia to South Africa.

Idlewild%20in%20ice-2.jpg
 
Not sure about the concept of anchoring one's boat to something equally unattached to the bottom, but it's a very nice looking boat in my opinion. Thanks for putting up the photo.
 
Marin said:
Not sure about the concept of anchoring one's boat to something equally unattached to the bottom, but it's a very nice looking boat in my opinion. Thanks for putting up the photo.
Click to expand...

Maybe they were fixing to tow that berg along on their circumnavigation so they would not run out of ice cubes for the whisky.

Steve
 
I'm with marin. Airplanes are for passage making. Years ago I was tending to a blown out reef crossing the bar into SF when I looked up and saw jets bound for SFO. I knew they were collecting cocktail glasses and it hit me that I was in the wrong place.
 
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Wayfarer said:
I find that Passagemaker Lite facinating. I wonder how much it would cost to build something like that.
Click to expand...

It's a good question, everyone wants to know the same thing, unfortunately it's really tough to answer without asking dozens of questions in reply.

Depending on where you build, who does the work, construction material, finish level, oversight, engineering, insurance/financing, and equipment choices, the cost can vary wildly.

A fully painted custom aluminum boat built in a high-end Northern European yard with full guarantee might cost $90+ (USD) per pound (light ship displacement). And Bering, a newish steel trawler yacht builder in China, claims to be building what appear to well done boats at $11 per pound. And there's everything in between. I think Dashew's unpainted production aluminum 64's are running about $34-38 per pound today.
 
Robster_in_edmonds said:
My boat (Bayliner 4788) may not be classified as a trawler, but I run her at hull speeds most of the time. So I operate her as a trawler. I am amused by the fixation on fuel economy. In two years we are averaging a little over 100 hours per year, with about 15 hours at 2400 rpms and 16 knots, the rest of the time at 1500 rpms and 9 knots. Average annual fuel spend around $3600. Moorage is about $9500 per year. Insurance, about $2000 per year. Maintenance and repairs about $10,000 per year.

...

I think the key is to determine what you are going to use the boat for, and be realistic about it. We like to run around the Puget Sound, San Juan and Gulf Islands and BC. If the forecast is for waves over four feet we stay put. Creature comforts are a priority for us. But as they say, to each his own!
Click to expand...

The subject is about passagemaking boats so fuel use is a big deal if one is actually making passages and not sitting at a dock. Sitting at the dock is not a bad thing but it can't be compared to running the boat and burning fuel.

We are looking at two boats one with 2,000 gallons of fuel and the other might be 2,400 gallons. Tis a guess about fuel capacity on the second boat because it is still in the design phase but it is three feet longer than the one boat, which is the base of the new design, so another 400 gallons is a good guestimate.

Just to fill up the boat will cost $8,000 if fuel is $4 per gallon! :eek: Thankfully, that much fuel will last a long time and allow one to go 6,000-8,000 miles.

We want the larger boat but the fuel burn bothers me since it looks like the larger boat will need 1/2 GPH for the same speed which is around 15% more. Neither sounds like much but that is an extra 200+ gallons which is roughly 900ish miles or $800ish. Money wise, it likely comes out in the wash, I suspect we will spend more on health and boat insurance each month compared to fuel costs. :eek: But a penny saved is a penny earned and the difference in the fuel burn is A LOT of pennies.

Don't get me started up the fuel inefficient, but "green," Tier III diesel engine. :mad: The new JD Tier III engine costs .4/.5 GPH to maintain a 30/40% load on the engine compared to the Tier II engine. :nonono:

Later,
Dan
 
The problem with most of the long skinny "passage makers" is that most are good for only that.. they make lousy liveaboards once you get to that far off destination. I have been on a number of Diesel Ducks and most have lousy decks to spend time on.. sure they are one of the most fuel efficient voyagers out there but no above deck comfort whatsoever. One I was aboard had those cheap white plastic walmart chairs.. that was it. Some of the best boats, in my opinion allow the occupants to sit on deck either under cover or in the open to enjoy the view of the places you spent so much time and money to get to see.

We have two or three Ducks here in our local marinas and they are well put together and impressive boats.. but still above deck comfort is a distant after thought. I also like the catamaran idea as they are the most roll friendly designs available and do not need any roll control.

I place way more value on the roll characteristics then I do the fuel consumption as the roll offshore if not under control will drive the occupants to shore faster than running out of fuel.

HOLLYWOOD
 
I was only partly kidding about the airline ticket post earlier. Hollywood nailed the rest of the passagemaker problem for me. Roll control and boredom are the two biggest enemies of passagmaking IMO.
 
hollywood8118 said:
The problem with most of the long skinny "passage makers" is that most are good for only that.. they make lousy liveaboards once you get to that far off destination.
Click to expand...

I think that might depend on what somebody considers minumum requirements for comfort, and the primary function of the boat.

As a backpacker, sea kayaking felt like car camping because you could bring so much stuff, and now our 30' boat has way more storage space than we have things to fill it with.

If your needs are frugal and the boat is basically a moving base camp for further adventures ashore, or a mothership for a smaller craft to explore up rivers or along exposed shorelines, then one of them skinny boats might be just the ticket.
 
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hollywood8118 said:
The problem with most of the long skinny "passage makers" is that most are good for only that.. they make lousy liveaboards once you get to that far off destination. I have been on a number of Diesel Ducks and most have lousy decks to spend time on.. sure they are one of the most fuel efficient voyagers out there but no above deck comfort whatsoever. One I was aboard had those cheap white plastic walmart chairs.. that was it. Some of the best boats, in my opinion allow the occupants to sit on deck either under cover or in the open to enjoy the view of the places you spent so much time and money to get to see.

We have two or three Ducks here in our local marinas and they are well put together and impressive boats.. but still above deck comfort is a distant after thought. I also like the catamaran idea as they are the most roll friendly designs available and do not need any roll control.
...

HOLLYWOOD
Click to expand...

The older Duck have pretty bad aft deck sitting areas. Heck, lets be real, they have no aft deck sitting areas. :eek: But the latest Seahorse Ducks have a very nice covered cockpit aft of the pilot house. One guy fell asleep stretched across the cock pit on a short trip we did last spring which impressed me since the guy is about 6'2".

The Ducks with a fly bridge have even more outside sitting areas but some owners do not want the fly bridge for a variety of reasons. Personally, I would want the fly bridge since it makes using the boat in shallow water safer and it gives you yet more time to be outside the boat to enjoy good weather.

Later,
Dan
 
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But they have now lost the plot a bit. Originally they came with Cummins or JD 4 cyl engines of around 150 HP. More than enough power really. One charterer cruised on just 1 Cummins at 2000rpm for 9.5kn. Now with the Yanmar 370HP V8's as the standard option they can go faster (25 Kn?) but with small fuel tankage they wont go very far at that speed. No doubt market driven. Personally I would want the small engines and be very happy cruising in the 'teens. I would not have the 4 heads/4 double charter GA either. Although the 'owners' or 3 double cabin version would be pretty nice. But frankly, 2 heads/showers are enough.

But similar issues to long and skinny as far as marina's are concerned - hard to find a suitable berth, and it will cost you eg 2 x mono berths next to each other.

To me they are ugly, but I think I could learn to live with it.

What I would really like to do is take a PH trawler and put some cat hulls underneath, but retain the trawler sheerline. The droopy bows on many cats, and straight and blocky hull lines, give a poor aesthetic. In contrast cats then get overdone on curves for the house. I like curves, but very few cats can get the balance right.
 
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In the original article, it seems to me that the author's definition of the perfect passagemaker is actually the most fuel efficient passagemaker. All of his tradeoffs favored speed and efficiency.

I think for most of us, that's one of many things that matter. Several people have brought up space and comfort. I can relate to that.
 
Can't afford (financially, emotionally, or physically) a passagemaker. So I take a 900+foot ship for $50 to $100 a day. Most appreciate the piano bar.
 
Most if not all the discussions about the perfect or best boat even when restricted to a specific use pattern such as a passage maker usually come down to balancing physical design criteria one against another. What ends up pleasing one person will not suffice for another. Production or spec. builders will choose what they perceive as the most marketable compromise to reach a market with the dollars to spend. It is in the highly custom one off boats where you can find considerable divergence toward an individuals taste or implementation of previous experience with boats. I find these one off boats the most interesting to study. One individual may put great emphasis on fuel burn and tankage another on a fly bridge another on a sumptuous master suite or sea keeping it pretty much gets personal. In the end there is obviously no perfect boat and when you think you have found one just let a little time pass and you may change your mind. So many perfect or almost perfect boats get sold in order to buy the next perfect boat.
 
eyschulman said:
Most if not all the discussions about the perfect or best boat even when restricted to a specific use pattern such as a passage maker usually come down to balancing physical design criteria one against another. What ends up pleasing one person will not suffice for another. Production or spec. builders will choose what they perceive as the most marketable compromise to reach a market with the dollars to spend. It is in the highly custom one off boats where you can find considerable divergence toward an individuals taste or implementation of previous experience with boats. I find these one off boats the most interesting to study. One individual may put great emphasis on fuel burn and tankage another on a fly bridge another on a sumptuous master suite or sea keeping it pretty much gets personal. In the end there is obviously no perfect boat and when you think you have found one just let a little time pass and you may change your mind. So many perfect or almost perfect boats get sold in order to buy the next perfect boat.
Click to expand...

Well put.
 
eyschulman said:
It is in the highly custom one off boats where you can find considerable divergence toward an individuals taste or implementation of previous experience with boats. I find these one off boats the most interesting to study.
Click to expand...

A classic George Buehler example of a successful custom design;

Idlewild
 
I have long thought the ideal distance cruiser is a ticket and a boat that can be shipped inside a Sea Land 40 ft cargo box.

Sure its going to be cozy inside with a 7.6 ft beam , but to visit inshore for a couple of moths the jaccuzi and bowling alley wont be missed.

Ideal for a couple but (UGH) 6 total could be carried .

The vessel would use the Atkin Sea Bright box keel and reverse deadrise hull shape.

With no Sea Tow in most of the world a boat that is built to take the beach would be a big help in areas where paper charts are hard to come by.

Built in Aluminum . Poland perhaps , the cost would not be outrageous .KISS would dominate.

The best is flying somewhere and shipping the boat would probably cost much less than motoring to the destination.

With the world economy tottering , shipping a box is CHEAP!!
 
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Container shipping rates dropped 20% this past week for the busiest container routes in the world. Asian ports to Northern Europe dropped to below $1000 per TEU (20' box). The break even point for the large shippers is acknowleged to be $1000. Over capacity and weakening demand is apparently the culprit.
 
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