Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

"You can also be in charge of leaning over the bow, and turning 175# of steel with an 8' boat hook so it'll line up with the hawse pipe"

Shouldn't happen!

We have a P&S pair of hawse pipes on our 90/90 for at least 3 decades.

AS soon as the anchor is clear of the ground , hanging straight down , the weight of the chain causes* the chain to get* straight from its own weight and the anchor and mud.

No question some hawse pipes require a particular line up , but that's a design problem/flaw , not the result of twisted chain.

-- Edited by FF on Wednesday 13th of October 2010 04:33:38 AM

"I can see the possible need for it there but any twist that is in the chain from a wandering boat in the wind and tide should easily get unwound in 100' (or so) of chain on the way up."

I dont think so. It seems to me that the entire 100ft in your example will not be freely hanging from the boat to an end that can freely turn (the anchor).

If the dept of water is 15ft and you let out 100ft of chain, and the chain is twisted, you will be pulling up twisted chain all the way until the anchor is free from the mud. Once the anchor is hanging free and loose, THEN the chain can unwind.

Yes? No?

R.

FF, when you were a naval architect, being psychic must have come in real handy, what with the ability to see a "design problem/flaw" without ever having to use anything but your imagination.* Remarkable skill.

Ralphyost, Delfin uses a vertical windlass that has a perfectly straight run over a roller directly overboard.* The only amount of twist you need to invert the anchor so that it is facing the wrong way and can't be brought home is, well, 1/2 of a turn.* Since this only happens about once in 5 times, I honestly can't figure out the psychics of what conditions cause it sometimes and not others.* Flipping the Bruce over with a hook is an easy job with a swivel, but a nuisance without, hence the swivel.

"FF, when you were a naval architect, being psychic must have come in real handy, what with the ability to see a "design problem/flaw" without ever having to use anything but your imagination. Remarkable skill."


Actually growing up on City Island in NYC , back in the day of wooden boats gave me the ability to observe the best of the best.

Minnefords , Nevins , Consolidated and all the rest had marine railways ,, covered sheds and built and serviced almost anything.

Sure the cup boats were there but also tons of "houseboats " Trumphy's from 50 to about 80 ft.

And about every size and shape boat seen.

"Maid of Marion" about 95 ft was my favorite , but I got on almost all of them , by being a gopher.

The captains were usually far too lazy to WALK! anywhere ,
so small daily groceries , something from Mafia Brothers , the chandler would be good for a 25c tip. Great for 1956 and only bicycle expenses..

MY early experience convinced me the best way to "design" a boat was to STEAL!

Great ways of doing everything existed for a long time , the secret is research , to find them.

Never a need to reinvent the wheel! Just find a damn good one to COPY!

But best of all I could go aboard and see and talk to the boat operators , who were never shy if something worked like CRAP!

In FL my small library usually has a few ways to "solve" any problem, being good at spatila relationships (visualize in 3D) does help.


-- Edited by FF on Wednesday 13th of October 2010 08:54:51 AM

As with Delfin's setup, my roller allows the anchor and chain*to hang straight down. Gravity is a miracle The Bruce is designed so that the weight of the anchor immediately*swivels itself down when the shank enters the roller. Each time every time so far - again with the swivel allowing the rotation.

Marin, as an ex underground miner, I can tell you swivels work on very heavy loads. Please note there are no shackles on the Chile rescue capsule hoist cable.

-- Edited by sunchaser on Wednesday 13th of October 2010 09:16:47 AM

Sunchaser, that was the way the 44# Bruce on our sailboat worked as well.* 20,000 miles and I can't remember when it didn't present in the right position.* On Delfin, a percentage of the time the Bruce presents 180 degrees off.* I think the issue is that with a lighter anchor, it will flip around when it gets close to the roller, like the Bruce always did on the sailboat.* However on Delfin, the thing weighs so much that it doesn't flip around because of the 4 times greater mass.*** A Bruce anchor actually wants to rotate out of position when its in the water because the path of least resistance is for the flukes to be bending away from the drag through the water, if you get my drift.* What is supposed to happen is that once in the air, they'll rotate as you start dragging them over the roller so they come home correctly.* With a bigger anchor, this doesn't seem to happen all of the time.* At least that's the theory.

Sorry to get your feathers up Delfin. Having such a small boat I don't always think how it would be w a much larger boat. However I can't see why the anchor wouldn't come up exactly as it went down when it gets to the top as the chain on the gypsy will not allow any twist at all. Even if it's twisted badly on the bottom when the anchor lifts off it should promptly start to assume it's prior alignment. As the anchor rises it should rotate to unwind the twist and the closer it gets to the bow roller the greater the force should be that causes it to realign to it's original position. Actually perhaps the swivel could CAUSE the problem as the chain WILL come over the bow exactly as it went down and w a swivel the anchor could come up 90 or 270 degrees different than it went down. So you see it's possible the swivel is causing the problem instead of preventing it. With my 90% nylon rode my new anchor (when I get it) will not clock itself in any way at all so I will always need to hang over the bow and coax it to align to the bow roller. Perhaps I've missed another advantage to the all chain rode but if you guys need a swivel that may not be true.

As Delfin aptly points out, the swivel does greatly help align the anchor shank to the roller.

We have noticed many coupled have the women operate the boat during anchoring and the man operates the anchor machinery. We dont. When we bought the trawler, I allowed my bride the option to choose: run the boat or the anchor operation. She was more comfortable with the anchor. So now she is my Anchor Babe.
http://tinyurl.com/3ycxkt8

She doesnt have a lot of strength (or patience) to spin the anchor. So the swivel is essential for her ease of operation and quality of life ! We use a fairly heavy SuperMaxx anchor and use the boat pole in the picture to align it when retrieving.

I think the answer is clear.

If a swivel is desired, then by all means it can be safely and securely used as long as you choose a swivel that is rated at least as high as the chain strength. And, it should attach to an equally strong shackle which mates to the shank of the anchor.

Next eternal debate: which anchor is best?

R.

Ralphyost - Which anchor is best?* My current theory is that the answer has a lot more to do with the weight range you are talking about than the design of the anchor itslef.* In other words, one design that performs best in the 30# test won't do nearly as well in the 100# test.* If you watch the videos that Rocna has done, and others on Youtube, you can see CQRs and Bruces dragging merrily along the beach while the 30# Rocna digs in.* However, if you were to repeat the test with 175# anchors, I can guarantee that the Bruce would dig in.* The original design was for for anchoring oil rigs, and they didn't use 50# models for that.* For lighter weights, I think there are much better designs than the Bruce.

So, my conclusion is that in the weight that I want - 150# plus - the Bruce type is best because once dug in, it's not a plow like the Rocna or the CQR, but a big, wide hunk of metal that doesn't want to move through the subsurface.* Were I needing a 40# anchor, I would probably go with a Rocna type.*

I've used Danforth sytles, and like them, but they are a pain to handle and ultimately won't/can't bury themselves like a Bruce will if the Bruce is heavy enough. That said, I carry an 85# Fortress as a secondary.

sunchaser wrote:

Marin, as an ex underground miner, I can tell you swivels work on very heavy loads. Please note there are no shackles on the Chile rescue capsule hoist cable.

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I'm not questioning the strength of swivels when used properly.* In applications where they are installed properly so the load goes straight through the axis of the swivel, they are fine as long as the load doesn't exceed the strength of the swivel.* It's only when a side load is put on a swivel--- one end being pulled sideways while the other end is fastened*in such a way as to*prevent the swivel from "pointing" at the load--- that breaking problems can occur.* This is the setup people introduce when they attach a swivel directy to the anchor using the "legs" on the swivel.* But if one doesn't do that but installs it in such a way that it can pivot and rotate any direction that the load demands to keep the axis of the swivel lined up with the load, they're fine.

I don't believe in using them in an anchor rode not because they don't work (if you install them correctly) but because I don't believe they add anything to the picture. It's an unnecessary component in my view.** If there is any twist to the anchor rode--- and around here the way boats are moved around their anchors by currents and wind*I'm sure there is--- it all comes out as soon as the anchor leaves the bottom.*

I've never had our anchor--- Bruce or Rocna--- come up revolving on the chain*by the time it got to the suface.* It may not be aligned to come over*the bow roller the right way, but once it's reached the surface it's settled into whatever alignment it's going to have and it's not revolving at all.* The boat's movement in waves might make it swing but it never rotates.* It did*rotate*sometimes*when we had a swivel in the rode which as far as I was concerned made aligning it even more*of a pain.* So in our experience a swivel was of no benefit and simply added a component to a system*we believe is best off with as few components as possible.

If someone needs a swivel to help position the anchor prior to it coming up over the bow roller or into a hawsepipe and that's the only way to properly position the anchor without banging up the boat, then a swivel is the answer as long as it's installed correctly.

*

Marin wrote:If there is any twist to the anchor rode--- and around here the way boats are moved around their anchors by currents and wind*I'm sure there is--- it all comes out as soon as the anchor leaves the bottom.*

Click to expand...

So back to the original question, why does the chain kink like this?

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Because you dump the chain in a heap, rather than backing down on it once the anchor hits the floor.* Stop doing that, and your rode will stop doing this.

Delfin: Nice theory, but not so. My anchor frequenty comes up looking just like john's picture. I always let it unwind on the windlass and back down on it to set it properly. I don't have a swivel, I have a large shackle attached to the anchor and the chain attaches to the shackle with a smaller shackle. The large shackle frequently comes up in exactly the same orientation as in John's picture. I use a CQR, so the style of anchor seems to have nothing to do with it. I rarely have any twist in the rode, occasionally a 180 turn is necessary to flip the anchor over to its resting position in the roller.

My swivel attaches directly to the Bruce, no shackle. And no mess or kinks like fedex is showing.

Sunchaser, the problem went away for me as well with the installation of a stout swivel, since the chain can no longer flip a shackle over with the chain pulling in the opposite direction.* Pre swivel, by backing down on the chain as soon as the anchor hit the seabed, I rarely had the problem, although turning the anchor with a boat hook when it came up bass ackwards to bring it home still argued for the swivel.*

What's pictured seems like it could only happen when the chain doubles back on the shank, bringing the shackle, and in this case a 2 axis swivel with it, then doubling back leaving the shackle pointed in the wrong direction.* That might happen with current, but it always seemed to me to happen when I tried to just drop a pile of chain without backing down a bit to straighten everything out.* Just my experience, but apparently not Koliver's.

WHY DOES THE CHAIN KINK LIKE THISANSWER


it dosn't


THE SWIVEL DOES


When this anchor was raised the swivel got into a position of 90 degrees (like a dog leg) and jammed enough so it didn't rotate (swivel). This caused what you see in the picture and I'm sure you could duplicate this on the deck of your boat * *....however I do not understand why the shackle pin isn't at the top of the slot on the anchor shank. The shackle pin could be hanging up on the chain link and some other force could be jamming the shackle but without the swivel this could not happen. Marin pointed out that the swivel is weak w a side load and xfedx's picture shows that the swivel can jam in a dogleg position. I think this picture should discourage anyone from using a swivel. And I think w an all chain rode and a bow roller w a grove in the center or some other means of keeping the chain in line so the chain does not rotate from the gypsy to the bow roller the anchor should come up the same every time.

Aaaagghhh!

markpierce wrote:

Aaaagghhh!

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Yep.

*

So there you have it, the problem is too strong a swivel.

OK guys I'll get the tomatoes off later. xfedex called for an answer and I delivered * *...gave it my best shot * * ...it's your turn.Here's a pic of an old fish boat w an anchor rode obviously twisted up a bit w Marins favorite anchor proudly on the bow and sadly a bit blemished but can you imagine the swiver this rig would require????

Eric, it looks like he bent the darn thing.* I guess it must have held then in quite a blow......

nomadwilly wrote:


Here's a pic of an old fish boat w an anchor rode obviously twisted up a bit w Marins favorite anchor proudly on the bow and sadly a bit blemished but can you imagine the swivel this rig would require????

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The anchor or the whole boat?

*

Well Marin here's the whole boat. The anchor probably got bent a long time ago * *...or was loaned out. It brobably got caught between rocks and pulled sideways. Even swivels don't like that. ha ha. I've seen several Bruce anchors bent in Craig * * ..mostly on larger boats.And probably in weather like we had last night.*I hate to see a boat neglected like this but one can see easily what a lady she once was.*And I know you like these old girls Marin.
Forgot the pic.


-- Edited by nomadwilly on Thursday 14th of October 2010 01:26:17 PM

A hull like that has to be over a hundred yers old.
You think?

skipperdude wrote:

A hull like that has to be over a hundred yers old.
You think?

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Given its almost identical lines*and configuration*to some smaller, well-kept-up*salmon trollers in our marina, I'd guess the boat dates from the mid-1940s, just after the war.* It's original engine was most likely gas.

A lot of these little trollers were built in the 1940s in the Puget Sound harbors, out at Port Angeles on the San Juan Strait, and along the BC coast.


-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 14th of October 2010 02:37:02 PM

Interesting.*
I have seen quite a few centurian fishing boats up here.
Wood hulls still working the fishing trade a hundred years later.

SD

Oh * *...SD *..Just figured it out. Centurian = turn of the century. Yes?Some of you guys are going to like this after what I've said about swivels.
One of my favorite books (Chapman) just let me down. I'll quote the two older books.
"Swivels, are required on an all chain rode to prevent snarls". My newest Chapman book (1999) says "swivels are often an added refinement. Since swivels are a weak point, they must be large; on an all chain rode they are essential. Swivels, however, should not be used with twisted soft-laid synthetic lines; a hockle (kink) may be the result."
I still stand as previous (against swivels) but I thought you "swivelers" would like to hear/see the above.

The 2009 version of Chapman has the same wording as the 1999 except*to add the sentence "Double-braided synthetic lines will not hockle, even though subjected to very heavy strains."

Marin wrote:
We've decided that a swivel is unnecessary so we don't use one at all anymore.* We use a single shackle to conect the chain to the anchor and we put the round end of the shackle through the anchor shank and the shackle pin through the chain.

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* * * ** I finally got around to doing this.... I no longer have a swivel.

******* It doesn't look as sexy as a swivel but is considerably stronger.

"It doesn't look as sexy as a swivel but is considerably stronger."

It might be stronger IF you purchased a RATED , Marked shakle , rather than unmarked Chinese junk from a local marina.

Underwater with the boat at stake , "Made in the USA " works for me.