Electric generator/charger?

Bay Pelican said:

Windpower for a boat, why hasn't someone thought of that.

Click to expand...

I think I mentioned a sail somewhere in this thread.

It seems to me for the OP's intended purpose of bird watching in the winter he would be better off just buying one of the Duffy electric boats mentioned previously and not messing up and devaluing his "classic" boat.

That's just my opinion.

I think if done right and his Elco is in good condition to begin with....it might be a real niche boat and be worth more than he has in it.

True a bristol Elco is worth a pretty penny, but not sure the demand for one to be OK or capable of looping in that size would over that of exactly what he is trying to do.

Like Bertram 31 refits and others...

In fact, the guy who has the Duffy near me also has a classic Bert 31 and has been offered more than he has in it on numerous occasions.

How many times do I have to cover this. Get a quality 110v to 12 volt battery charger. Avoid the inverter-charger units due to inefficiency. Get a high quality inverter, ohhh say 2000KW, very important, pure sine wave. No square wave, no modified sine wave, pure sine wave only.

Now that you are set up, your pure sine wave inverter is producing 110v from your batteries, insure your quality battery charger is on your 110 inverter circuit. Make sure your charger is on. Your inverter will provide 110 to your charger to charge your batteries.

Get back to me about the effectiveness of this well thought out plan. As a back up plan try the extension cord or even better a real generator. I would avoid the drag behind water turbine.

Mule said:

How many times do I have to cover this. Get a quality 110v to 12 volt battery charger. Avoid the inverter-charger units due to inefficiency. Get a high quality inverter, ohhh say 2000KW, very important, pure sine wave. No square wave, no modified sine wave, pure sine wave only.

Now that you are set up, your pure sine wave inverter is producing 110v from your batteries, insure your quality battery charger is on your 110 inverter circuit. Make sure your charger is on. Your inverter will provide 110 to your charger to charge your batteries.

Get back to me about the effectiveness of this well thought out plan. As a back up plan try the extension cord or even better a real generator. I would avoid the drag behind water turbine.

Click to expand...

I agree. Go for it

Hey guys, is this any way to treat a new member. I hope Starside has a good sense of humor. I know it is all in jest, but could be taken another way.

After reading through the suggestions, it is plain to see that dealing with an antique classic boat is a little different. To keep the purity of the appearance. solar and wind seem to be out. The 2 to 3 KW portable generator could work, but take a pretty long time to store much charge. It seems to me that hybrid power would be a good but expensive solution.

I don't think anyone has suggested a small (maybe 11-15 hp) 4 stroke outboard for emergency power. It could be off the boat unless on an extended cruise. Hartges has storage lockers that it could be stored on a wheeled stand that she could roll down the dock. The only addition to the boat would be a bracket that could raise and lower the motor.

https://www.google.com/search?q=sai...sJI2ZyASX0ICgDA&ved=0CEcQsAQ&biw=1366&bih=635

My $.02.

Aww, come on Don, we are on post #96.....this thing has morphed in every direction. In no way was I trying to be offensive to the OP. I think and hope my humor is well received and again I hope I help people laugh. Being offensive is hardly ever my intent. No worries...be happy...

There sure have been a few tangents on this thread. But after sifting through the ashes it seems that Starside has a pretty good idea. The Elco electric propulsion motor seems like a very good product. There is a larger Elco Cruisette that has been repowered on the company web site. The big issue is the range. Perhaps the best way to get good info is from Elco because they have the engineering capability. You can do just about anything if you spend the money......

Moonstruck said:

Hey guys, is this any way to treat a new member. I hope Starside has a good sense of humor. I know it is all in jest, but could be taken another way.

After reading through the suggestions, it is plain to see that dealing with an antique classic boat is a little different. To keep the purity of the appearance. solar and wind seem to be out. The 2 to 3 KW portable generator could work, but take a pretty long time to store much charge. It seems to me that hybrid power would be a good but expensive solution.

I don't think anyone has suggested a small (maybe 11-15 hp) 4 stroke outboard for emergency power. It could be off the boat unless on an extended cruise. Hartges has storage lockers that it could be stored on a wheeled stand that she could roll down the dock. The only addition to the boat would be a bracket that could raise and lower the motor.

https://www.google.com/search?q=sai...sJI2ZyASX0ICgDA&ved=0CEcQsAQ&biw=1366&bih=635

My $.02.

Click to expand...

Your right, of course. It's just very interesting to see how this has all evolved. The OP asked a very specific question about an electric-driven generator to recharge her electric boat while underway/away from a dock. I think I answered it in the very first reply, and I must say I did so in a mature and adult manner. I can be a grown-up from time to time.

But of the 100 or so replies, virtually none of them address the question, but rather go on about whether the OP should be doing what she's doing, how it's all wrong, etc, etc.

I really admire the OP's commitment to older boats, clarity of values, clarity of use, and determination to succeed down a particular path. She may not be a physicist or an engineer, but seems way more determined to get something done than most people I know. I hope she succeeds, and admit to being a little punchy after 100 mostly-irrelevant replies.

twistedtree said:

....... The OP asked a very specific question about an electric-driven generator to recharge her electric boat while underway/away from a dock. ..............

Click to expand...

But couldn't explain what was meant by an "electric generator".

I must admit that I do get a little confused by so many who seem to think I am harming Starside.

I've done an amazing restoration, complete with refastening using Monel fasteners, not to mention repairing rot, frame boards, new rub & spray rails, stuffing box, paint, varnish, transom repairs & a hundred other things!

So I am a little miffed that so many seem to think that an electric conversion - after all I've done & spent on her - is ruining my Elco! I don't care for those negative judgments about my restoration decisions...& for those who say I should have gotten a Duffy? Why would I do that? I have a rare & special wooden vessel that is the perfect electric launch esp considering her Elco pedigree. I'll add that anyone who puts the time & money into these rare classics should be applauded, especially since Most peeps Do ruin their wood boats! They allow them to go unmaintained & they slowly die in someone's back yard or to sink at marinas! I rescued my boat from that fate & restored her to her former glory.

Anyway, just as everyone here has expressed an opinion, that is mine. I'll add that I do appreciate this Forum & truly hope to still connect with other boaters on the Bay...

Okay, now I feel better getting that off my chest!

I do think this thread has run itself out, though. I appreciate all of the ideas & General support.

I would add as many solar panels as practical, plus a Honda and a very good charger/inverter with battery isolators. But, what do I know? I use a diesel engine.

Kudos on the restoration. That is no trivial task and you should be commended on that!!

As you get further into the electric repower, there a several technical folks here that are willing to help.

Just need to put up with a little "guff", but the tech advice is usually worth it!!

The only way he will get 12HP at 106 amps is if his set up is 84+ volts.. Entirely possible but a different world than we live in. He can do welding on the side.

Edit: Maybe he is using a regen system that generates electricity from spinning the prop as the boat moves or maybe its cold fusion. sounds exciting.

bayview said:

The only way he will get 12HP at 106 amps is if his set up is 84+ volts.. Entirely possible but a different world than we live in. He can do welding on the side.

Edit: Maybe he is using a regen system that generates electricity from spinning the prop as the boat moves or maybe

Click to expand...

Could be three phase.

Hope to see you on the bay. We are on the North East river.
How long did the restoration take?

There are folks on every forum that whine and complain every time I try and mail them my extra gold bars. Go figure?

Take what you want, ignore the rest, and carry on with a great job!

With dilithium crystals?

Oh shat, these are not dylithium chrystals they're folgers chrystals . Anyone that has restored a classic wood boat has my respect.

bayview said:

The only way he will get 12HP at 106 amps is if his set up is 84+ volts.. Entirely possible but a different world than we live in. He can do welding on the side.

Edit: Maybe he is using a regen system that generates electricity from spinning the prop as the boat moves or maybe its cold fusion. sounds exciting.

Click to expand...

Northern Spy said:

Could be three phase.

Click to expand...

bayview said:

With dilithium crystals?

Click to expand...

Do the math. 48V, 106A, 3 phase AC can make ~12bhp.

To the OP. I think you building a heck of a cool boat.

Iota 48 Volt 20 Amp w/External IQ-4 Sensor

This is just what I found as I approached the idea you've committed to. Boats with character make me smile. I hope you enjoy the project, as I doubt one would want to take on such an endeavor more than once. Old wood and new technology; what a challenge!

To begin, I always appreciate when someone knows WHAT they WANT. From there we have a direction.

The charger at URL/link is 48V 20 AMP capable of running on a generator. "Iota DLS can be used without a battery as a straight Power Supply".

If as Northern Spy says, your motor needs 60 AMPS to produce 12 HP then the next question would be: How much generator capacity does the charger need to produce a continuous 20 AMPs? Followed by how much good would 20 AMPs do for the main motor? Would this result in about a 4 BHP system? Would this be enough to beat the tides?

If a Honda 3000 inverter generator is up to the task and 20 continuous amps will move the boat at "get home" speed, I think the time for such a craft may have arrived.

I see ELCO has chargers available too. What do they have to say?

Any plans on a dinghy? With an OB?

Starside said:

................... So I am a little miffed that so many seem to think that an electric conversion - after all I've done & spent on her - is ruining my Elco! I don't care for those negative judgments about my restoration decisions...& for those who say I should have gotten a Duffy? Why would I do that? I have a rare & special wooden vessel that is the perfect electric launch esp considering her Elco pedigree. I'll add that anyone who puts the time & money into these rare classics should be applauded, especially since Most peeps Do ruin their wood boats! They allow them to go unmaintained & they slowly die in someone's back yard or to sink at marinas! I rescued my boat from that fate & restored her to her former glory. ...

Click to expand...

If you're going to get "a little miffed" if people post things that you don'r agree with, perhaps this is not the place for you to be. There are hundreds of members her from all over the world and with every background imaginable. Some have a great deal of knowledge in the mechanical and electrical fields, other with navigating, cruising, etc. Others are lacking in knowledge and come here to learn.

When you started this thread looking for an "electric generator", you set yourself up as a person not knowing much about electricity, yet you are building an electric powered boat. Can you see where some of the joke posts are coming from?

The people who commented that you may be devaluing your boat are sincere in their opinions and I agree with them. Remember, this is a web forum and you're going to get all sorts of opinions.

My suggestion to just buy an electric boat in the first place (after you stated that you wanted an electric boat to be able to sneak up on wildlife) was sincere as well. Buying an electric boat (Duffy), you know up front what it will cost and you can take a sea trial to see how it will perform before you write the check. I am entitled to my opinion and you are entitled to ignore or rebut it. You can even add my name to your "ignore list" if you wish.

Best of luck with your project. I hope you and your boatyard can figure this out.

The main reason that I can see an electric motor devaluing your boat is if you try to sell it the market will be extremely limited. You will have to find a person that will never want to go out for more than a 4 hour ride and even that would be 'at best'. If you don't mind the devaluing, then it is not an issue. If you don't believe us, call a few brokers and see what they say about a 28 mile range - at best.
If you run a generator to re-power your batteries, doesn't that defeat the purpose of battery power.
As for wind generators, they are fine on sailboats where the wind IS your propulsion. On powerboats this might change. I'm not sure about the following statement but it makes sense to me: A wind generator creates drag even with the blades spinning. That drag causes the boat's engine to require more power to run at a desired speed. My guess is that the power generated is less than power used up by the engine to overcome the drag.
Next consideration - If you have to run generators, why not just run the gas or diesel engine to propel the boat instead of produce electricity? The same noise is being generated.

Question: You have your own telescope and planetarium on board. How does that work out? Most of us could hardly hold binoculars steady on a boat.

Final thought: Why not stick with the diesel engine and just drag a dinghy with an electric O/B motor behind you. Then just anchor out somewhere and take the dink in for close and personal.

Tony B said:

The main reason that I can see an electric motor devaluing your boat is if you try to sell it the market will be extremely limited. You will have to find a person that will never want to go out for more than a 4 hour ride and even that would be 'at best'. If you don't mind the devaluing, then it is not an issue. If you don't believe us, call a few brokers and see what they say about a 28 mile range - at best.

Click to expand...

For this type of boat, the normal use is probably well under 4 hours per day. They are more for looks than cruising. Resale shouldn't be an issue for an antique classic specially when you consider the operating costs and maintenance savings associated with the propulsion system. She won't have to worry about rusting fuel tanks, diesel bugs, oil changes, raw water cooling, filters, transmissions and on and on. The market for antique classic picnic boats is fairly limited and a niche market anyway. Anyway, no risk, no reward and the advantages of electric versus fossil fuels are many within the right envelope.

After thinking about it some more, solar and/or wind power would change the character of the boat too much. The real kicker is whether or not electric propulsion changes the character of the antique classic boat. Unfortunately, few of us have the budget to experiment with this type of thing. I admire her for the example she is setting.

If I could get 50-60NM per day on a battery powered trawler in the 35-40 ft range, I certainly would do so if I could recharge with shore power or a genny overnight.

Donsan said:

......... If I could get 50-60NM per day on a battery powered trawler in the 35-40 ft range, I certainly would do so if I could recharge with shore power or a genny overnight.

Click to expand...

Recharging the batteries pretty much defeats the purpose of an electric powered boat, doesn't it?

rwidman said:

Recharging the batteries pretty much defeats the purpose of an electric powered boat, doesn't it?

Click to expand...

Yes it does but I would augment with solar and wind. Somehow, the charge would need to be built back up overnight, in the morning or while underway. Power regenration seems to be where electric power falls short for cruising.

Didn't we used to have a guy here that owned a totally electric power cat?

He admitted daily range wasn't great but it suited his needs.

Sure the Elco will not be covered with panels or a windgen...but storage and regeneration plus overnight charging can certainly provide.

The OP can probably achieve his goals without too much more effort or thinking.

I doubt Elco engineers and his yard are giving him such bad info that a couple of not to well up on the subject guys here are going to or shouldn't deter him.

psneeld said:

Didn't we used to have a guy here that owned a totally electric power cat?

He admitted daily range wasn't great but it suited his needs.

Sure the Elco will not be covered with panels or a windgen...but storage and regeneration plus overnight charging can certainly provide.

The OP can probably achieve his goals without too much more effort or thinking.

I doubt Elco engineers and his yard are giving him such bad info that a couple of not to well up on the subject guys here are going to or shouldn't deter him.

Click to expand...

There used to be a poster who had a 40' Island Pilot hybrid. I believe it was RBTrane. The boat seems to be for sale now and it doesn't look like he has posted on TF in almost a year. The stated range is 25NM and I believe that is on batteries alone before the Steyr diesels have to kick in. I read the old posts and he liked the boat but admitted to some design deficiencies.

2009 Island Pilot DSe12m Hybrid Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Note the 6Kw solar array. The price on the boat doesn't seem to be that bad for a 40' late model trawler.

My thought is 50-60NM range is needed to be a commercial success.

I don't disagree.....

But he and for that matter many other boaters don't like boats that are designed for commercial success.

There's no reason that a bilge full of good batteries, with a good compatible charging system and a good understanding of the boats limitations can't easily be met.

psneeld said:

But he and for that matter many other boaters don't like boats that are designed for commercial success.

There's no reason that a bilge full of good batteries, with a good compatible charging system and a good understanding of the boats limitations can't easily be met.

Click to expand...

Unless there is some degree of commercial success, the boat designers, the manufacturers, the component builders, battery technology development just will not move forward. If I recall, RBTrane admitted the Island Pilot hybrid project was not a commercial success and I got the impression they were looking for a green market. He may not have been the designer but he certainly was involved with Island Pilot. I was kind of hoping he would chime in on this Elco project.

You don't have to look much farther than Tesla to see how commercial success leads to expansion of the envelope. They are able to sell a lot of electric automobiles which in turn leads to further R&D. Unfortunately, I don't think any boat builder has ever reached that kind of economy of scale although Sea Ray may have come close.

One reason for commercial success is government subsidy. Sure, I'll build something good if the government makes it cheaper for consumers.

One reason Honda and Toyota had such great success with hybrids is that they were selling them at about 2/3rds the cost to make. They wrote it off as R&D. Why take long periods of time to develop technology and have to pay engineers six figure salaries when you can just put something together, give it to consumers, make it cheaper, and throw in a good warranty in case something comes up unforseen. That is exactly what happened. Toyota perfected it, sold it to Ford and Nissan, then came out with hybrid version 2.0 which was much better.

I hope everything works out with this conversion. Being different is cool!