Electric generator/charger?

Elco already has the solution right here: The EP Hybrid Electric Serial System - Elco Motor Yachts

rwidman said:

Now there's an idea. A wind generator on a boat to charge a battery to keep an electric boat going. Anybody see anything wrong with that idea?

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Seems like a free energy scam to me...if you could figure that out ExxonMobil may take you out with sniper fire

Donsan said:

Pray, tell us more about your thinking. I do suspect wind power would be better at anchor and really meant to pitch solar panels but wind should make good augmentation. One of posters, I believe Mule, has both solar and wind.

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My thinking is that it would be the classic perpetual motion machine. Any wind generated electricity resulting from the boat's forward motion would be at the expense of the battery powering the boat.

Wind is fine at anchor or at a dock (except for the noise) and of course solar panels are fine if you have a place to put them. Neither is very efficient at this point in time and neither is going to add significantly to the range of an electric boat of this size.

Skinny said:

Seems like a free energy scam to me...if you could figure that out ExxonMobil may take you out with sniper fire

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I should have put a at the end of that post.

Wind Generator with a DC fan mounted behind it so it will work even when the wind is not blowing.

rwidman said:

I should have put a at the end of that post.

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It exists on the interweb...

I wonder how far that will motor? Did Toyota introduce an electric motor to market that operates above 100% efficiency???

rwidman said:

My thinking is that it would be the classic perpetual motion machine. Any wind generated electricity resulting from the boat's forward motion would be at the expense of the battery powering the boat.

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Admittedly, wind won't help much underway but the wind generators rotate to the direction of the wind. If you are making 6 knots and there is a 15 knot following wind, you should get some charge, right? Never meant to suggest perpetual motion.

But you are right, best use is at anchor or at dock unless you are a sailboat guy.

Popular topic!

Just so you'll know, I chose the Elco motor because my boat is an Elco & I have a strong commitment to the company, obviously.

Re wind, I asked about that & my yard crew dismissed it. They also dismissed solar. They have my best interest in mind, including my budget! The latter is most important.

Use solar and mount a bank of LED lights shining down on it for night powering.

ulysses said:

Use solar and mount a bank of LED lights shining down on it for night powering.

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You can't do that, must use incandescent for perpetual light driven electricity generator!

I'm trying to figure out - if you can put gasoline in a generator and produce electricity, could you turn the generator with an external source and produce gasoline?

I think one of these should do it . . . .

I can't believe I'm actually posting this

Starside said:

Hi DJ, the Elco EP-1200 is what was recommended for my boat by Elco & my yard, so I have to assume it's the right engine. They assure me I'll have ample range at 6-7 knots for 4 hours.

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djmarchand said:

The ELCO motor that you have chosen uses 48 V at 106 amps DC maximum. But the motor itself is alternating current, not DC. You will need some kind of inverter/controller to make AC from the DC battery supply. The ELCO site says that you use four 12V batteries to power the motor. That means that you cannot use 6, 12V batteries which gives you 72 volts. You have to use them in groups of 4 for 48 volts.

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Could be easily explained; perhaps the implementation will be 4 batteries for propulsion, 2 for house loads.

-Chris

Here's what a 22 foot cuddy cabin all electric launch has...


22 Cuddy Cabin

Length: 22' - 0"
Beam: 9' - 3"
Draft: 29"
Capacity: 12 Adults
Displacement: 4,315 lbs.
Top Speed: 6.0 MPH
Running Time:
@ Cruising Speed: 12.5 hours
@ Top Speed: 6.5 hours

48-volt DC Motor
6-volt Deep Cycle Marine Batteries (16)

A guy I know has one of these and there are a boatload of batteries...he may have even added more even though he never goes far.

One possible solution...2 banks... use one till it's down...start using the other and start charging the first. That way you always have an emergency backup in case of a bank malfunction and you can control the charge rate better on a smaller, non loaded bank ...I would think.

Not only practical electric boats are here, they have been around awhile, and are getting better every day.

Is it a loop boat? Probably not, but not every boat is good for every use.

psneeld said:

.............One possible solution...2 banks... use one till it's down...start using the other and start charging the first. That way you always have an emergency backup in case of a bank malfunction and you can control the charge rate better on a smaller, non loaded bank ...I would think.

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Let's keep in mind that it's very hard on the batteries to discharge them more than 50% and even then, you need to recharge them quickly for longest life.

For practical purposes, a 400 AH battery bank is only good for 200 AH, 800 AH good for only 400 AH, etc.

Yes, you can build an electrically powered boat. Fill the bilge with 1,000 lb of batteries and you can cruise all day but you still need to tie up at a marina and recharge the batteries every night.

I suppose you could go experimental and buy a bunch of lithium ion batteries but they are very expensive and more than a few have caught fire.

The auto industry, both here and abroad have spent years and millions of dollars trying to produce an electric car. So far, they have not come up with anything practical and cost effective except maybe for riding around town.

If a practical electric powered boat ever becomes available it will be using technology yet to be developed by the auto industry.

Yes you can build an electric powered boat today but the only reason to do so is to be able to say you did it. It's not going to be practical for most folks.

Now that I'm realizing it's a 48V motor... looks like the mainstream options might be something like:

-4x 12V 8Ds @ ~245 Ah
-8x 6V GCs at ~220 Ah (maybe not a great option)
-8x tall 6V GCs at ~300 Ah
-8x tallest 6V GCs at ~400 Ah
(all pretty within the same basic length x width footprint)

So somewhere between 120-200 Ah (48V) at no less than 50% discharge.

I think it'd be quite attractive to be able to putter around many of our creeks and rivers quietly. Or for a pleasant 30-minute run to OP's nearest pleasant anchorage for a quiet overnight on the hook. Or for harbor cruises and so forth.

That's not a "let's head down the ICW and cross over to the islands" kind of boat... but not everyone wants/needs one of those...

I hadn't noticed before, but it's intriguing to now see Elco offers some interesting electric outboards. I could see something like that on our big canoe, for duck hunting... or for trash pickup when we have a river-keeper kind of day. Our current 2-stoke 5-hp gas outboard is a more mainstream solution, but it's not the quietest thing in the world, ethanol is a pain in the a$$, but OTOH Elco is pretty proud of their 5-hp model (like about 3x the cost of our gas outboard, not counting the batteries). Still, "quiet" is a very desirable virtue.

-Chris

rwidman said:

The auto industry, both her and abroad have spent years and millions of dollars trying to produce an electric car. So far, they have not come up with anything practical and cost effective except maybe for riding around town.

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For some reason the vast majority of people did not pay attention in science class. I was a Toyota technician when the first Prius came to market. Sure you get regen braking to recoup lost energy during acceleration. Sure you get start/stop features to not burn fuel idling. Maybe that nets you 10-20% real world savings in miles per gallon.

At the end of the day you still have a primary propulsion system that wastes 2/3rds of the BTU energy out the exhaust and radiator as heat. We can never get around that no matter what how you skin the cat. The ONLY way cars will ever become drastically more efficient in a scenario where recharging or electric generation (like a Volt) is out of the question is fuel cell. You atomically gather a bunch of electrons in a near perfect manner and send them through a motor which is upwards of 80-90% efficient. It's the only way right now it can be done in my opinion. Any constant duty long running energy demand cannot be met with some type of hybrid system (in a small scale like a vehicle) with an internal combustion engine.

Well Duffy boats has done ok...obviously a more specialized boat than most would buy (unlike cars that need to be more practical or specialized to do well for mass production).

Not every cruiser does 100 miles a day, or needs to go 8+ knots ,or is counting the days till they leave on a long voyage.

But some well off folk like to glide around in silence and are buying them, and rental fleets are doing well. Check out their site for a business opportunity...oh that's right, they aren't practical.

Skinny said:

For some reason the vast majority of people did not pay attention in science class. I was a Toyota technician when the first Prius came to market. Sure you get regen braking to recoup lost energy during acceleration. Sure you get start/stop features to not burn fuel idling. Maybe that nets you 10-20% real world savings in miles per gallon.

At the end of the day you still have a primary propulsion system that wastes 2/3rds of the BTU energy out the exhaust and radiator as heat. We can never get around that no matter what how you skin the cat. The ONLY way cars will ever become drastically more efficient in a scenario where recharging or electric generation (like a Volt) is out of the question is fuel cell. You atomically gather a bunch of electrons in a near perfect manner and send them through a motor which is upwards of 80-90% efficient. It's the only way right now it can be done in my opinion. Any constant duty long running energy demand cannot be met with some type of hybrid system (in a small scale like a vehicle) with an internal combustion engine.

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Exactly. With a very large investment in time and money, fuel cells or vastly improved batteries are likely to become available and practical. This is not going to happen in the next few years.

psneeld said:

Well Duffy boats has done ok...obviously a more specialized boat than most would buy (unlike cars that need to be more practical or specialized to do well for mass production).

Not every cruiser does 100 miles a day, or needs to go 8+ knots ,or is counting the days till they leave on a long voyage.

But some well off folk like to glide around in silence and are buying them, and rental fleets are doing well. Check out their site for a business opportunity...oh that's right, they aren't practical.

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Yes, I saw a couple Duffy boats on my recent cruise. Nor cruising but in a marina in downtown Baltimore. They would take people out an harbor tours. That's a good use for them. I can't begin to comprehend someone taking an electric powered boat on the ICW from Norfolk to Miami.

If given a clean sheet of paper and a decent budget, I could design a diesel based propulsion system that would be incredibly quiet and smooth, and burn only a couple gallons of fuel for puttering around all day. Sailboat aux engines include numerous features to save cost, causing them to be rather rude and crude, but they get the job done. If designed for smooth and quiet and efficient, you could challenge the same features in an electric launch. And probably less initial and operating cost. Just need to set the parameters and go from there.

rwidman said:

I can't begin to comprehend someone taking an electric powered boat on the ICW from Norfolk to Miami.

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Are there very many people trying it? Or any, perhaps aside from Reuben?

-Chris

Starside, I love your boat. I would never own a wooden boat but am thankful that others have the desire and funds to keep them going. I am interested in this electric propulsion idea. I am wondering why you have gotten involved in it. What was the reason that you feel that electric propulsion is the way to go? I have rented Duffy launches a few times and love the silent, smooth propulsion. In the limited range sheltered water application it was great. But setting up a longer range situation would be expensive. Just wondering what you expect to do with your boat. What was it powered with originally and currently? Best of luck with what ever you do.

If your system is 24 volt I just pulled a perfectly good mastervolt battery charger 24v/30amp/3 outputs units off my boat I will sell it for half new price.

Billyfeet said:

Starside, I love your boat. I would never own a wooden boat but am thankful that others have the desire and funds to keep them going. I am interested in this electric propulsion idea. I am wondering why you have gotten involved in it. What was the reason that you feel that electric propulsion is the way to go? I have rented Duffy launches a few times and love the silent, smooth propulsion. In the limited range sheltered water application it was great. But setting up a longer range situation would be expensive. Just wondering what you expect to do with your boat. What was it powered with originally and currently? Best of luck with what ever you do.

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Thank you for asking, Billyfeet!

My boat originally had a 3-cyl Perkins diesel -- I cruised her for a year and the engine was fine, although very loud. Still, it's a hardy engine and I've already gotten a few offers on it.

That said, I'm going electric for several reasons: (1) my boat is a "pocket cruiser" -- that is, she's only 27' and my cruising style is short range (I'm more of a picnic boat with an average cruise of 2 hours, so it's a natural transition for me to have a true electric launch (think: ELCO!)); (2) I'm a huge bird watcher -- and the electric motor is silent and allows me to sneak up on nature without alarming wildlife; (3) as a bird watcher and photographer, the electric motor allows me to cruise all year round...and the Chesapeake's waterfowl tends to be at its peak in the winter months, so I'll be one of the few boats out there able to take advantage of the natural beauty; and finally (4) I'm also an amatuar stargazer and have my own telescope and planetarium on board -- just imagine going out at night to star gaze away from people...with nothing but silence and the night sky....and a few good friends...

The only time I cruise longer is to exhibit at the classic boat shows. I do the St. Michael's show ever year...and I've been invited to a few others along the Bay. I admit that I'm very proud of Starside's restoration and love exhibiting her, not to mention being around other classic boats and their owners. There's a comraderie there that I value.

So there you have it...bird watcher, stargazer, and classic boat show exhibitor...in other words, I'm a marina hopper and a poet at heart! The electric launch just suits my style...and no winterizing! that's another benefit of going electric...you really can use your boat all year round...
-joan

Starside said:

IMy motor is the Elco motor w 6 deka 8D AGM glass matte wet cell batteries.

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Haven't read every post in the thread, so maybe somone's already mentioned this. But depending on the exact batteries used, a pair of 6 volt golf cart type batteries will deliver about the same amp hours as a single 8D. And most 8D battery boxes will hold three 6vdc golf cart batteries. So if you have two 8D boxes you get the same power as three 8Ds.

That is what we did in our boat: six golf cart batteries in place of the original two 8Ds. So twice the house power (4 golf cart batteries) and the same start power (two golf cart batteries) with no change to the battery box arrangement or the boat's wiring other than the short cables tying the batteries together.

This might get you the additional power you need to do what you want to do without the hassle of a generator-- gas, diesel, electric, or bicycle pedal.

Thank you, Marin.

My system is 12v but I'll ask my yard crew about that. Maybe I could have a few golf cart batteries as my backup. Love that it takes less space.

Thank you.

Windpower for a boat, why hasn't someone thought of that.

Maybe I could have a few golf cart batteries as my backup. Love that it takes less space.

Battery power is based on weight (of the lead) not on size.

Deep cycles will work better for this application as most 8D are truck start batts that suffer in a deep cycle application.

I doubt if you will get 1/4 the range desired with out a very serious batter bank up sizing..

Post your desirements on ,

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/

And see what folks who have attempted this have discovered.

Starside said:

Thank you, Marin.

My system is 12v but I'll ask my yard crew about that. Maybe I could have a few golf cart batteries as my backup. Love that it takes less space.

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I think you'll find with that motor you actually have a 48V propulsion system, comprised of (probably) 4x of the six 12V batteries you mentioned before. The way they're connected makes it into one 48V battery bank.

Your house systems may very well be 12V. I'm guessing the two remaining batteries (of your six) are connected differently, so that second bank remains at 12V.

Our recommendation for true deep cycle 6V golf cart batteries is mostly because they would seem to be better suited to your purpose.

But "takes less space" is not quite literally exact. Each single battery is smaller, but it takes a pair (two) of them to make 12V... so it takes 8 to make up a 48V system. OTOH, off the cuff I thought I was remembering 2x 6V batteries will fit in the same space as an 8D; but I think Marin said 3x in the same space as a single 8D... so in that sense, yep, you can stuff even more of 'em into the same area

-Chris