Bodega Bay Boat Capsize

Eric, On several occasions that has been the case. The last was to wrestle a line out of the wheel. Down to shorts and in!! Used the wife's serrated knife for what seemed to be record in line removal!!.
Al

RT Firefly said:

Greetings,
Mr. FW's contribution brings up a question. Manual or self inflating PFD's? I went to a demo one time and the presenter mentioned HE preferred a full manual inflation type unit. He mentioned a possibility of being trapped in an overturned vessel IF the PFD self inflated before the wearer could extricate themselves to the "outside". Thoughts please?

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Having worn inflatable type preservers since 1979 (military aviation) and had them on inside of objects that could wind up in the water unexpectedly...

I would love one that you could safety when appropriate...but alas those would not meet USCG regs as they would require training and common sense.

So the best alternative is auto inflate as the vast majority of the time you would need one you would probably be outside anyway...unless you are one to always wear one when inside a cabin.

Boating as I know it and boaters that I know would benefit much greater frm auto as they rarely wear one indoors and therefore the auto is a greater asset than threat.

Greetings,
Mr. ps. I would think if the weather was snotty enough, suggesting peril, we would be wearing PFD's in the pilot house. I NEVER go looking for bad weather but if caught out...
I fully appreciate the possibility of being knocked unconscious and therein lies the conundrum.

RT Firefly said:

Greetings,
Mr. FW's contribution brings up a question. Manual or self inflating PFD's? I went to a demo one time and the presenter mentioned HE preferred a full manual inflation type unit. He mentioned a possibility of being trapped in an overturned vessel IF the PFD self inflated before the wearer could extricate themselves to the "outside". Thoughts please?

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Well, your choices are a traditional vest or an inflatable. It seems in your scenario that both types present the same problem.

I'm sure there is a problem scenario for every type of vest, so it comes down to maximizing your chance of survival across a whole range of scenarios. Air bags are no different. Yes, they can kick your ass when they go off, but on the whole you are way better off with them than without.

RT Firefly said:

Greetings,
Mr. ps. I would think if the weather was snotty enough, suggesting peril, we would be wearing PFD's in the pilot house. I NEVER go looking for bad weather but if caught out...
I fully appreciate the possibility of being knocked unconscious and therein lies the conundrum.

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I follow but not really...

If the weather is snotty and you are inside....how are you going to need a life jacket unless going in the water?

If you are inside...the only way you are going in the water is if the bilge is full to the main deck or you roll over.

If you roll over and start to sink...as been said...do you want an auto on? or even...most people in a rollover become so disoriented...the probability of getting trapped and drowning even with a manual on is pretty high.

If you are just sinking...alarm abandon ship..everyone grab their strategically placed PFD, don it and proceed to the point of disembarkation.

Unless you are a well trained, physically fit crew...exiting a cabin full of water and rapidly sinking from a rollover is pretty iffy...especially if the water is below 60 degrees and takes your breath away quickly....

My suggestion is just buy autos and leave them hanging by the door...if the weather gets snotty enough that a rollover is possible...chances are you are pretty well set in one position hanging on and the life jacket should be next to you.

I also believe in having the autos to wear when working out on deck...but also standard offshore jackets in a bag on the flying bridge. If conditions warrant, they can be brought down or left to surface in case of a rollover.

But again...I see myself in the water in a few situations where the auto wins hands down.

That may not be for everyone...but considering what I do and have done around the water...it would take a lot to convince me otherwise...certainly WAY more than an auto inflating inside a cabin in the 1:1,000,000 chance of my boat rolling over.

I see the greatest threat to an old trawler like mine being a fire more than flooding and certainly with good seamanship a rollover.

Then again I'm not taking my tub for serious bluewater...but I still think my reasoning holds....

You all have convinced me. I will jump into the gumby suit.

hollywood8118 said:

I am waiting for the next new controversial thread..

"Do you wear a PFD at all times or not?"




HOLLYWOOD

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Only when skiing, tubing, wakboarding or trying to impress the USCG with my Mustang.

Both these stories sure do argue for wearing a PDF all the time. When I imagine my boat sinking, I typically think of a slowish process of taking on water and a controlled process of donning jackets, gumby suits, depliying raft, grabbing ditch bag, etc. Oh, and a boat that remains more or less trim during the whole process.

It's likely none of that is reality. These stories show how fast you can find yourself in the water with no boat around you.

In my experience in dealing with hundreds of sinkers....and reviewing hundreds more....most sinkings usually do occur relatively slowly...in fact most never get to the full blown sunk stage as many are self induced that self correct.

The engine pumps the bilge full of water till the engine dies...or the boat is slogging though slop taking on water till the engine dies or the captain gives up and changes course...

If you regularly run breaking inlets or are a blue water type...then sure your chances of a rollover are much better than an ICW type.

But they are even pretty rare compared to the average sinking in all of the boating community....think of how a boat sinks (wooden boats excluded)...how is it going to happen fast?

Only occasionally is a skipper so unaware of his boat that they take on enough water and the skipper allows the conditions to become right for the free surface effect to roll the boat. Many commercial rollovers are usually because of unsecured gear or cargo.

Children should have PFDs whenever on deck, regardless of the height of railings on a boat.

Most states require children below 12-13 to be in PFDs when above deck.

a capsize can happen in calm water

I rescude two men from a capsized 19' Boston Whaler in mirror calm water in San Pablo Bay. The were fishing out by the pump house when they claim to have fowled there prop with anchor line which pulled transom under swamping the Whaler which emediatly rolled putting both in 55 deg water without life jackets. They were both standing on bottom of the Whaler when we spotted the from a couple miles off. It was a cold Feb with nights in the 20's. They were already very cold with uncontrollable shaking. My point being that even the venerable unsinkable Whaler can be capsized in perfect water.

Alaskan Sea-Duction said:

Do you think these folks would be alive today if they wore PFDs?

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Who knows, there could have been other circumstances. But I would think the correct PFD has to help, especially if unconscious. It has to be one that forces you face up. (Type 1)

I spent over a week in 1976 pulling the victims of the George Prince Ferry collision and sinking out of the Mississippi River. None had on jackets. I did note that female victims floated face up and males face down after about three days. The ferry was certainly equipped with adequate number of Type I vests just complacent passengers would never think of wearing them especially those in their cars.
I don't wear mine all the time, in fact very rarely but I dam well have them handy and very readily available. And everyone else on the boat knows where they are.

For those that don't remember that incident the George Prince ran across the Miss. River carrying passengers most in vehicles between Lulla and Destrehan, La. Struck early am in fog by a south bound ship. Capt. body had alcohol in his system and an empty bottle of seagram's seven was found in the wheel house trash can.
New Orleans being as they are created the cocktail immediately thereafter called the "George Prince" Seagrams Seven and River water on the rocks.

dhmeissner said:

Who knows, there could have been other circumstances. But I would think the correct PFD has to help, especially if unconscious. It has to be one that forces you face up. (Type 1)

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HB That water was 58deg according to the sheriff report. That is cold enough to make you gasp when you hit the water potentially disabling you. With life jacket you have chance to recover from the initial shock. What doesn't make sense to me is that they found them on the surface without jackets on.

Scary said:

What kind of boat were they on.

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I can't remember the brand, but it's a 22 footer...similar to a small Parker.

Alaskan Sea-Duction said:

Do you think these folks would be alive today if they wore PFDs?

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Yes, the guys from the 32 footer would probably be alive. I saw an interview on the news with the survivor explaining how one friend was alive, but sank underwater after just a few minutes. He had to paddle for 25 minutes to get to the island.

Here's link to the video interview.

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Here's an excerpt from an email from my friend, Seon, on his capsize. (emphasis mine)

My accident was a real eye opener to respect those “rogue” waves at Bodega. It was a very close for me on that day. I was trapped in the house and was knocked back when the second wave hit. The two guys were fortunately thrown clear because they were towards the stern while I was at the helm.

There was minimal boat damage but the electronics and motors were totaled. Fortunately my insurance covered the salvage cost (over $7800) as well as the agreed value of the boat. But shy of the cost of the electronics. Upside was that all of us survived. BTW that 32 footer capsized exactly at the same location as my boat.

hollywood8118 said:

I am waiting for the next new controversial thread..

"Do you wear a PFD at all times or not?"

Click to expand...

We've had threads like this several times in the past, but....

We wear our auto/manual Mustang vests at all times when the boat is underway other than going to the head or checking the engine room.

Unlike the Sospenders auto/manual vests we used to use, the Mustang will not inflate simply because it gets wet. It uses pressure to fire the inflation system and so it has to be actually immersed in water before the auto-inflate mechanism will activate.

Eric, This post is directed to you for your knowledge of the local area. Yesterday evening a “snorter of a storm blew through. Wind registered at the Ketchikan airport at 96 mph. We live directly in a SE direction from the airport straight in from the Pond Reef marker. So our home was directly in line with the airport and the blunt of the wind. I can attest that large thremopane window can flex a great amount!! We experienced no problems although the house shook like a bowl of Jell-O!

This high wind along with an extreme high tide resulted in a good drift flow of logs and flotsam. As we burn beach wood for home heat any opportunity to gather wood is taken. So I put on my type 111 sport vest, launched my trusty Sportyak and rowed out among the drift. Yep, wouldn’t you know it. flipped the Sportyak over as I was pounding a dog into the log. Am out from shore about 100 feet.

My very first thought was “Damn, the Trawler Forum will shake their collective heads over this “Ollie look at the mess you have us in” situation.

I have no idea what the water temperature but guess about 50 so degrees maybe less, didn’t enter into the equation at this juncture, Kicked the overturned Sportyak into shore with the just nailed log still attached, Took all of 15 minutes. Wife met me on the beach with a cup of laced coffee. A good woman is always a good woman!

So here we have a “It happened today” event. Very happy to have worn the vest even though it may not be current USCG approved, it felt good to have it about my chest.

Stay safe
Al

hollywood8118 said:

I am waiting for the next new controversial thread..

"Do you wear a PFD at all times or not?"




HOLLYWOOD

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Well, I have made quite an investment in several automatic inflating vests. To get my mate and guests to wear them, I insist everyone wears them when we leave the dock. I also wear one in the dinghy. As captain you have enough to deal with in an emergency. We run in and out of inlets and a lot offshore. I don't want to be worrying if everyone can float. The modern inflatables are not that uncomfortable.

Moonstruck said:

The modern inflatables are not that uncomfortable.

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My wife and I would take that farther and say that with a modern inflatable, it's easy to forget you even have it on.

We carry an extra pair of auto/manual vest for guests, and like Don we require them to be worn at all times when the boat is underway. Also like Don, PFDs are required wearing in the diinghy. We have never had any reluctance on the part of our guests to wear them.

Except one. The guy who is largely reponsible for us getting into this kind of boating refuses to wear any kind of PFD when he's on our boat, which so far has been three times, I think. A lifetime boater, he has his own Mustang vest and brings it with him. But he won't wear it because it makes him feel like he's a little kid who has to wear one because mommy said so. For him, it's an image thing. Since he's never been on our boat for anything other than a short cruise in the bay, we've let him get away with it. But we probably shouldn't......

I had to quit having the grand kids in the dinghy with inflatable vests. We had a couple deploy because of exuberant activity. Not a real problem. Just had to get new kits. They are mostly all grown up now. 2 in college, and 2 more headed there next year.

From Mustang inflatable operator manual:
Non-swimmers and children especially should wear a hybrid or non-Inflatable PFD at all times when on or near the water.

A "hybrid" has some buoyancy even not inflated.

Life jackets help 4 men survive capsizing; Coast Guard, good Samaritan respond

Some people use lifevests!

windmill29130 said:

Life jackets help 4 men survive capsizing; Coast Guard, good Samaritan respond

Some people use lifevests!

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markpierce said:

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Three happy kids, life is good!

PFD's are like seat belts in cars. When they were first required people screamed and hollered about the "What if's". It was generally just looking for an excuse because they didn't like wearing them. What if car on fire and they can't get unbelted was the most common. Another was injuries from the belt. But the overwhelming fact is that they save a huge number of lives while they may very rarely cost a life.

I never wore a life jacket growing up on the lake. But I remember going deep sea fishing and being told I'd have to wear one and I was one very unhappy boy. Today we don't wear them at all times but we sure wear them when out to sea or in circumstances with significant risk and we sure require them on kids and any non swimmers. And far more a requirement in cold water. And to encourage us all we have purchased quite a huge number of inflatables. Very expensive but well worth it. An expensive one likely to be worn is a far greater value than a cheap one not likely to be worn. We also keep jackets out on deck, either hung in various places or on seating, so it can quickly be grabbed. But not hidden under or behind seats in in other storage.

Scary said:

What kind of boat were they on.

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Here's a pic of the capsized boat taken before the event when we were crabbing.

Boy does that look tippy or what.

FlyWright said:

Here's a pic of the capsized boat taken before the event when we were crabbing.

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Photos probably aren't a good way of judging balance. But that boat looks like the cabin top is fairly heavy with the large glass and fiberglass top. With an outboard that large and the absence of a large low mounted inboard for ballast it just looks like it's ready to go over.