New Rocna

Here it is boys and gals. The new Rocna "Vulcan".

Some bow bling from H/C! She looks great! Good to see a repurposing for all those old tractor seats rusting in fields around the world.

Were you Parks' first Rocna sale?

FlyWright said:

Some bow bling from H/C! She looks great! Good to see a repurposing for all those old tractor seats rusting in fields around the world.



Were you Parks' first Rocna sale?

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No, don't think it was for sale. The rep said they should be shipping out in December. If I remember correctly he said they were making them up to 88lbs's.

I think the new Rocna is going to be a good option for people like me who pull their anchor up through a pulpit. It's a beautiful anchor that just looks like it will grab the earth and hold on.

HopCar said:

I think the new Rocna is going to be a good option for people like me who pull their anchor up through a pulpit. It's a beautiful anchor that just looks like it will grab the earth and hold on.

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H/C do you know what the metallurgy is of the components - shank, flukes, etc?

Delfin said:

H/C do you know what the metallurgy is of the components - shank, flukes, etc?

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Yeah was curious about that too. The shank seemed really thin. I asked him about that and said they tried make it light as possible so all weight is at the tip area. He assured me its super strong stuff.

N4712 said:

Yeah was curious about that too. The shank seemed really thin. I asked him about that and said they tried make it light as possible so all weight is at the tip area. He assured me its super strong stuff.

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Super Strong Stuff? Well, coming from Rocna, that could mean that it is made out of some material with strength ranging between titanium and pot metal, so a little specificity would be nice.

That said, I do like the looks of this design, and suspect it might perform well. It basically looks like a knock off of the Ultra/Spade so I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be a good hook.

Delfin said:

Super Strong Stuff? Well, coming from Rocna, that could mean that it is made out of some material with strength ranging between titanium and pot metal, so a little specificity would be nice.

That said, I do like the looks of this design, and suspect it might perform well. It basically looks like a knock off of the Ultra/Spade so I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be a good hook.

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I know, I know. I should have asked him what "strong material" was. After seeing the spade, the Rocna looked much better. Not trying to be bias. Just looked simpler and better. If I might add.

N4712 said:

I know, I know. I should have asked him what "strong material" was. After seeing the spade, the Rocna looked much better. Not trying to be bias. Just looked simpler and better. If I might add.

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I'm with you on the Spade. They all look like High School shop projects to me. It's why I like the Ultra, which seems to perform slightly better than the Spade, but looks ok too.

Delfin said:

I'm with you on the Spade. They all look like High School shop projects to me. It's why I like the Ultra, which seems to perform slightly better than the Spade, but looks ok too.

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Yeah I also saw the Ultra at the show, very nice anchor. We would have gotten one but the price was just too much. But man are they pretty!

Every part of it looks Spade.

Especially the ballast chamber that Rocna said was unnecessary on the roll bar anchor.
The shank is 98% Spade but not hollow w an extremely low resistance design. I think the Spade is better looking too.
The fluke is Spade-like but is kind of stupid looking w it's toilet seat ass end. Don't see any advantage.

But anchors that don't look super sometimes work well. I think Rocna had better than "well" in mind. I wonder what the'll say about why it works better? Perhaps it won't. And why shouldn't they make out of good materials this time. Don't seem to need good materials. The guy at Fisheries Supply said they sell more Rocnas than any other kind. Where's the motive? That's just one example though. Perhaps the've got a hot salesman there that is sold himself on Rocnas.

Is this an admission that the roll bar was a mistake? I'd rather see them take the ballast out and the roll bar back on and fix the two problems it has. I don't have much against the ballast but I don't like the bulky ballast container. It looks like the fwd end of a sailboat and I think the shank of a good anchor should look more like a knife ... like a Danforth perhaps.

I don't know what steel they are using on the Vulcan but I'll try to find out for you guys. The prototype we have in the booth is stainless of some sort. It looks to me that the blade is cast and the shank looks like it's forged. It's sort of an I beam. Very stiff for it's weight. The finish is very good. The welds are machine made and beautiful.

They still think the roll bar is a better anchor but there is a big market (like me) that can't carry a roll bar anchor on our bow.

manyboats said:

The fluke is Spade-like but is kind of stupid looking w it's toilet seat ass end. Don't see any advantage.

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Wait a minute, Eric. Aren't you the one who likes to apply aerodynamic principles to pieces of metal oozing through mud? If so, then the turned down back of the seat makes perfect sense. Think of it as an elevator on the back of a stabilizer. By forcing the mud flowing off the back of the spade fluke down, it raises the rear of the fluke thus forcing the front of the fluke to dive even deeper.

I don't subscribe to the fluke-as-a-wing theory, but if one does, that's how that reverse scoop back end could work.

Is this an admission that the roll bar was a mistake?

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No. Apparently even Rocna/Canadian Metals has made this clear by saying that this new anchor is indended for boaters who cannot carry a rollbar-type anchor because of their boats' pulpit configurations. I assume this is why the new anchor is being offered in weights "only" up to 88 pounds, as opposed to the several hundred pounds one can get a rollbar Rocna in. Most of the boats I'm aware of that tend to have a slotted pulpit seem to be in the 30 to 50 foot range. So a max weight of 88 pounds would seem to meet the vast majority of that particular market.

Marin wrote;
"Wait a minute, Eric. Aren't you the one who likes to apply aerodynamic principles to pieces of metal oozing through mud?"

Indeed I am. Fluid physics are the same everywhere. Bur re your comment there's much more of the TE turned up as turned down so I'm not going to give ya the point Marin. It's hard to see very well in the photo anyway. Re a previous discussion I thought that TE lip was supposed to be a RB in disguise.

Making the shank out of an "I" beam shaped cross section not only will make it stronger but look like it's stronger. The marketing part of the shank design is spot on. It will appear that Rocna has listened to the people and bellied up to the bar. The many that are drawn to Rocna will see the barricades fall away and rush down to get one. Haha it might be made of mild steel and just look stronger while Mr Smith is laughing on his way to the bank. I've never said Rocna's marketing skills were lacking.

What I really don't like about it is that bulbous mass under the fwd end of the fluke. On the Spade I think it impedes penetration and "diving" as most call it and I see no reason to think it will be any different w the Rocna. When you rip off another's design you're supposed to take the good parts of the design and change the bad. May not have been done here. I really don't see this new anchor as better than the Spade and Spade has new anchors out so is one generation ahead of Rocna. But the tractor seat fluke is a bit different and a difference can turn a dog into a star so we will wait and see. Don't see how it would perform any better in the Chesapeake Bay mud test though nor does it promise to be a short scope anchor.

Here is part of the reply I received from Rocna regarding the metal used in their anchors.

The shank of the galvanized anchors is made from a high tensile steel, and the shanks of the SS anchors are made from a high tensile stainless steel. We consider the specifics confidential.

Here is our “standard” response on requests for steel composition.

The shank is made of a high tensile steel, the blade and roll bar are made of regular steel. Canada Metal (Pacific) Limited doesn’t release technical material specifications regarding the metals used in the anchors – Canada Metal (Pacific) Limited, who have been manufacturing Rocna anchors since Sept 2011, is a world leader in specialized alloys, and considers this information to be proprietary. We are the largest manufacturer of marine anodes in the world, and supply military and marine OEM engine manufacturers – both of whom have very exacting requirements with respect to supply chain management and quality control.

Since acquiring the Rocna brand Canada Metal has overlaid the same extensive QC procedures onto the Rocna production, to the extent that we can now trace any anchor manufactured back to the raw material certificates used in its production. With this attention to detail in manufacturing, and the lifetime warranty against bending or deformation as well as manufacturing defects, you can be confident of the product.

To offer a life time warranty they must be pretty confident in their products.

HopCar said:

Here is part of the reply I received from Rocna regarding the metal used in their anchors.

The shank of the galvanized anchors is made from a high tensile steel, and the shanks of the SS anchors are made from a high tensile stainless steel. We consider the specifics confidential.

Here is our “standard” response on requests for steel composition.

The shank is made of a high tensile steel, the blade and roll bar are made of regular steel. Canada Metal (Pacific) Limited doesn’t release technical material specifications regarding the metals used in the anchors – Canada Metal (Pacific) Limited, who have been manufacturing Rocna anchors since Sept 2011, is a world leader in specialized alloys, and considers this information to be proprietary. We are the largest manufacturer of marine anodes in the world, and supply military and marine OEM engine manufacturers – both of whom have very exacting requirements with respect to supply chain management and quality control.

Since acquiring the Rocna brand Canada Metal has overlaid the same extensive QC procedures onto the Rocna production, to the extent that we can now trace any anchor manufactured back to the raw material certificates used in its production. With this attention to detail in manufacturing, and the lifetime warranty against bending or deformation as well as manufacturing defects, you can be confident of the product.

To offer a life time warranty they must be pretty confident in their products.

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Thanks for the try H/C. Apparently for some companies, simple honesty is viewed as a marketing disadvantage.

Buyer beware.

"High tensile" steel?

Can't believe it. Well if .... we believe them we can assume (loosely speaking) that there is some carbon in their steel.

The only reason I can think of for withholding the specs on the steel is that the shanks are actually mild steel as before and they are relying on the I beam shape of the shank to keep from bending. Maybe I was right about Smith laughing on the way to the bank.

Still could be a good anchor though ... but there's lots of good anchors to choose from that are far less questionable.

Delfin said:

Thanks for the try H/C. Apparently for some companies, simple honesty is viewed as a marketing disadvantage.

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Not defending Rocna/Canadian Metals per se, but if you ask us how we manage to create a one-piece composite fuselage section with all the stringers as an integral part of the shell, we're not going to tell you. If you ask us what the composition and properties are of the composites we use, we're not going to tell you. If you ask us how we achieve the indirect lighting in our new interiors, we're not going to tell you.

In fact, there is very little about how we design and manufacture our airplanes that we WILL tell you, as a member of the general public.

It's got nothing to do with honesty or even marketing. It has to do with protecting our design, materials specifications, and manufacturing processes for competitive reasons.

I would have been amazed if Rocna/Canadian Metals had stated what the exact makeup of their anchors is beyond what they said in their press release.

Marin that's a big jump ......

Jetliners to small boat anchors.

Marin said:

Not defending Rocna/Canadian Metals per se, but if you ask us how we manage to create a one-piece composite fuselage section with all the stringers as an integral part of the shell, we're not going to tell you. If you ask us what the composition and properties are of the composites we use, we're not going to tell you. If you ask us how we achieve the indirect lighting in our new interiors, we're not going to tell you.

In fact, there is very little about how we design and manufacture our airplanes that we WILL tell you, as a member of the general public.

It's got nothing to do with honesty or even marketing. It has to do with protecting our design, materials specifications, and manufacturing processes for competitive reasons.

I would have been amazed if Rocna/Canadian Metals had stated what the exact makeup of their anchors is beyond what they said in their press release.

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Asking what MPa an anchor shank steel has is not quite the same as asking for the ingredients in Coca Cola. It's like asking a mattress manufacturer if their product is stuffed with used hospital bandages and being told that information is "proprietary." It appears Smith found the perfect company to sell to - one that shares his view on the value of being forthright.

Nice try.

The Vulcan did look familiar to me, design wise, and rather than an analog of the Spade/Ultra, I think it is closer to the Oceane also made by Spade. Spade has discontinued this anchor because it sucked from a performance standpoint. The reasons why it might not work were explained by (drum roll, please) - who else but Peter Smith and Rocna. Spade and Sword anchors (Rocna Knowledge Base)

These guys such charlatans. Even if they make a good product, you really have to wonder why they behave the way they do.

manyboats said:

Marin that's a big jump ......

Jetliners to small boat anchors.

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No it's not. It's about competition, and the size and complexity of the product doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter if you decide to make jetliners or cardboard boxes, as soon as someone else decides to make jetliners or cardboard boxes, it becomes a competitive market. And you have to decide how information about your product can help or harm your ability to maintain, or gain, the edge in your market.

We have no idea of how Canadian Metals, which is a huge company with a large and diversified global product line, views information about its products. If they are like most big companies, they have a whole herd of lawyers who spend their days thinking about what might help or harm the company. And I can tell you from my own 35 years of communcations experience in a huge company with a big herd of lawyers, they almost always come down on the side of NO. In other words, don't say it, don't release it, don't talk about it, don't tell anybody.

Delfin seems to automatically assume that if a company doesn't reveal everything about their product they're trying to get away with something. And there's no question that this happens. But he, and the rest of us, know absolutely nothing about what goes on at Canadian Metals. To them, not revealing the exact specifications of the components of their products may be a company policy, a policy that's applied to all their products, not just anchors, for competitive reasons. We don't know.

The fact that the Rocna is doing very well in the market as you yourself have pointed out indicates that revealing the exact specification of the metal they use is not something they view as being important to this particular product's success. You may not like it, and Delfin may not like it, but as long as their product is successful and continues to hold its own or advance in the market against the competition, Canadian Metals is not going to care what you or Delfin happen to think.

Marin said:

Delfin seems to automatically assume that if a company doesn't reveal everything about their product they're trying to get away with something. And there's no question that this happens. But he, and the rest of us, know absolutely nothing about what goes on at Canadian Metals. To them, not revealing the exact specifications of the components of their products may be a company policy, a policy that's applied to all their products, not just anchors. We don't know.

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Hardly so. "Everything about their product" is not what was asked. I merely inquired what the strength of the shank was. Since Rocna has lied about this in the past, it seems a reasonable question. This is the equivalent of asking whether the tomatoes are organic or not. Answering that question doesn't reveal what fertilizer is used, whether they are hot house or field grown or anything else "proprietary". Not answering such a simple question is consistent with a company uncomfortable with the truth, so again, buyer beware.

If I ask Boeing how they make a complex wing I don't deserve an answer. If they want to sell me an airplane and I ask them if it will fly to 40,000 feet without imploding and their answer was "that's a secret", I'd buy Airbus. And until Rocna/CM starts acting like they don't have something to hide, my advice would be to buy from manufacturers who feel fine telling you whether the product you are purchasing meets some performance specification that exists on paper, not in the imagination of someone like Peter Smith.

The fact that they are doing well in the marketplace tells me they are doing well in the marketplace, and that there are lots of people who don't pay very close attention to the quality of what they buy. Big surprise.

Delfin said:

If I ask Boeing how they make a complex wing I don't deserve an answer. If they want to sell me an airplane and I ask them if it will fly to 40,000 feet without imploding and their answer was "that's a secret", I'd buy Airbus. And until Rocna/CM starts acting like they don't have something to hide, my advice would be to buy from manufacturers who feel fine telling you whether the product you are purchasing meets some performance specification that exists on paper, not in the imagination of someone like Peter Smith.

The fact that they are doing well in the marketplace tells me they are doing well in the marketplace, and that there are lots of people who don't pay very close attention to the quality of what they buy. Big surprise.

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That's a reasonable position and one I would not disagree with. My reponse to Eric was to give a possible reason for why Canadian Metals has chosen not to disclose the exact specifications of the anchor.

As you say, given the past fiasco with Holdfast and the initial move of production to China, I would be wary of the quality of Rocna's current lineup today were I in the market for one. I would want to know the strength of the components in terms of what kind of metal and production processes were used. And if I was unable to obtain that information, there is a distinct possibility I would buy a different product even though I think Rocna's design is the best one as far as rollbar anchors are concerned. I would probably think very hard about having a Sarca shipped in.

But the Rocna continues to garner glowing customer testimonials-- I've mentioned the experience of the sailboat owners who share our finger dock who, when sailing in the Southwestern Pacific their Rocna 20 held in storms that had everyone else in the anchorage dragging--- and as long as that continues, the anchor will continue to sell well. As you say, probably 99 percent of boaters who buy anchors are not concerned wth details like the metallurgy that was used.

The CEO of Air Malta told me a number of years ago in an interview that "perception is 50 percent of everything." Today it's problably more like 75 percent. As long as the Rocna is perceived by the market as being a superior anchor, it will continue to sell well.

As a point of interest does any other anchor manufacturer give a lifetime warranty on their anchors, which begs the second question has Rocna ever have had to make good on the warranty?

Andy G said:

As a point of interest does any other anchor manufacturer give a lifetime warranty on their anchors, which begs the second question has Rocna ever have had to make good on the warranty?

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Yes to both.

Andy G said:

As a point of interest does any other anchor manufacturer give a lifetime warranty on their anchors, which begs the second question has Rocna ever have had to make good on the warranty?

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Fortress, Mantus, Rocna, Ultra, and Anchor Right all offer a lifetime warrantee which includes bending.

The above companies will cover an anchor bent for any reason. The only usual requirement is that the anchor has to be suitable size for the boat and for some the original purchaser only.

Some, but not all, of the companies require the bent anchor is shipped back to the dealer, and the shipping costs from the dealer to you, which can be expensive, but it is still a generous offer and far better than those companies that exclude deformation.

Canada Metal Products has a long and storied history. Its well spring is Cominco which was founded early in the last century. CMP are well beyond their 20th year of across the board ISO 9000 type compliance with numerous products big and small sold into the world marketplace. Having worked closely with some of their sister companies and executives it is hard to conceive that "tiny" Rocna would be able to force them to make a lack luster metal product.

CMP can spell and do metallurgy as related to castings, shapes, forgings, weldments and anodes. Best to fuss about will the Rocna supplant the other brands of similar if not identical anchors than question the capability of CMP. The Aussies may well have a fight on their hands especially in NA with low cost freight rates and simplified logistics.

sunchaser said:

Canada Metal Products has a long and storied history. Its well spring is Cominco which was founded early in the last century. CMP are well beyond their 20th year of across the board ISO 9000 type compliance with numerous products big and small sold into the world marketplace. Having worked closely with some of their sister companies and executives it is hard to conceive that "tiny" Rocna would be able to force them to make a lack luster metal product.

CMP can spell and do metallurgy as related to castings, shapes, forgings, weldments and anodes. Best to fuss about will the Rocna supplant the other brands of similar if not identical anchors than question the capability of CMP. The Aussies may well have a fight on their hands especially in NA with low cost freight rates and simplified logistics.

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My comments did not challenge CMP's capabilities, but whether answering a question of what the shank strength is of one of their products with "it's a secret" is confidence building to possible purchasers. Michael Collins excellent book 'Built to Last' details lots of capable companies whose culture was such that honest dealings were not of particular importance. Zenith, Polaroid, Bell & Howell - these were all eminently capable companies whose culture doomed them to eventual insignificance. I have no clue whether that would be CMP's fate, but that doesn't make suggesting that their obfuscating answer to a simple question is a mark of a company culture that is incompatible with the one that drove Peter Smith's enterprise into trouble an unreasonable observation.

manyboats said:

Marin that's a big jump ......

Jetliners to small boat anchors.

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I don't think that's a long jump at all. I shoe horses... Rocket science right? And one farrier hides all of his "secrets" from everyone else in the trade locally. As small a market as there is for each design type, having knock off's (any number of them) would reduce your profits and the value of all the research you did getting it to market.

Not a long jump at all.