Do you keep a Constant Lookout?

O C Diver said:

1. I reduce speed to minimum safe steerage for the autopilot, do a 360 degree scan to confirm no contacts within 10 minutes of my course, check radar and AIS to confirm no contacts within 10 minutes of my course, and then leave the helm for 1 minute.

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I really wasn't speaking to the subject of a one minute trip to the head or to grab a bottle of water or something of that nature. In open waters with no one around I don't consider that the same as going below deck for 15 or 20 minutes or going to sleep. I guess I should have specified.

In the situation of using the head I I would do the exact same as you if other than calm conditions. If calm, I might take it out of gear for that short time.

Reiziger said:

MarkPierce started this very interresting topic at the neighbours. ...

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This started the discussion on CF:

markpierce said:

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There was another officer (a "midshipman"?) on the ship's bridge (second photo) using binoculars at the time but not pictured above.



Over cautious? Not if one mistake can ruin your career/life.

psneeld said:

I wasn't going to get underway, but the fog was supposed to have lifted and it didn't....

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They surprises me that you did that.
It's why I never leave dock depending upon a forecast.

Imho running in Fog is far more dangerous than night or day.

And

Coastal cruising is totally different than open ocean.

Lastly autopilot use, as most of us here use it, to maintain a heading, not to maintain a course, is totally different than its use ob a jetliner.

The FAA is reacting to the accidents that have occurred in recent years in which there was some doubt the pilots could fly the plane manually.

BandB said:

I really wasn't speaking to the subject of a one minute trip to the head or to grab a bottle of water or something of that nature. In open waters with no one around I don't consider that the same as going below deck for 15 or 20 minutes or going to sleep. I guess I should have specified.

In the situation of using the head I I would do the exact same as you if other than calm conditions. If calm, I might take it out of gear for that short time.

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My apologies, I thought your comment was directed at me.

Ted

Sure not having a person with competence on watch is foolhardy, but it is willingly done all the time whether by Dauntless or others. It has been the case for thousands of years. Boating lends itself, whether under sail, oars or power, to these bouts of derring do and risky solitude.

There is a certain glamour associated with risky behavior, look no further than young women lured into the clutches of guys like Elvis on the bright side to Clyde on the dark side. Solo round the worlders have competitions with sponsors shelling out millions to have their name on a sail or hull side.

Probably best that there are avenues available for solo adventure seekers. But boating is unfortunately rife with those that should have done it alone on their perilous journeys but instead lured the unsuspecting to ride along with them.

So keep watch you ask - it is a tough way to fulfill one's desires and reap adulation for the solo voyagers among us. I know some that do solo trans Pacific travels on very nice sailing vessels because competent crew (or willing fools) are not available on a timely basis. It occurs frequently. No watch kept, boat on auto pilot or self steering, perils lurking and blogs or forums which to write in for the risk averse to enjoy.

I'll bet the same people who say you can't take your eyes off the water take their eyes off the road to glance at something....

and that's traveling at 60mph plus with nearby traffic or certainly something only a second away such as the side of the road.

if you want to compare safety...compare realistic scenarios...just like driving a car, if you can visually clear the area ahead and pretty much verify that traffic can't enter from ahead or pass....it' no different than a boat.

There's always a bit of risk in either arena...but I'll bet people do things that are just as "unsafe" in the operations that they are comfortable with..they just haven't transposed them yet.

psneeld said:

I'll bet the same people who say you can't take your eyes off the water take their eyes off the road to glance at something....

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And that has become an increasing cause of accidents on the road. At one time it was just ladies fixing their makeup or dealing with the child in the seat beside or behind you. Occasionally to mess with the radio. Now toss in music players, cell phones, texting. No question open water is far more forgiving than I-95 at rush hour.

I think also we adjust style of watch to the situation. If you're heading up the inland passage to Alaska, logs are a huge part of your watch, other areas it's crab or lobster pots. Off shore it's mostly things that you first pick up at a great distance. But then suspicious boats, as in pirates, come into play in some areas. Also off shore a lot of watching is picking up something on radar at a distance and as you move in figuring out what it is, which way it's moving.

I'll tell you one part of watch and "driving" a boat that sure beats a car. I can stand and move around. Reposition. Keep myself active and alert.

O C Diver said:

My apologies, I thought your comment was directed at me.

Ted

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No, wasn't aimed at you. I grasp your need to go.

People who fear risk tend to focus on the consequences and less on the likelihood.

Northern Spy said:

People who fear risk tend to focus on the consequences and less on the likelihood.

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.....usually because they just haven't done it enough to see where the probabilities lie for "them".... not some generic model or some article written by "someone" else.....

I also hand steer. This is my final answer.

As with any task, I assess the risk and act accordingly.

Sometimes, that allows me the freedom to leave the helm for several minutes at a time while on autopilot. If I had better electronics, it may allow me to leave the helm for an hour or more in some situations.

We all boat under different conditions. Once I'm a couple hours out from my marina, traffic is very light. I often only see one boat a day when cruising. There are no crab/craypots in the open water around here. Flotsam is extremely rare.

Under those conditions, I have no problem with using the head, making a coffee, or checking the engine while underway singlehanded on autopilot.

In other conditions, I wouldn't leave the helm for a second.

Following one safety rule regardless of what the conditions are makes no sense to me.

psneeld said:

.....usually because they just haven't done it enough to see where the probabilities lie for "them".... not some generic model or some article written by "someone" else.....

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Well said, and let me add, it's not just doing, but exposure to different methods and ideas that add to our experience.

One of the things that became obvious to me when I started my learning about boats is that after I had read just about everything that talked about power boats, my attitude and what i was willing to do or not do, was significantly different than it is now.

Why is that? In large part because the stuff that's been written, is not a cross section of power boat owners, but instead a small number of well funded power boat owners who gravitated to the boat they own as a self fulfilling prophecy.

THat's what influenced me in the beginning, so I made of the the same rules that other's have quoted above, such as:
never leave the helm,
never go out on deck at night,
etc, etc

northern spy said:

people who fear risk tend to focus on the consequences and less on the likelihood.

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Bingo!!!!

psneeld said:

...it's pretty well been proven that the helmsman makes a less than perfect lookout in the big scheme of things....

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It has? By whom? And for what types pf vessels, specifically?

bligh said:

It has? By whom? And for what types pf vessels, specifically?

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The USCG and just about all vessels.

Sorry I don't have the link handy...but read enough and you'll see why the USCG and most experts have come to the same conclusion.

Ever see the bridge crew on USCG large vessels?

Helmsman, OOD, Navigator and several lookouts...all have separate requirements to not be distracted...even the "deck" and "conn" can be split between 2 people.

I routinely drove a 360' ship at speeds greater than 25 knots without ever looking to see what was in front of me. In fact not a single lookout was even posted!

Northern Spy said:

I routinely drove a 360' ship at speeds greater than 25 knots without ever looking to see what was in front of me. In fact not a single lookout was even posted!

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I don't think they have lookouts on these either...

psneeld said:

The USCG and just about all vessels.

Sorry I don't have the link handy...but read enough and you'll see why the USCG and most experts have come to the same conclusion.

Ever see the bridge crew on USCG large vessels?

Helmsman, OOD, Navigator and several lookouts...all have separate requirements to not be distracted...even the "deck" and "conn" can be split between 2 people.

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Forget about the uscg cutters and the merchant marine and the faa.

Show me a study that using an autopilot on a 20 to 50 ft boat is proven to be safer. Otherwise you should be a gentleman and retract your previous statement.

http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/electroniccollisions/default.asp
http://d6.boatingmag.com/boatingsafety/tips/safety-tip/autopilot-safety-tips
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/01/s...h-probably-on-autopilot-report-says.html?_r=0
http://www.bohrerlaw.com/blog/2014/04/autopilot-blamed-for-boater-death/
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...WCGgF_x5YiZQtzBpSMYwp1Q&bvm=bv.77880786,d.cGE
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...WPX1Mru8mPZBTmPxxS1Ln1A&bvm=bv.77880786,d.cGE
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...jRqaB-EVLTzRS44BLf_qsyg&bvm=bv.77880786,d.cGE
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...GnKwsAV7TwluUuGRMeTZqFA&bvm=bv.77880786,d.cGE
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...zihJVg_1ZsziP6Ahzks_Bsg&bvm=bv.77880786,d.cGE

Baker said:

Bingo!!!!

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I WOULD rather die from Ebola than marry Kim Kardashian!!!



HOLLYWOOD

bligh said:

Forget about the uscg cutters and the merchant marine and the faa.

Show me a study that using an autopilot on a 20 to 50 ft boat is proven to be safer. Otherwise you should be a gentleman and retract your previous statement.

Electronically Aided Collisions - Seaworthy Archives - BoatUS
Autopilot Safety Tips | Boating Safety
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/01/s...h-probably-on-autopilot-report-says.html?_r=0
Autopilot blamed for boater death | Bohrer Law Firm
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...WCGgF_x5YiZQtzBpSMYwp1Q&bvm=bv.77880786,d.cGE
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...WPX1Mru8mPZBTmPxxS1Ln1A&bvm=bv.77880786,d.cGE
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...jRqaB-EVLTzRS44BLf_qsyg&bvm=bv.77880786,d.cGE
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...GnKwsAV7TwluUuGRMeTZqFA&bvm=bv.77880786,d.cGE
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...zihJVg_1ZsziP6Ahzks_Bsg&bvm=bv.77880786,d.cGE

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Actually you first asked about my statement where the driver makes a lousy lookout....again...the USCG has said that for over decades even in small boats...

but you went on to mention autopilots and the following will address that below

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I'll only emphatically state it again...but like all things...people have to be smarter than the equipment they are using...

Look at the BoatUS article...it doesn't address the good of an autopilot...it's just a reminder article of "don't be stupid" as you still have other things to do.

Here's one of the opening lines of the last article linked to..."VANCOUVER -- The officer in charge of navigating the Queen of the North passenger ferry when it sank seven years ago ordered another crew member -- his former lover -- to switch the ferry off of autopilot shortly before it struck an island, but she says she didn't know how to do that."
Autopilots are there to take the burden of concentration of one aspect or two of driving a boat...much like cruise control in a car. If you can't handle cruise control (like I know a few people who can't)...they can contribute to an accident also...but the millions of safe drivers that use it every day aren't out there banging down the doors of car manufacturers saying how dangerous it is and it should be removed.

Now if you want to discuss a "teen lockout" on cruise control..maybe that's a good idea...so maybe a "newbie boater" lockout on autopilots might be a good idea too.

Like I said...it's not the fault of the autopilot being bad or dangerous...it's the skipper and the AP misuse.

To my way of thinking and boating, generalized statements about the need for lookout and use of autopilot are worthless. It depends completely on conditions. In many conditions the autopilot allows me to keep a much better 360 degree watch and enjoy the surroundings, including use of binoculars. In others I must have hands on the helm, radar fully deployed and a second lookout to feel at all safe. In others, somewhere in between.

90% of the time the boat is on autopilot, we have the remote control in hand to "power steer" as needed, so not really away from the helm per se.

caltexflanc said:

To my way of thinking and boating, generalized statements about the need for lookout and use of autopilot are worthless. It depends completely on conditions. In many conditions the autopilot allows me to keep a much better 360 degree watch and enjoy the surroundings, including use of binoculars. In others I must have hands on the helm, radar fully deployed and a second lookout to feel at all safe. In others, somewhere in between.

90% of the time the boat is on autopilot, we have the remote control in hand to "power steer" as needed, so not really away from the helm per se.

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...and boat speed is certainly a big factor in pushing one set of conditions to be either AP "on" or "off"...such as density of floats or debris field....

like mentioned before about comfort level....I use the AP for about 90% of the ICW where others have said it shouldn't or can't be used...leaving it on in proximity to "dangers" also increases my proximity to the "off" button and the helm.

Another factor, my autopilot is a much better helmsman than I am. I have taken the same 24 nm run a couple of dozen times in the last five years. I can see by the chart plotter tracks where I have had to hand steer versus the autopilot.The autopilot tracks are all a straight line whereas handsteering weaves back and forth along the rhumb line. In terms of distance covered I guess that while handsteering we have added a mile, two or three to the distance. In terms of diesel consumed that is enough to pay for a beer.

You better believe when I get me a boat, that joker will have autopilot! I've never seen where autopilot is dangerous.

SaltyDawg86 said:

You better believe when I get me a boat, that joker will have autopilot! I've never seen where autopilot is dangerous.

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Well when you get your boat those times when AP is dangerous will hopefully be discerned prior to rather than after the fact.

One thing to add to the autopilot discussion. Learn to use all it's features. Not long ago I was talking to a Captain with 40 years of experience who was not aware of the adjustments he could make to his autopilot. He had obviously never read the manual and never tested it's functions.

Also, know when not to use it. And use it to enhance your ability not to replace yourself at the helm.

psneeld said:

...and boat speed is certainly a big factor in pushing one set of conditions to be either AP "on" or "off"...such as density of floats or debris field....

like mentioned before about comfort level....I use the AP for about 90% of the ICW where others have said it shouldn't or can't be used...leaving it on in proximity to "dangers" also increases my proximity to the "off" button and the helm.

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Well said Paul

One of my many AP situations : winter morning lower Miss, 31 foot Ameracat, 6 paying customers, fishing charter going out offshore to Medusa rig, solid banked in fog cant see past the bow rail, typical traffic thick as he!! big tugs crabbers ships shrimpers dredges etc., Chatter on the VHF is intense and you need to know what they mean as they are looking out for you, my radar is on 1/2 mile, autopilot following a preset track that is proven safe (one of several), making 10 to 15 knots, a lookout is a waste of time as I need my deckhand watching that radar, thats his only job, I'm on the vhf and listening for signals while talking to other traffic. My customers get chastized and told to shutup and sit down until we get offshore and out of the fog. They see my intensity and concern and shutup/sitdown. The auto pilot is important.

SaltyDawg86 said:

You better believe when I get me a boat, that joker will have autopilot! I've never seen where autopilot is dangerous.

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I hope you can understand that using an autopilot with other boats nearby is very dangerous. Using an autopilot on many portions of the AICW will have you grounded in no time. Using one in an area with crab or lobster pots will have your prop tangled in line pretty quickly.

Before you buy your boat, leave the dock and flip on the autopilot, I hope you will take the time to learn about boating and safe operation of your boat.