Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

This happens occasionally when weighing the anchor on our 42 Krogen. It happens with the "swivel" pictured. I replaced the swivel with with a simple anchor shackle. It still happens about 30% of the time.

I thought it might happen when we swung around the anchor with out enough *pull force on the rode to cause the anchor to turn and reset. Like drifting around on a calm night with the tidal current but no wind to stretch the chain. Well it happened last time on a lunch break where we stayed in about the same place the whole time. No swinging.


When it happens I have to hook the fluke end, let out chain, and take the weight off the shackle to un- kink the chain. I do not look forward to doing that in a rolling seaway. Any one dealt with this? Hope the photo come through. First try at adding a picture.

not sure but why do you have the large/additional swivel on the anchor anyway? Why not just attach the anchor to the chain rhode via the U-shaped shackle with the through bolt on it that is attached directly to your anchor in the picture? *My anchor is attached to my chain rhode with just that u-shaped shackle you have in your pic without the 2nd one in your pic and I've never had an issue. *Maybe I'm missing something though.

-- Edited by Woodsong on Sunday 3rd of October 2010 10:17:49 PM

The *size *of shackle that will "spread" wide enough to allow the anchor to accept the pin will not fit thru the size chain I have. I have to step up one shackle size from chain to anchor. *I think it is 3/8th *inch to a 30kg bruce knock off anchor.

I have never understood why people use swivels on their anchor chain.

I suggest you get rid of the swivel and if you cannot spread the last chain link enough then install 2 shackles.

One on the anchor and one through the chain.

Do you realise that one side of a shackle is wider than the other.
The side with the thread is the biggest.

Allan

I don't understand. In your picture you have the U-shaped shackle mounted directly to your anchor. Just slide that shackle through your anchor with the pin side facing the rhode and then slip the chain into that and close it off. Are you saying you don't have enough room for that shackle to go around the anchor and one section of chain? If so, get a larger shackle but I can't imagine that is the case b/c if it is big enough to tie into the swivel it should be big enough to tie into the chain?

( for Allan) It present, I have just the set up you describe and am still getting the same kink. *I do think swivels are over rated and expensive.

-- Edited by xfedex on Monday 4th of October 2010 09:25:36 AM

Woodsong wrote:

I Are you saying you don't have enough room for that shackle to go around the anchor and one section of chain? If so, get a larger shackle but I can't imagine that is the case b/c if it is big enough to tie into the swivel it should be big enough to tie into the chain?

Click to expand...

A larger shackle *slides around the shank of the anchor and the pin fits through the shank *but *that size shackle will *not fit through a link of chain so... anchor to large shackle to smaller shackle to chain. I am using a common galvanized shackle. I have not looked for a thinner shackle but thin is scary when used in conjunction with anchoring the boat.

*

but that size shackle will not fit through a link of chain so...

It will if you purchase new chain in a pail.

The last link is oversized , so the proper shakle pin will fit.

Some anchors (I think Danforth) spin when going down and twist the rode. For that reason manufacturers developed the swivel. Good in theory and perhaps good in practice but I suspect some to many don't have a low enough friction to actually swivel in service. A lot of people see the swivel and think they need it because someone made it so there must be a need for it. Anchoring is mysterious enough that most people think (and rightfully so) that there must be things that only the experts know and anyone can see where there might be a need for a swivel. The swivel is in most cases a weak link and I suspect should be avoided unless one has frequent problems with twisted rodes. Then one can try the swivel and see if the problem goes away. In your case xfedx I think you could duplicate easily that hitch that your boat tied on the end of your rode on your foredeck. Anyway I think that swivel is weaker than the chain (and perhaps by quite a bit) and I'm quite sure the swivel is MUCH weaker twisted up like that so I'd recommend removing it and see if your rode twists up. Oh * ...better get that mud off before you bring it on deck.

How about an anchor swivel.
Works for me. 3 years running never a problem. Do a google search they make them in any size From connections big to small and small to big. The price bounces around from $300.00 to less than $50.00. I got the cheap one can't see loosing a $300.00 swivel on a $200.00 anchor

SD

xfedex wrote:


A larger shackle *slides around the shank of the anchor and the pin fits through the shank *but *that size shackle will *not fit through a link of chain so... anchor to large shackle to smaller shackle to chain. I am using a common galvanized shackle. I have not looked for a thinner shackle but thin is scary when used in conjunction with anchoring the boat.

Click to expand...

We had the same problem and found these shackles.

http://www.1st-chainsupply.com/attachments/misc/shackles/spa038alloy.htm

http://www.1st-chainsupply.com/attachments/misc/shackles_alloy.htm

Larry/Lena
Hobo KK42
La Paz, BCS, MX

*

I don't know why your chain is twisting, but if it comes up that way and the boat did not swing on the anchor, it must be spinning as it comes up.* As for swivels, I do know there is at least one good reason for a swivel.* On our boat, about 1/3 of the time, the anchor comes up hanging 180 degrees from the position it needs to be in when stowed.* Twisting it to the proper orientation is a real pain, and a swivel would make this much easier.* Having said that, I won't use a swivel. Within the last year, there were several letters in Latitude 38 (a sailing magazine) from cruisers that have had a swivel fail (once nearly wrecking the boat on the beach). (see the story here at the bottom of the page):

http://www.latitude38.com/lectronic/lectronicday.lasso?date=2009-06-12&dayid=284

One brand in particular was worse than others, and it was sold at West Marine.* The editor sent a letter to the manufacturer explaining about the information he had received, and as you would expect the manufacturer blamed the owners for not doing proper maintenance on the swivels.* As I remember, there was a small bolt that held it all together and if that bolt loosened, it fell apart.* I'm not sure how it all ended up, but the swivel can certainly be a weak link in the system.* The swivel in the photo looks like it's either bent or at the maximum angle of travel.* In that position, with a big load on it, it looks to me like it could fail.* If it were just chain, I don't think the yeld strength would be reduced much.* So, we simply have two shackles, and armstrong the anchor into position when needed.** ................Arctic Traveller

-- Edited by Arctic Traveller on Monday 4th of October 2010 11:52:24 AM

John
What size shackles are you using??
I go by rule of thumb
If you have 8mm chain then I would use a 10mm shackle as it is the largest that will fit the links on 8 mm short link chain
You can then use a larger shackle on the anchor
Put the pin of the shackle through the chain not the bow unless it fits and fit bow to bow

As Eric has said the swivel is definately the weakest link

Allan

While we're on shackles, is there a preference for U vs. bow shackles? What's the difference in indicated uses for both?

I've occasionally had the same problem.* I avoided it by laying out about 1.2 times the water depth in chain, backing a little bit to tug the anchor chain straight, then laying out the rest of the chain.* I think this happens when you drop the anchor and chain in a heap.

The permanent solution was a monster SunCor swivel that can't loop around like your setup has.

Hope that helps.

AllanY wrote:

I have never understood why people use swivels on their anchor chain.

Click to expand...

Me either.* We used to use a swivel in our rode as it seemed "the thing to do" but after talking to boaters in our marina who we learned anchor out a lot in all sorts of conditions, we got rid of the swivel.* No one we have met to date who has a lot of anchoring experience has a swivel in their rode, be it all-chain or combination.* A swivel is a weak point, particularly when mounted backwards as many people seem to do, which does not allow the swivel to pivot from side to side as well as "up and down" in line with the anchor shank.* Swivel pins are not designed to stand up under side loads, so if a swivel is mounted in such a way as to not let it line up with the rode at all times, there is a risk the swivel pin will break and the boat will no longer be attached to the anchor.* A number of swivels do not by their designs let them line up with the rode if the boat moves off to the side of the anchor.

We use an all-chain rode and we anchor in areas where currents and winds can rotate the boat around the anchor numerous times.* To date, we have never had a twist or kink in the rode.* This has been true with both the Bruce we used originally and the Rocna that replaced it.* Our current setup is based on the notion that the fewer components there are in the anchor rode the better.

*


-- Edited by Marin on Tuesday 5th of October 2010 11:24:16 AM

Woodsong wrote:

I don't understand. In your picture you have the U-shaped shackle mounted directly to your anchor

Click to expand...

Actually, that's the correct way to do it.* Attaching the legs of the shackle directly to the anchor shank is the wrong way to do it. (You can read about why and the Bad Thing that can happen if you do this in Earl Hinz's excellent book "The Complete Book of Anchoring and Mooring.")** I see in our marina more anchor swivels attached directly to anchors using the legs and every one of them is an accident waiting to happen.

*

Marin wrote:

*

Click to expand...

Actually, that's the correct way to do it.* Attaching the legs of the shackle directly to the anchor shank is the wrong way to do it.Please explain, as I don't have the book.* Thanks.....................Arctic Traveller

*

Most swivels-- but not all of them--- have a closed end and an open end (the end with "legs.") What a lot of people do (including me until I read Hinz's book) is attach the open end--- the two legs--- to the anchor shank. They then use a shackle to attach the chain to the closed end of the swivel. The problem with this is that attaching the two legs to the anchor shank allows the swivel to rotate in one direction only, back and forth in line with the anchor shank.

If the boat is blown or carried out of line with the anchor shank, the rode will start pulling sideways on the swivel because the swivel can't pivot sideways to line up with the rode--- all it can do is pivot back and forth in line with the anchor shank. The weak link in a swivel is the swivel pin. It is only strong when the pull is straight through it, which means the rode has to be lined up with the swivel. But since the swivel cannot pivot to line up with the rode, the pull now starts to be put sideways on the swivel pin, If the side load gets high enough--- and high enough will often be far less than it would take to break the anchor out--- the swivel pin will simply snap and your boat will no longer be connected to the anchor.

The proper way to attach a swivel to an anchor is to use a shackle between the swivel and the anchor shank. This will allow the swivel to pivot in any direction it has to in order to maintain a straight line with the rode. So the load on the swivel pin will never be sideways, it will always be straight through it.

The method recommended by Hinz is to attach the closed end of the swivel to the anchor using a shackle and attach the open end--- the legs--- to the chain.

The problem I see with the chrome-plated, bullet-shaped swivels that are quite popular is that they are apparently designed to have the open end-- the legs--- attached to the anchor. The chain goes on the other, bullet-nose end. So you've got the same problem--- the swivel can't pivot sideways to the anchor when the boat gets blown off that direction. so the strain gets put on components that aren't built to take that kind of strain.

There are fancy streamlined swivels with a pivoting feature instead of a conventional swivel pin. I assume this is to prevent the failure I described above. But the ones I've seen are very expensive.

We've decided that a swivel is unnecessary so we don't use one at all anymore.* We use a single shackle to conect the chain to the anchor and we put the round end of the shackle thorugh the anchor shank and the shackle pin through the chain.** But if you do use a swivel, make sure it's attached correctly between the rode and the anchor so it can always pivot to line up with the rode no matter which way the rode is angling in to* the anchor shank.



-- Edited by Marin on Tuesday 5th of October 2010 02:21:02 PM

Regarding shackles, beware. THere are a lot of shackles coming from China now that are not stamped with the max capacity. Therefore you dont know the real strength of that device. It might look good but might also be made with inferior material.

R.

I too have, for years, used swivels. By accident I put them on the correct way. However, I now have taken it off. I figured out that even if the boat circles the anchor a couple times , big deal. As the rode comes in it will rotate to remove any serious twist.

I became concerned after reading about some failures that it's one more possible problem area I could do without out.

As far as the anchor coming up facing the wrong way, yes that happens and swivel or no swivel it happens. The swivel, as far as I could see did nothing to prevent that, so the swivel is gone and will stay gone.

I also ensure I purchase good quality, load rated, shackles from mfgrs. like Crosby from an industrial supplier and secure the pin with some ss tie wire, Most of the stuff I've seen in the typical boat store is not what I want for my anchor gear.

C lectric wrote:
As far as the anchor coming up facing the wrong way, yes that happens and swivel or no swivel it happens.

Click to expand...

That was our experience, too, when we used a swivel.* So far as we experienced the swivel contributed nothing other than adding a potentially weak component to the anchor system.* When our anchor comes up facing the wrong way to come in over the bow roller a half twist of the anchor chain in the pulpit channel*fixes that pronto.

*

Eric, The idea that anchor rotates on the way down. It would be interesting to video but I know no one who will get in the water around here even in summer. The twist on the way down *would explain a lot. I do agree that a swivel may be the weakest link Thank you and all the other posters for their insight.

And here I thought I was the only one with the backwards facing anchor syndrome.

Dude -- The issue isn't losing the anchor, it is losing the boat. Buy the best anchor fittings your chain will accept. XTX - try using a lube on your swivel. it usually helps.

sunchaser wrote:

Dude -- The issue isn't losing the anchor, it is losing the boat. Buy the best anchor fittings your chain will accept. XTX - try using a lube on your swivel. it usually helps.

Click to expand...

Not sure I get this.
When I anchor. I am on the boat. I don't anchor in the open ocean. When I anchor, it is always someplace protected
I have a depth alarm on* the sounder.*An anchor drag on the GPS.
If my swivel breaks and I start to drift. *I will start the engine and deploy another anchor.

So to me the issue is loosing an anchor.*

I am not going to loose my boat because I loose an anchor.

Now if there was ever a need to anchor and leave the boat for an extended time. I would be concerned but for the way I use my boat.* I don't think this is an issue.
If I ever did do an ocean crossing or took off to see the world from my own boat it would not be on my current boat. 32 ft is just to small in my mind for something like that.

In the meantime the swivel does what it is supposed to do.
Keeps the chain from kinking.

SD*


-- Edited by skipperdude on Wednesday 6th of October 2010 09:54:28 AM

Tom is right Dude. TOO many things to go wrong. Picture yourself in a small anchorage, the wind's blow'in hard and you're asleep. The swivel breaks and the alarm sounds. You're boats got a lot of windage and it's head'in for the rocks fast. And it's already gone past your alarms. It's black out there so you look at the GPS * *...after you've got your eyes open. I think you've got the picture. I did that recently and kept setting the alarm circle wider and wider. Got up several times looking out in the darkness/blackness to see the beach at low tide. If the beach was one of those steep at first, shallow later I'd prolly know something about that beforehand but the details wouldn't be solid. Variables. Does your rode get twisted up? I think I'd rather not have a swivel/weak link. However a swivel for a larger rode may be stronger than any part of one's present rode. Can't see anything wrong w that but I really don't see the need for swivels. I know I'll never have that problem as my anchor line is "Brait" and is almost totally immune to twisting. Got it at Fisheries Supply.

Ok.*
*I know these things can happen. Like I said.**If I anchored somewhere other than where I boat. I would be concerned. I am a lot further north than you . during the summer it never gets dark after*Mid May till*Mid*August. Midnight sun. You know.

I just don't have enough experience with other than my home waters.*

It is just me. *I am spoiled by Prince William Sound. There is always a place to get out of any weather that may come along. I am talking bullet proof anchorages.*
*
Don't let me dissuade anybody from the ground tackle of your choice.

Different strokes. Use what suits you best.*

My biggest concerns when boating.**Is when the weather gets snotty and you have to pound*through it.

Dropping anchor is a Wheew!! Glad that is over with.

SD


*

-- Edited by skipperdude on Wednesday 6th of October 2010 11:13:52 AM

skipperdude wrote:
I have a depth alarm on* the sounder.*An anchor drag on the GPS.
If my swivel breaks and I start to drift. *I will start the engine and deploy another anchor.
*

Click to expand...

Right about the time you have to depend on electronics, they will fail.* If you said you always tie a string to your anchor and tie the other end to your big toe before you went to bed, that would be a more reliable alarm than depending on electronics to keep your butt out of trouble.

The same law that says your electronics will fail when you need them most also says your engine will fail to start when you need it most.

It's a question of risk and how much you're willing to accept.* In the cases I know of personally where people have had anchors drag, they were always on the boat and in a few instances they barely realized what was happening in time to do something about it.* In one case they had a radius alarm set in their GPS.* It didn't go off.* Fortunately one of them was a light sleeper and felt the boat's motion had changed so got up to see what was wrong.* To this day they have no idea why their GPS alarm didn't go off--- they're willing to speculate they hadn't set it properly but they think they had--- but they no longer depend on alarms when conditions are such that an anchor watch is needed.

And sometimes an alarm will do you no good at all.* If you are anchored close to shore, as is the case in many of the small, deep anchorages in the PNW, and the wind comes up and you start to drag, you'll have maybe a minute or three to do something about it.* In some cases you may be onto the shore before the alarm even goes off.

And these sorts of things never happen on a nice sunny day in calm water.* The one time we had a serious anchor drag problem it was 4:00am, the wind was howling, it was raining hard, and the waves in the bay were all nasty, steep whitecaps.* The boat was pitching and rolling all over the place.* Not the sort of environment that is conducive to setting up another anchor, not that we had the time to do this anyway in this particular situation because the shoreline was right behind us.*

Better, I think, to have the strongest, simplest anchor rode with the fewest failure points possible.

*

The stiffest winds I have anchored in were in Alaska. No waves as it was "bomb proof" but gusts to 40 knots and steady 30*over the trees for 2 days. And my swivel didn't break!!