OP
OP
Powering Hydraulics
- Thread starter MikeM
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OP
OP
MikeM
Senior Member
caltexflanc
Guru
Then you should be talking to Wesmar about the issues, then have them refer you to someone in the area who can come take a look at the exact set up. Everything you've got here from us has been pure speculation, almost none of it very useful.
Capt Nemo
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Good Morning Xsbank
Would love to see some pictures of your set-up and a little more info if possible.
Thankyou
Capt. Nemo
Would love to see some pictures of your set-up and a little more info if possible.
Thankyou
Capt. Nemo
caltexflanc
Guru
Nothing very bad happens. The pins are only for when you are servicing the units, such as the three or four year seal replacement. I once had a yard forget to remove the pins after servicing. Once I figured out what happened, diagnosing pulling them out in a seaway was not very fun, hate to imagine doing it in a cramped space; thank God they were accessed via stand up, spacious engine rooms.
Capt.Bill11
Guru
George is right, call Wesmar first.
Or these folks: Wesmar Bow Thrusters, Stern Thruster, Stabilizers, Sonar, Hydraulic Systems Distributors
I was in under the impression you had TRAC stabilizers.
sunchaser
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We never pin our Wesmars, except when hauling out. We do not run our stabilizers all the time. They always re-center when switched off (to pin position) and do not flop around as some intimate. If a hydraulic ram is leaking yes, movement when off could occur, but a hydraulic leak or ram problem would be noted and fixed presumably.
Since new (10 years) there have not been any stabilizer issues and this includes heavy weather operation. The lip seals have been replaced and serviced twice since new. Wesmar is located in the PNW. But I've heard bad things about all stabilizer mfrs., so it depends on issue and knowledge of owner/mechanic to insure happy times.
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OP
OP
MikeM
Senior Member
Capt.Bill11
Guru
Yes they recenter when powered off or when you hit the center button. But unless they are pinned they can move around once/if you loose hydraulic pressure. Hence the reason for the pins. Some systems will center the fins below a set speed so they will not interfere with your steering when docking.
FF
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>The only negative I can think of for running off the main engine is that when you want to use the thrusters, you'll probably be at idle and may have not have enough pressure without bumping up the main a bit? <
This is the usual logic for thrusters , and is an excellent idea
Cruising the AICW it is doubtful to ever need stabilizers , but if you venture out adding a pump to the main would be my choice.
At the same time I would add a hyd powered cruising generator , they are cheap and give 4KW or 6KW of house power underway .
Refrigeration is easiest done with electric , but the desalinator, scuba pump, windlass and anchor or dink hoist are great with hyd power.
With hyd an overload simply stops the motor , no white smoke ever pours out .
This is the usual logic for thrusters , and is an excellent idea
Cruising the AICW it is doubtful to ever need stabilizers , but if you venture out adding a pump to the main would be my choice.
At the same time I would add a hyd powered cruising generator , they are cheap and give 4KW or 6KW of house power underway .
Refrigeration is easiest done with electric , but the desalinator, scuba pump, windlass and anchor or dink hoist are great with hyd power.
With hyd an overload simply stops the motor , no white smoke ever pours out .
caltexflanc
Guru
That reinforces just the point I was trying to make; with no information, the OP got a bunch of completely irrelevant info.... which may still be since it is not known whether all models and installs of Wesmars are the same as yours, particularly what is on the boat in question. As saying goes, the road to hell is paved with assumptions.
As a now off-topic aside, classic Naiads will not hard self-center in the off position. When the boat is out of the water, unpinned, you can manually move the fins at will.. that's how you clean and paint them, and get them centered for pinning if they are way off. So I take it the Wesmars mentioned in the above post are not movable when the boat is out of the water?
Capt.Bill11
Guru
Actually stabilizers are nice to have in the ICW. For a couple of reasons. One, the ICW opens up in many places where it can get rough. And two, they work very well to moderate the rather violent roll you can get when a boat doesn't slow down to pass you in a narrow channel.
Capt.Bill11
Guru
The Wesmars I've dealt with behaved just like NAIADs. They were not self pinning.
Delfin
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Of course they are. Otherwise they destroy themselves in reverse.
From the Naiad website: The Auto Lock option hydraulically locks the fins in center automatically whenever the engine is not in forward gear, and when the system is turned off. The Center Lock option (standard on models 302 and larger, and included in Auto Lock) hydraulically locks the fins at center whenever the Center command is pressed. This is the same system I have on my ABT Tracs, is also standard on Wesmar, and I don't recall it being an option on my system - just a common sense engineering requirement to prevent damage.
I suppose one could buy stabilizers without auto locking, but I would wonder how many people would?
sunchaser
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They are movable if you disconnect the hydraulic ram. But, to paint around them no need to disconnect ram. You might tell the OP about your stabilizer system as he is looking for feedback from users.
Capt.Bill11
Guru
Apparently I'm not making myself clear enough for some of you. Of course they auto center when the hydraulics are working. My point was that they have to be manually pinned if the hydralic system is off or if it fails. So you couldn't just turn your Genset off if it powered your fins and be on your merry way.
And no in most cases they will not destroy them selves if you are in reverse if not centered unless you were really backing down hard and fast perhaps.
FF
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And two, they work very well to moderate the rather violent roll you can get when a boat doesn't slow down to pass you in a narrow channel.
We simply drive into the wake , bounce once and return to our heading , saves $50K and a bunch of maint , and the danger of a huge hole if we run aground.
Works for me.
We simply drive into the wake , bounce once and return to our heading , saves $50K and a bunch of maint , and the danger of a huge hole if we run aground.
Works for me.
Capt.Bill11
Guru
If you have the fins already it's a nice added benefit. And it's pretty rare for the fin/s not to break away if you hit them during a hard grounding. In fact if your boat has a keel just grounding it may do nothing to the fins.
Once you have some kind of active roll control on a boat, you might find you'd rapidly come to the conclusion that you never want to be without it.
And fins don't require a bunch of maintiance.
Capt.Bill11
Guru
What keeps them from moving when the system is off and the ram has no hydraulic pressure in it?
sunchaser
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With our hydraulic pump off the fins do not move in a seaway nor do we pin them. I assume this is the case as liquids are incompressible. That said I will mark them accurately next time to be sure my statement is accurate to the nearest millimeter.
As far as what keeps the cylinder rams from moving when the system is off, I have never torn mine down, but I can only assume the system's valving or internal glands require pressure differential to allow piston travel which is the case in my industrial experience. A leaky or failed hydraulic cylinder requires a rebuild. Air actuated cylinders are a different story as pressure bleeds off under rest.
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Scary
Guru
Niads
My Niad fins sag at the dock without the system on, Self center and lock in reverse only. I have a centering switch which can be used while docking or pinning. They have always done this. I generally turn them on as we leave and off when shut down. I've never had a problem docking with them on.
My Niad fins sag at the dock without the system on, Self center and lock in reverse only. I have a centering switch which can be used while docking or pinning. They have always done this. I generally turn them on as we leave and off when shut down. I've never had a problem docking with them on.
Capt.Bill11
Guru
Hmmm...interesting. Because with all the hydraulic fins systems I've used you could move the fins no problem if the system is off. If the fins stayed in place with the system shut down there would be no need for the manual locking pins.
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hollywood8118
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The TRAC units on the N57 I spend time on will roll back and forth if left unpinned and in a anchorage with side swell component.
HOLLYWOOD
HOLLYWOOD
sunchaser
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Post 46 should apply unless system older design or malfunction present. To be clear, travel on my stabilizer rams is very little when operating, maybe two inches or so.
How many here pin a hydraulic davit each and every time?
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Capt.Bill11
Guru
There is nothing wrong with his system nor is it necessarily old.
If you look at these pictures:
http://www.naiad.com/Product_Flyer_162-302.pdf
You'll see the black T handle on the locking pin with the retaining wire on it. It is inserted in the locking position.
And this is Wesmar's part number for their "stabilizer locking pin" 84.40001.0
So one would assume they must have a good reason for supplying a couple with every system to lock the fins in place.
The reason fins don't have check valves in them to hydraulic lock them like a davit is because its a safety feature. There can be a tremendous amount of force on the fins if the system is off for what ever reason and the boat is moving through the water or maneuvering. The back pressure that can be generated could cause a seal in a ram to blow out or another problem down the line. That and with the system powered down there is no feed back loop to tell the ram when or if the fin are still centered. So it could lock the fin in an out of center position causing maneuvering issues.
Now Wesmar does make an optional mechanical reverse lock out switch. Which is used for, "Reverse lockout switch (optional) to lock fins parallel to keel during back-down"
Now I'm guessing here but I imagine they would not need to offer this nor the locking pins if the fins hydraulically locked at center in all cases.
psneeld
Guru
Just throwing a thought in here for hydraulics..think of a rudder and how it works on a hydraulic system....I'll admit little experience with stab fins so I'll plead ignorance except for a little theory here.
While I hear many good points...it seems like there are different systems that could be employed and work in different ways.
While I hear many good points...it seems like there are different systems that could be employed and work in different ways.
