Appropriate engine for Pacific Northwest cruising?

John,You're boa * *....cruiser is better looking than a trawler, faster than a trawler and more fun than a trawler. And * ...how could it be a trawler as it's windshield is slanted aft!
I actually thought some would like to hash out a working definition but not much interest.
At least you and I have expressed an opinion of what is the most identifying element. Looks like it could be like anchors. We could scrap about it for 30 posts and all walk off w the same opinions as at the start.

nomadwilly wrote:


... you want a bigger cabin just make it bigger. ... Who knows but now it's clearly a fad. *Propane tank in a funnel? Stupid. why don't you make a propane tank container or container/deck seat? Efficiency? If you can afford to build that boat you can afford to buy all the fuel if could ever consume. My little 30' trawler has a 600 mi range. I can't imagine going 500 miles and not coming close to a place to get fuel.
I still think what makes a trawler a trawler is MASS. The lack of fads and phony stuff would be a plus. But Mark what you've got going there sure looks like a trawler.

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Shouldn't there be an emoticon for "pulling my chain"?

Well, slanted-forward windows are*also*practical because the overhanging roof provides more shade and more room for electronics stuff.* And even if it is "style," I'm not going to refuse a boat merely on that issue.*...*If the pilothouse is made bigger, where do I take the space from?*...* While a propane-tank-in-an-ersatz-smoke-stack is corny, it is a practical place to carry the propane tank rather than taking up more valuable space. ... Efficiency?* I'd rather spend $20 on fuel*for a long day's outing rather than $200.* Cost of ownership is high enough (property tax, maintenance, repairs, haul outs,*fuel, marina charges, insurance, and so on) especially after emptying one's coffers to acquire a boat.* One element favoring frequent use is minimal marginal cost.

And I agree to the extent that proper trawlers are capable of carrying substantial weights with ill-effect because of their displacement hulls.

Anyway, it's good*to know you think*my boat looks the part, and your boat is also*handsome too.



*

The forward slanting windows (also called west coast style) are more than just a fad . The benefits are two fold.
1. to reduce the amount of green water weight directly on the glass (as opposed to aft slant )
2. minimize the suns glare in the pilothouse.
although they may have been adopted to give the appearance of a trawler in some applications, they actually do have some redeeeming qualities.

Sailor of Fortune wrote:1. to reduce the amount of green water weight directly on the glass (as opposed to aft slant )

2. minimize the suns glare in the pilothouse.

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That's been my understanding......

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Sailor of Fortune wrote:

The forward slanting windows (also called west coast style) are more than just a fad . The benefits are two fold.
1. to reduce the amount of green water weight directly on the glass (as opposed to aft slant )
2. minimize the suns glare in the pilothouse.
although they may have been adopted to give the appearance of a trawler in some applications, they actually do have some redeeeming qualities.

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Perhaps just as important is the fact that they eliminate the reflected glare from inside the pilot house at night.* Things like instrament lights, radars and anything else with a light.* Seeing at night is hard enough without reflected images on the windshield.........Arctic Traveller

*

Mark,The Willy and I say thank you for the compliment.
The fwd slant WS could even be related to the popular baseball cap. Sometimes they look stupid but usually they look fine to good depending on the boat. On most boats a head sea over the bow would be moving aft mostly and a bit upward. Any sea that is so big it comes mostly from above means your'e (PI) way over your head. Most always (I think) a back slanted windshield would take less pressure * *...less of a hit. S of F * ...I sure agree on the sun glare issue. When making way into the sun I frequently hang clothing over most of my windshield, have photo grey glasses and clip-ou sunglasses too to see where I'm going.
The fwd slant WS is fine/good on most trawlers but I usually think they look or are stupid on the smaller sport boats. And they would not effect my moves on a purchase either. BUT
..... if I was to buy a Nordic Tug 32 (I really do like them) on the first day of ownership I would remove by whatever means necessary anything that resembled a ships funnel. *I despise embellishments and phony stuff. An embellishment is like the fwd end of a wood caprail that terminates like a fiddlehead fern. I think Marin's GB has them. So Mark * *...
do you agree w me to say the most identifying element of the trawler species is mass. Looks like S of F could win this one big time.

nomadwilly wrote:


So Mark * *...
do you agree w me to say the most identifying element of the trawler species is mass.

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OK, OK.* I'll agree that a relatively high mass for a given boat length is a good visual clue.

*

Forward slanting wheelhouse windows have another drawback/benefit.*They reduce the amount of*sun getting into the wheelhouse making it cold in winter and cool in summer.

Bendit wrote:

Forward slanting wheelhouse windows have another drawback/benefit.*They reduce the amount of*sun getting into the wheelhouse making it cold in winter and cool in summer.

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That's better than hot and hotter.

*

nomadwilly wrote:

...*If you can afford to build that boat you can afford to buy all the fuel if could ever consume.*...*

markpierce wrote:

...I'd rather spend $20 on fuel*for a long day's outing rather than $200.* Cost of ownership is high enough (property tax, maintenance, repairs, haul outs,*fuel, marina charges, insurance, and so on) especially after emptying one's coffers to acquire a boat.* One element favoring frequent use is minimal marginal cost...

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I'll have to go with Mark on that one!

*

A better use for fwd slanting is they will not pick up light from instruments or the chart table at night.

Weather a 5ft wave on deck is better tossed up and off or reflected back over the bow is up to how much you paid for the glass.

3/8 thick is better deflecting , 3/4 or 1 inch has a chance at reflecting.

Forward-slanting pilothouse windows orginated on vessels like the RNLI's rescue boats, North Sea trawlers (real trawlers with nets, not play-trawlers like us forum members own), and so forth that have to be able to go out in very rough seas in which they take very heavy slugs of green water directly onto the windows. Slanting the windows forward reduces the pressure of the impact, directs the water down and off the windshield, and helps make the wipers more effective. The glare thing is a bonus but the main reason is to preserve the integrity of the windshield and improve visibility by clearing the water fast. So say the RNLI folks, anyway, and I'm inclined to believe them over the marketing stylists at Nodrhavn, etc.

As to aesthetics I think forward-slanted pilothouse windows are ugly as hell and ruin the lines of every boat I've ever seen them on, but on the boats they're actually intended for aesthetics are at the bottom of the wish-list.

I don't agree with the comment that 8 or 9 knots is sufficient to deal with the currents in the PNW. We are often reduced to an SOG of 5 knots and occasionally even less when we have to run against a strong current in this area, and the farther north you go the stronger the currents get. And going somewhere at 5 knots takes a LONG damn time. Doesn't matter if your 8-knot boat is real efficient if its inability to buck a strong current adds an hour or two or three to your running time. Based on our experience, a boat that's capable of running at 12 to 15 knots is far more useful in this neck of the woods than one that's limited to 7 or 8 knots. Doesn't mean it won't work, just that you either have to plan your schedule around the currents or you have to be content with creeping along at a snail's pace if you have to travel despite the fact the current's going the wrong way.

A 26' Nordic Tug is a real small boat in term of usable space. The NT is a great design for the inside waters in this area but they have a number of drawbacks. One which my wife has noticed--- people seated in the main cabin sit so low they can barely see out the windows.

The NT is marketed as a "fast trawler" (their term, not mine). As such, it's a useful boat in this area if you like the tug styling. But to me it's only a useful boat if it's powered to take advantage of its hull configuration so you can go "fast" relatively efficiently when you need or want to. If a person likes going real slow and has no interest in going 12 or 14 knots or whatever an NT with a decent engine can go, then I think one's money might be better spent on a larger or roomier boat that has no speed pretensions in its design.

Every time you turn a corner in the Puget Sound region you trip over a Nordic Tug, so I would think that someone in the PNW could find one that meets their requirements locally for less money than buying an equivalent NT across the country and trucking it out here.

And here is a question I have asked myself occasionally but do not have an answer or even specuation for: In the 12 years we have been boating this area in our GB we have seen tons of NTs in the San Juans. But whenever we go north into BC (most recently into the southern Gulf Islands but also to Desolation Sound and, with the trailer fishing boat, into the Broughtons, Knight Inlet, etc. up the north end of Vancouver Island) we rarely and mostly never see an NT up there. In terms of production boats we see barnloads of Bayliners/Meridians, GBs, Tollys, CHBs, Island Gypsies, and things like Flemings and de Fevers. But no NTs. Why is that?

To be fair, a couple in the boating club we're in bought a new NT32 a few years ago and they've taken it up to Desolation Sound. But that's the only one I've ever heard of personally that's been up there.

-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 30th of September 2010 03:02:25 AM

"And going somewhere at 5 knots takes a LONG damn time."

Long time is relative , with the tide (and tidal currents) divided into sixths , only 2 hours will be at max flood or ebb, still 10 miles of progress , and "getting better all the time".

The auto pilot wont mutiny for a couple of extra hours.

Ever notice the glass in airport control towers always slants outward? Not just for boats.

Ever notice the glass in airport control towers always slants outward? Not just for boats.

Not too often a solid wave will wash end to end over an airport tower.

Marin wrote:"As to aesthetics I think forward-slanted pilothouse windows are ugly as hell and ruin the lines of every boat I've ever seen them on.......

I don't agree with the comment that 8 or 9 knots is sufficient to deal with the currents in the PNW......* Based on our experience, a boat that's capable of running at 12 to 15 knots is far more useful in this neck of the woods than one that's limited to 7 or 8 knots.......

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Although I don't have my boat in the PNW, I have cruised on my friend's 57'
Nordhavn (8 knots) and have found the above statements to be true. Waiting at the north or south end of the Seymour Narrows for a slack tide was a PITA, not to mention the tidal flow at Dent Island. We encountered a 52' Tiara that simply powered its way against the current at 13 knots. It was then that I decided that if I ever have a boat in this area, it will be one capable of the mid teen speeds.

*

Hi Marin,Glad your'e back mate. Yea * ... look at FFs boat. Fwd slanted windows certainly wouldn't make his boat look any better * * ...but you must admit it would look more vogue. Styles and fads. NTs ? * *...I really like them Marin. The ONLY one I want though is the 32. NTs up north??? Ever look at the Alaska cruising guide book by Douglas/Hemingway? Nordic Tugs everywhere and there's even a NT dealer in Juneau. By the way Marin I have yet to see a GB in Thorne Bay. Perhaps you don't see NTs cause your'e always looking at the GBs ?. It may come as a surprise to you but tidal currents that slow your progress are present here but far less in numbers than from Deception Pass to Queen Charlotte Sound. I can think of only 3 places off the top that would have you waiting for slack water. In the bigger channels 1 and 2 knot current is the norm. As for you Walt * ...
"Waiting at the north or south end of the Seymour Narrows for a slack tide was a PITA,"....most of the guys here would be thrilled to be up there for a few hours. Perhaps your cruising companions weren't very interesting. Just party awhile. Waiting for tides is easy waiting compared to waiting for weather to clear hanging on the hook * *...perhaps for days. And Marin we are "reduced" to 4 knots fairly often on our 6 knot boat and one would think being reduced to 1 or 2 knots would be not uncommon but it basically just dos'nt happen."people seated in the main cabin sit so low they can barely see out the windows." Yea..we have that problem on the Willy, and have a solution but so many other projects.
Glad your'e back Marin.

As far as NT not being north that is, well, not the case. We travel most years past Desolation Sound to the Broughtons and the NT are well represented there. Lots of other boats of course.

Our oddball, sort of, is a slow boat. Sure , we must pay attention to the passes. Anyone who doesn't is foolish. Yes some blow their way through but many of them find out that nature is more powerfull than their boats in rather unexpected ways. Some get lucky and pick a day, by accident, when the currents aren't strong and assume it's ok anytime.
I know a few like that who eventually got a nasty surprise.

It is not always necessary to wait for dead slack currents depending upon the strength of the currents and the size of the tide change. But that knowledge comes with some practice. It's not hard , just takes a willingness to learn.

nomadwilly wrote:By the way Marin I have yet to see a GB in Thorne Bay. Perhaps you don't see NTs cause your'e always looking at the GBs ?

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No, it's not that since I don't find GBs to be all that aesthetically appealing.* We bought one because it fit what we were willing to spend on a boat at the time (floatplane expenses make boating seem like shopping in a dollar store) and it suits what we want to do with a boat.* But neither of us consider it a particularly pretty boat.* So we actually pay little attention when we meet another GB.* So I guess we are just never anywhere where any NTs are when we're there

*

However, if we had a dollar for every Tollycraft we've seen from Puget Sound to Desolation Sound we could buy a new Fleming, a boat that makes a GB look like something I put together in the garage.


-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 30th of September 2010 12:08:45 PM

I like to think that that the forward sloping windows on Pioneer give her character and that she would look a bit strange with aft raked windows. *I am happy to*concede she's more functional than pretty.

Of course, she was a commercial fishing vessel and has covered many offshore miles in her previous lives so I guess that justifies them.

-- Edited by Bendit on Thursday 30th of September 2010 01:19:29 PM

Bendit,I agree. Slanted back would be bad but I'd prefer your's vertical. Your boat has a great deal of character and some would be lost if you changed those unusual windows. With the many other vertical lines in the other windows (many) your fwd windows do beg to be vertical.
Marin,
I don't share your opinion at all. I can't think of any other common trawler as attractive as your GB. The 42s are too long, the 32 looks boxy (it lacks the visual balance of the 36s lower aft cabin) and I don't like the slanted slab posts on the sides of the Europas. I was joke'in w ya about the Nordics.
C lectric,
How true. It's amazing how many times I've been through the rapids north of Big Bay, Greene Point and several others without having to wait. What kind of "oddball" boat do you have????

nomadwilly wrote:

*
Marin,
I don't share your opinion at all. I can't think of any other common trawler as attractive as your GB.

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Well, it's a good thing everyone's sense of aesthetics are different or we'd all be running around in the same boat.* I find the GB to be a very unbalanced design aesthetically.* The main cabin is way too tall, the aft cabin (on the aft cabin models) is way too low, the windows are ridiculously large,* the sheer line is way too shallow,*and so on. If we didn't have a*white sailing dinghy on top of our aft cabin the boat would be downright ugly.* Before we bought a GB I swore we'd never buy one I disliked the look of them so much.* Plus they're as common as Hondas around here--- you see yourself coming and going every five minutes.

Then we chartered one on the recommendation of a friend in the marine industry and found that, like a big ugly car, it did what we wanted to do quite well.* You can't see the outside of it when you're inside, so the lousy proportions aren't an annoyance underway.* Add to this the fact that GBs are very affordable (as opposed to the boats we really like, which aren't) and it was a case of not making sense to not buy one.* So we're very happy with it as it lets us do the things we want to do at a cost we're willing to spend, which balances out the fact that its aesthetics leave a lot to be desired (in our opinions).


-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 30th of September 2010 11:17:50 PM

"You can't see the outside of it when you're inside, so the lousy proportions aren't an annoyance underway. "

Sounds like a sales pitch for a BAYLINER, or some other Nike boat.

Marin wrote:
"I don't find GBs to be all that aesthetically appealing....** neither of us consider it a particularly pretty boat.....* we could buy a new Fleming, a boat that makes a GB look like something I put together in the garage."

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Come on Marin! We, at the TrawlerForum didn't fall off last year's Christmas tree!
You love your boat and the freedom and lifestyle it delivers to you & your wife. It's OK man...it's OK to say you love your boat....we all do! Now repeat after me...It's....



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-- Edited by SeaHorse II on Friday 1st of October 2010 08:54:12 AM

SeaHorse II wrote:
You love your boat and the freedom and lifestyle it delivers to you & your wife. It's OK man...it's OK to say you love your boat....we all do! Now repeat after me...It's....

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You made a few typos here but I'll correct them for you:* "You love the freedom and lifestyle it delivers to you and your wife.* It's OK to say you think your boat has lousy lines.* Now repeat after me.... It's a poor design."

There, all fixed.

*

All other posters have had good insight, especially the suggestion to look a Camano 31, which was truely designed and built to go semi-displacement speeds. With the NT, this was and after thought and they should have been either full *displacement or lighter or had more reserve bouyancy as with the keel form hull of the Camano. It is fine to go 7 knots, but if you want to go a little faster, i suggest you look at a boat clearly designed to be economical at higher speeds.

Good luck,

David

OK, I'll bite.

Marin, your boat is beautiful.* I think it looks fine.* It looks so much better than the "Sea Ray" "Sundancer" boats that are so common around here.* Those things are crap because they are made of plastic.* Your boat might have been made in Taiwan, but it still looks cool.* I know deep down you love your boat.* And don't tell me it is "old" or has "old technology"* do you "feel" good when you are underway?

Egregious wrote:

Your boat might have been made in Taiwan, but it still looks cool.* I know deep down you love your boat.* And don't tell me it is "old" or has "old technology"* do you "feel" good when you are underway?

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FWIW Grand Banks boats were never made in Taiwan. The original yard was in Kowloon, across from Hong Kong.* This yard turned out wood boats only starting in the early 1960s (or maybe even late 1950s).* In the late 60s or begining of the 7os American Marine acquired a new, larger yard in Singapore which had the space for the molds for the fiberglass versions of the Grand Banks boats.**The company continued to operate the Kowloon yard for awhile but soon closed it.***All the fiberglass GBs were made in Singapore until relatively recently when the company opened a second yard across the strait in Malaysia.* So today some Grand Banks boats (Grand Banks, Eastbay, Aleutian) are made in Singapore, some are made in Malaysia, and some are started in Singapore and then towed across to Malaysia for completion.

Also FWIW, American Marine never used the word "trawler" to describe their Grand Banks line of boats and I don't believe the current version of the company, Grand Banks, Inc, does either.* American Marine's term for*their GB line*was "Dependable Diesel Cruisers."

When we're underway we're underway.*That's all.* We like being out on the water and seeing what's going on out there.**We like the challenge of navigating and dealing with the strong currents and high tide ranges and all that.* We like that we can use the boat to get away from as many people as possible and not be tied to mobile phones and computers--- we do not use either one when we're on the boat although I sometimes use a laptop to work on my current book.* But we do not communicate with the "outside world" when we're on the boat unless it's an emergency.

But the boat itself is not part of any of this.* It's just the means to the end,*the end being the voyage itself.** Grand Banks, Krogen, deFever, Tollycraft, Nordic Tug, Fleming, Nordhavn--- it's all six of one, half dozen of the other as far as we're concerned with regards to what we want to do and experience out on the water.* The brand of boat would have no impact at all on our boating experience UNLESS it was a really crappy brand that forced us to keep screwing with the boat all the time.* In this respect the GB has been pretty good considering its extreme*age.

As I said, it's like a Honda in that it does what we want it to do while being minimally intrusive on our enjoyment of the marine environment.* As such we feel it was a sensible purchase.* Aesthetically it's a poor design in our eyes but aesthetics played no role in our reasons for buying it.

Ok, so can we all agree, that the unifying thing we all desire and admire is, (like that Honda ad used to say) "we like it because it just works"..........

nomadwilly wrote:

I agree. Slanted back would be bad but I'd prefer your's vertical. Your boat has a great deal of character and some would be lost if you changed those unusual windows. With the many other vertical lines in the other windows (many) your fwd windows do beg to be vertical.
*

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********* The wheelhouse is alloy, so surgery is unlikely....

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-- Edited by Bendit on Sunday 3rd of October 2010 01:40:29 PM