Jimmy vs. Perkins

My first post! I'm looking at two identical boats, both Canoe Cove 41's. One of them has twin Perkins 6.354's (That's the number, I think) 3100 hrs
The other has twin 6v-53n Detroit Diesels, 2600 hrs.
I know the Jimmys are loud. I haven't heard the Perkins. Both engines have excellent reputations for longevity.
Any opinions?

Thanks,
Murray

I would go with the Perkins over the 6V-53s. The 53s have had their share of problems. Perkins with clean air,fuel and oil just keep on perking.

Ron T said:

I would go with the Perkins over the 6V-53s. The 53s have had their share of problems. .

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I'm curious. What problems? They have a very long service life in general.

I love DDs. I will tell you, as most who have owned, worked with or been around DDs for any length of time, will tell you, anything else is better.

saltcod said:

My first post! I'm looking at two identical boats, both Canoe Cove 41's. One of them has twin Perkins 6.354's (That's the number, I think) 3100 hrs

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Perkins are an excellent choice. Good availability for parts. On the naturally aspirated engines, exhaust manifolds are available from aftermarket only and are about $1500 each in stainless. The turbo charged version is less and available in cast iron from Barr. What year and HP Perkins? Are they turbo charged? Yes they are quite a bit quieter than the DD's.

Peter Jung has a CC 53 and I believe he's got Jimmies. Wonderful boat and great engines. Peter has extensive experience w both the boat and the DD engines.

He is jungpeter on TF.

If you buy the boat with Perkins and they have older than 10 year mani coolers, budget replacements into the purchase price for an ASAP replacement. Not a cheap PM item.

The 4-53Ns are very good engines. How do the rest of the two vessels compare? This is equally important IMHO and should weigh heavily in the coin flips you are going through.

The 6.354 stems from the mid sixties I believe and has been put into use in for numerous different tasks; farming equipment, tractors of different shapes and manufacturers, pump engines, etc. Early ones were just above 100 HP. Engines were produced in several countries. Be aware that serial number (on early ones at least) will tell you nothing. There seems to be no way of telling model/year/plant from the serial number. Base engine parts should not be that hard to come by. Perkins is nowadays part of Caterpillar.
My previous boat had ca 1968 6.354 engines with turbo and Interooler. Port engine had a new exhaust manifold/cooler (seawater) when I bought the boat. The starboard was the original when I sold the boat a couple of years ago, making it approx. 35 years old!
Both Intercoolers were rusting/leaking when I got the boat. Kept the old bronze cores /end caps and had new shells machined out of large diameter steel tube.

If they will be run hard , near full throttle for long periods of time , the Detroits are the answer.

If its a full displacement boat where under 1/2 rated power will be normal cruise the Perkins will be OK , but still more maint.

Detroits get less efficient at low power (below 60% of the rating), but at 2-4 GPH , it wont amount to much.

Hi Saltcod,

Having owned and lived with a CC53 with DD671s for 12 years or so, I would look seriously at the CC41 you are considering with the 6V53s. Take a look at the maintenance records, have an engine survey done if you move forward, and don't discard a fine boat with fine power plants because of urban legend regarding Detroits.

I have no experience with Perkins engines, so can't contribute 1st hand information on them. However, bear in mind that maintenance by previous owners is VERY important, irregardless of engine type. Availability of parts is also important, as the routine maintenance items on all marine engines can be spendy, especially big-ticket items such as exhaust manifolds, risers, exhaust elbows, heat exchangers, etc. It's fairly straight forward to check the WWW for representative parts costs for each engine, and I think you'll find the parts for the DDs are relatively inexpensive and available, literally world wide. Someone posted that fuel injectors for DDs are found hanging on the pegs in the Ketchikan Walmart. True story. Waterpump impellers, complete water pumps, exhaust manifolds, complete in-frame rebuild kits, etc etc for most DDs are all over the WWW, at NAPAs everywhere, and Pilot gas stations in the middle of the stinking desert(!).

Are the DDs noisy? Not appreciably more so than any other equivalent engine in the same engine compartment, in the same boat, with the same muffling and engine room noise insulation. Are they less "efficient" than other diesel engines? Perhaps, if you get down into the weeds of brake specific fuel consumption as it relates to horsepower. In the real world, fuel consumption is a small fraction (<10%) of the cost of ownership of boats such as these, in typical pleasure service. Do they leak oil? Not appreciably more than any other properly maintained marine engine. The 671s have multiple blanked-off inspection ports and assembly bosses, as they were used in so many different configurations. Less so for the 6V53s. And it is possible to inspect during survey through these self-same ports such things as the condition of the piston walls, the pistons themselves, and the condition of the piston rings. Again, have a complete engine survey done if you go forward with the purchase, and you'll be money ahead.

As you can probably tell by this overly-rambling missive, I'm a fan of 2-stroke DDs. I wouldn't hesitate to own a boat with these powerplants, all things considered related to condition at purchase. Hope some of this helps.

Regards,

Pete

DD's vs Perks

Looks like a pretty even split. Thanks for the opinions. The two different boats are listed with the same broker in different cities. Same price for either boat. I've not seen the boat with Perkins yet as it is a 3 hr. drive plus 2hrs by ferry. For what it's worth, the broker has a preference for the DD's. I'm going to get in touch with a friend that is a HD mechanic with 40 years experience. He's worked with both engines I'm sure.

Peter I had hoped you'd find your way here.

A 6cyl DD has as many power strokes as a 12 cylinder 4 stroke.

The noise may be the biggest downside of the DD. A good exhaust system and good engine room isolation/insulation can control the noise. But not all boats did a good job with this. It is hard to kill that exhaust drone on a DD.

Make absolutely sure you can live with the noise.

I did some work on a Hatteras LRC with 4-53n, it had mufflers but was still too loud for my tastes. Kind of like a Harley: The noise is fun. For five minutes.

My vote is for the Perkins. Much quieter, and a lower frequency tone. Love me some old Detroit iron, but I have paid with some hearing loss.

With the Detroits if the fuel tank runs empty you can always run off the bilge lube oil.

Take a picture of an old Harley and a series Detroit (4/53, 6/71, 8/92 and so on) hang pictures on the wall. Come back 4 hours later an each will have an oil stain running down the wall.

The 41' Canoe Coves had the engines under the backdeck on V-drives so compared to another vessel with engines beneath the salon sole the noise should be lower.

Just find out and as pointed out the naturals 6v-53 should be a good engine.

The DD's are only as noisy as the boat design allows them to be.

mule said:

take a picture of an old harley and a series detroit (4/53, 6/71, 8/92 and so on) hang pictures on the wall. Come back 4 hours later an each will have an oil stain running down the wall.

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lol

They may be noisy but they are very smooth.

Having run the crap out of DD 53 series, you can expect at least 8000 hrs out of 53 series heads, 30,000 plus out of bearings. Heat ex-changers, manifolds, circulating pumps, starters and alternators, life time. Everything about them is over sized and rugged. They are very smooth, nothing shakes at idle. They also aren't that noisy up to 1800 rpm. Injection pumps and injectors rugged reliable and cheap. Mine engines are 38 years old running pretty much all original parts. Leak oil yes mine do but many don't. I've got one engine starting to start hard from cold, probably due for a valve job or new head and one that you can't hear the starter it starts so fast. 38 years is a long time running the original manifolds , heat exchangers, circulating pumps, fuel pumps , starters and alternators. I had 353's in lifts and back hoes, a 6v53 in a Dumptruck , not one time have they let me down. Don't mistake a 2ycl DD with a 2cycle gas engine. These engines run 4 exhaust valves per cyclinder, Intake ports are pressurized by a blower at about 5psi, oil is not intentionally mixed with the fuel or air. The 453's run a ballance shaft, the 3's,v6's and v8's don't need to. Fuel consumption is no different than any other diesel designed and first used in 1957. About the same age as a Chevy small block and I believe still in production by MTU.

Mule said:

Take a picture of an old Harley and a series Detroit (4/53, 6/71, 8/92 and so on) hang pictures on the wall. Come back 4 hours later an each will have an oil stain running down the wall.

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That's good.
When I was younger the screaming Detroit didn't bother me so much, but a little older I like to be able to talk to the person next to me when running the boat. IMHO. Perkins +1

I do not remember the name brand of the cherry sport fisher...but a big un., twin 8/92,s The buyer wanted DD because they will run on really shitt##y fuel. Hell it is routine to change oil and put it in the fuel tanks. She was put on a ship to East Africa. Da boy knew what he was doing.

DD's vs Perks

Still about even... I talked to a friend in the logging industry here in B.C. DD's are used extensively in boom boats, skidders etc. He said you just can't kill them. I'll talk to a friend who worked for Cullen Detroit Diesel. I'm sure he can shed any light needed on the nuances of the Jimmies.
Getting close to making an offer.

Murray

We have the "Range 4" 6354 Turbo's (200HP) in our 1986 CHB 42. What year is the Boat? Year built and HP will determine your maintenance exposure..... Be sure to have a COMPLETE engine survey by an experienced Perkins Mechanic before you purchase. Maintenance will become a nightmare if you have to replace the mani-coolers (Perkins no longer sources these and the aftermarket units are ~$5K each). Our engines have ~3600 Hrs (mani's replaced 3 years ago by PO) crank instantly and run strong with very little oil burn or smoke.....we have no mufflers and the noise level is acceptable.

DD's vs Perks

The boat is a 1976 model, DD engines are original, 2600 hrs. Not many hours for a boat of that vintage. I would never consider dumping crankcase oil into the fuel tanks, I can afford good fuel. I had a look at the engines and heard them run. They were spotless. No oil leaks apparent. Getting close to making an offer...

Murray

The DD parts will still be aviliable 40 years from now , Perekins? Doubtful.

saltcod said:

The boat is a 1976 model, DD engines are original, 2600 hrs. Not many hours for a boat of that vintage.
Murray

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Did you look at the other boat and compare them against each other and are they the same style? Is this a 41' sedan or aft cabin boat?

Don't forget you want to do a sea trial either before or contingent to an offer and run the boat up hard for 30 minutes or so and make sure it runs smoothly, normal pressures and temperatures. Recheck the engines and drip pans after the run for any signs of water or oil leaks.

If the other boat is about the same age, the Perkins engines will most likely be T6.354-M 165 - 185 HP, no manicoolers.

The manicoolers (combined multichanger) were on much later engines. Those engines were designated 6.354.4 (Range 4).

For you Perkins guys with Range 4 engines. . . Marine Exhaust Systems of Alabama (MESA Marine) is developing a complete kit to phase out the old manicooler style exchanger. They're planned for sale in 2015 and should bring the cost down substantially.

Make sure the engines are propped properly and can attain rated rpm.

Don't let anyone gloss over this issue.

Been running 1984 vintage Perkins range 4 6.354 for 8 years. Approx 2,600 hrs. No significant issues with them. One starter replacement, one alternator and a freshwater pump.
My biggest gripe is the amount of smoke they put out while warming up. Tried a few things to lessen the amount, but no change. Once they hit around 150deg. it pretty much is gone. I did install block heaters a few years ago and that has made a big difference, but I don't leave them on all the time, and it takes 4 hours or so to heat up the block enough to make a significant difference. To me, that is the trade-off of owning a 30 year old trawler that I go into for a lot less than a newer model.

Once they hit around 150deg. it pretty much is gone.

This is usually a worn out cylinders or stuck rings.

The smoke and a bit of extra oil consumption is the downside.

Mechanics are expensive , oil is cheap , with onlr 2600 hours , it will operate for another 2600 easily , but change the oil more often to help with the combustion products pushed into the crank case while it is smoking.

An oil sample on oil change might give a snapshor of the wear .

Again FF hits another home run...